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Why Be Confessional?

abacabb3

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What's the difference between this link and the "difference one vowel makes?" I believe my question still stands. How were Luther or Calvin explicitly Tradition 1 instead of Tradition 0? I ask in earnest.

I don't know anyone here espousing the position that "The Church, the creeds, and the teachings of the early fathers were all considered quaint at best." My point is, the Confessions disagree with one another, and there are different strands of tradition in the Church for certain issues, like the Sabbath, where I believe the individual conscience of the Christian is tried by putting himself back under the bondage of the Law. If this were merely my own opinion, and not one that appears to be seconded by lots of Christian men throughout history, then I would keep silent and change my mind. However, it is not, so how do we deal with this?
 
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abacabb3

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Maybe I need to look at the LBC of 1644 a little closer ;)
The preaching of the gospel to the conversion of sinners, is absolutely free; no way requiring as absolutely necessary, any qualifications, preparations, or terrors of the law, or preceding ministry of the law, but only and alone the naked soul, a sinner and ungodly, to receive Christ crucified, dead and buried, and risen again; who is made a prince and a Savior for such sinners as through the gospel shall be brought to believe on Him.
 
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hedrick

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What's the difference between this link and the "difference one vowel makes?" I believe my question still stands. How were Luther or Calvin explicitly Tradition 1 instead of Tradition 0? I ask in earnest.

Here's a brief review: Modern Reformation - Articles. However I think it's clearer in how Calvin worked: The Institutes is full of references to the Fathers. The Reformers thought they were just pruning late additions to the tradition, not rejecting it. Calvin wrote a confession. He organized a church where ministers were responsible to a larger body. He operated as if theology was a matter for the church community, and tradition was important.

don't know anyone here espousing the position that "The Church, the creeds, and the teachings of the early fathers were all considered quaint at best." My point is, the Confessions disagree with one another, and there are different strands of tradition in the Church for certain issues, like the Sabbath, where I believe the individual conscience of the Christian is tried by putting himself back under the bondage of the Law. If this were merely my own opinion, and not one that appears to be seconded by lots of Christian men throughout history, then I would keep silent and change my mind. However, it is not, so how do we deal with this?

I don't see how this is putting us under the Law. While a few Reformed bodies treat confessions almost as Law, that's not what confessionalism is for most of us. The confessions are a formal, public witness to a living tradition. We're neither legally bound to follow it at all points nor free to operate independent of it. Jesus gives the keys to Peter on behalf of the Church, not to each individual.
 
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abacabb3

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Here's a brief review: Modern Reformation - Articles. However I think it's clearer in how Calvin worked: The Institutes is full of references to the Fathers. The Reformers thought they were just pruning late additions to the tradition, not rejecting it. Calvin wrote a confession. He organized a church where ministers were responsible to a larger body. He operated as if theology was a matter for the church community, and tradition was important.

My Pastor quotes the Fathers and is informed by what they wrote. He, like Calvin, will reject what they teach when it is clearly against the Scripture (Calvin noted that the Fathers universally spoke positively about prayers for the dead, a practice he rejected apparently because of "Tradition 0" I suppose.)

I really don't see the difference.

I don't see how this is putting us under the Law. While a few Reformed bodies treat confessions almost as Law, that's not what confessionalism is for most of us. The confessions are a formal, public witness to a living tradition. We're neither legally bound to follow it at all points nor free to operate independent of it. Jesus gives the keys to Peter on behalf of the Church, not to each individual.

I was referring tot he Sabbath, sorry if I was unclear.
 
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JM

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People's positions certainly evolve after 4 decades. Does the abrogate the initial confession?


Yes. The position wasn't expressed in the First Confession clearly so they did a revision in 1646. The First Confession was based on the congregational Aberdeen Confession of 1616 and the Second Confession was based on the Savoy and WCF. The Baptists were seeking to confess the faith with one voice and struggled with how to do it. They eventually agreed with the other Reformed Christians and produced the 1677/89.

Yours in the Lord.

jm
 
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JM

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abacabb3

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I don't know the answer to the question, so let me ask. Do we know that Sabbatarianism was endorsed by the signers of the 1644, though they did not bring up the topic? Were they more split on the topic in 1644 than they were in 1689 where the Sabbatarians won out?

I forget which confession it was, but there was debate during it where certain members wanted to declare that infants couldn't be saved, but then they moved against it and added a section about elect infants. If this be the case, it is not impossible that a set of anti-sabbitarians had more way a few decades earlier and the sabbatarians won out a bit later. Even those who signed the COnfession did not enter in to it always of one mind.
 
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JM

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I don't know the answer to the question, so let me ask. Do we know that Sabbatarianism was endorsed by the signers of the 1644, though they did not bring up the topic? Were they more split on the topic in 1644 than they were in 1689 where the Sabbatarians won out?

I forget which confession it was, but there was debate during it where certain members wanted to declare that infants couldn't be saved, but then they moved against it and added a section about elect infants. If this be the case, it is not impossible that a set of anti-sabbitarians had more way a few decades earlier and the sabbatarians won out a bit later. Even those who signed the COnfession did not enter in to it always of one mind.

Sabbatarianism did ramp up in the latter part of 17th century and the movement was distinctly English. I recommend the following book on the subject.

From Sabbath to Lord's Day: A Biblical, Historical and Theological Investigation: D. A. Carson: 9781579103071: Amazon.com: Books

One review: If you can handle 400 pages and hundreds of end-notes explaining why Sunday is NOT the "new" Sabbath of the Decalogue, and have plenty of time on your hands and a burning hunger to settle issues that may seem minor or taken for granted, this book is for you!

Seriously, it tackles the subject like I've never read before, with penetrating insight into the biblical and historical meaning of the Sabbath from creation until now, and the genesis and growth of Sunday's significance from New Testament times until now. It covers the sticky subject of the purpose and relevance of the Law of Moses, and touches on other subjects as well, to reach a conclusion that is iron-clad and more relevant to worship practices than one might think. Sources are taken from any and all traditions, sacred and secular, as well as firm bible exegesis. D. A. Carson did well to lend his time and formidable name to this study. [end quote]
 
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abacabb3

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I'm honestly not really grappling with the Sabbath so much now, but to be honest, I don't think I can be consistently Confessional because of that specific issue. The splitting of the Old Testament Law into three parts, and emphasizing the Sabbath deviates from the tradition of the early Church and from what I know. The Catholic Encyclopedia observes:

The obligation of rest from work on Sunday remained somewhat indefinite for several centuries. A Council of Laodicea, held toward the end of the fourth century, was content to prescribe that on the Lord's Day the faithful were to abstain from work as far as possible. At the beginning of the sixth century St. Caesarius, as we have seen, and others showed an inclination to apply the law of the Jewish Sabbath to the observance of the Christian Sunday. The Council held at Orléans in 538 reprobated this tendency as Jewish and non-Christian. From the eight century the law began to be formulated as it exists at the present day, and the local councils forbade servile work, public buying and selling, pleading in the law courts, and the public and solemn taking of oaths.

Generally, I don't work on Sundays nor do I want to. Also, I do desire to set aside my own passions and enjoyment and focus on study, worship, and rest. However, I just don't see the Biblical justification, or consistent strand of tradition that would justify the imposition of the practice upon the Christian conscience.

This honestly does not feel to me as "Solo Scriptura." The fact that the Early Church Fathers did not make a practice of calling Sunday the Sabbath, and in fact clearly differentiated between the two days, makes it seem to me that it is a later innovation and opposed to Apostolic Tradition.
 
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AMR

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I'm honestly not really grappling with the Sabbath so much now, but to be honest, I don't think I can be consistently Confessional because of that specific issue.

Yikes!

Some history you may welcome:

Confessing the Faith in 1644 and 1689, James M. Renihan | The Reformed Reader

See also:

Reformed Baptist Theological Review
Volume: RBTR 01:2 (Jul 2004)
Article: A Sabbath Remains: The Place of Hebrews 4:9 in the New Testament’s Witness to the Lord’s Day
Author: Robert P. Martin

Christ and the Sabbath | Founders

Freedom Through Prohibition: Sabbath Observance for Lovers of Liberty | Founders
 
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abacabb3

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The two latter articles seem pretty Solo Scriptura to me, making no reference to tradition whatsoever but rather exegete the text according to the decided mind of the interpreter without any reference to tradition. The former article was already provided by JM, though it does appear to show that at least three signers of the LBC of 1644 were sabbitarians. However, it does not speak of from what line of though Reformed sabbatarianism springs from. We have a thread on this here, so I will leave it to there for discussion on that.


However, my question still remains after looking at several of your links. How are Calvin or Luther not Tradition 0 any more than my Pastor? They all consult the Church Fathers and tradition, but ultimately did not accede to any tradition from the Church that they felt could not be demonstrated from the Scriptures. For this reason, Calvin rejected prayers to the dead, as the tradition was there but it was opposed to the Scripture. How can we avoid such a conclusion without saying the word "yikes" and ignoring the serious implications?
 
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AMR

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However, my question still remains after looking at several of your links. How are Calvin or Luther not Tradition 0 any more than my Pastor?
Who has claimed your Pastor is Tradition 0? I have not.

That said, it appears your church has concluded there is nothing in Scripture about keeping the Sabbath and teaches otherwise. I think that position is in error from a Reformed Baptist and Presbyterian perspective. But that is something you have to grapple with as a member therein.

I noted in previous posts you were planning on reading the full LBCF. Have you completed this reading? Do you have access to a good commentary on the LBCF, e.g., Modern Exposition of 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith: Samuel E. Waldron: 9780852343401: Amazon.com: Books ?

Given the similarities between it and the WCF, you might also enjoy Shaw's WCF exposition:
An Exposition of the Westminster Confession of Faith

Hodge's is here:
https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=8HFUemud1pwC
 
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abacabb3

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I did finish the LBC in between phone calls and such at work (at home my reading has been 2 Samuel and Exodus, and the Psalms with my wife.) I would be in agreement with my Pastor and his fellow elder about the Sabbath, and would conclude that the LBC would be wrong on this point (or the continuation of the moral law in any way).

Hedrick make the Tradition 0 comment, which was piggy backing off of a quote from JM saying this position amounts to "Solo Scriptura." So, when you said, "As soon as someone states 'no obligation to commit myself without reservation to any man-made confession' they have in fact affirmed a confessional statement, to the contrary of their assertion," I interpreted that to mean that my pastor essentially was "solo scriptura."

So, if the above at least has some semblance of truth, my question is how is Calvin or Luther any less Solo Scriptura than the elders of my church? All of them would be informed by the tradition of the Church and their reading of the Scripture.
 
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hedrick

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However, my question still remains after looking at several of your links. How are Calvin or Luther not Tradition 0 any more than my Pastor? They all consult the Church Fathers and tradition, but ultimately did not accede to any tradition from the Church that they felt could not be demonstrated from the Scriptures. For this reason, Calvin rejected prayers to the dead, as the tradition was there but it was opposed to the Scripture. How can we avoid such a conclusion without saying the word "yikes" and ignoring the serious implications?

Tradition isn't just history. When I talk about the Reformed tradition, I mean a living tradition. So it's relevant not just whether someone looks at historical statements on the subject, but whether they do it as part of the community whose tradition it is.

The topic of this thread is really being confessional. Confessional, I claim, is about doing theology as a community. I did say your pastor looked like he was following tradition 0. But my concern was that he seemed to be looking at tradition and Scripture as an individual. I have no problem with checking tradition against Scripture. Tradition 1 can do that. But the Reformed tradition does it as a Church. If we think tradition has gone wrong, we're free to say so. But that starts a discussion within the community, and groups like presbyteries and GAs review the situation, write position papers, and in some cases adjust confessional documents.

This doesn't prohibit any individual disagreement. That surely does exist. Our denominations differ in how much variation we allow. But the primary way we do theology isn't individual; it's as a Church. Members and officers pledge to accept that process, though in my own Church the definition of what that means is fairly loose.

Saying that Sunday is the Lord's Day but not the Sabbath isn't a deal-killer for Reformed theology as a whole. As you note, there is variation within the tradition. However it may be a deal-killer for certain Reformed churches. The PCA has committed to the Westminster Confession, which represents a specific strand of Reformed thought. They also have a process for dealing with questions about it, so they have a living tradition and not just a historical reference book. I don't know whether a PCA church would accept someone who said while Sunday isn't the Sabbath, we are required to worship regularly, and churches implement that by setting up a specific day for worship and making rules to guard it. But they would have every right to exclude that if they thought it was inconsistent with their Westminster-based confessional tradition in a serious enough way.

Luther and Calvin are a difficult issue, because they thought the tradition had gone badly off the rails. That made it difficult for them to maintain continuity. However they did maintain as much of the tradition as they could. But what's more to the point, they were not just individual teachers. Calvin (who I know better than Luther) operated in Geneva, where his decisions were all subject to review by both the other ministers and the town council. He also operated as part of a broader reform movement, with which he maintained contact, and used the results of Biblical scholarship from a fairly widespread scholarly community. If you contrast him with the Radical Reformation, I think you'll see a difference. They were much less committed to continuity with as much of the tradition as possible, less likely to identify older traditions that they could return to, and much more likely to have idiosyncratic opinions rather than a carefully developed general Anabaptist position. Over time the Anabaptists developed a more coherent tradition. Today, the Moravians are probably not significantly different from the PCUSA in how they work with their own tradition. I would also never accuse them of being tradition 0.

It's actually hard to maintain tradition 0 on a consistent basis. Most people who think they are using Scripture only, and see tradition as a bad word, are in fact operating within a tradition. Or more likely, an eclectic mix of traditions. They're just not as clear about what they're doing. However my observation is that those who claim not to have a tradition tend to be following traditions that don't have as much substance behind them as the people who are acknowledged parts of major historic traditions. The same criticism could, of course, have been made of Luther and Calvin at the time they started. However I think history has judged that their work was worthy of anchoring major traditions, something that's not typically true of Pastor Jones' latest insight. At some point the difference isn't theoretical methodology, but competence.

In fact your pastor is almost certainly operating within tradition 1. I'm sure the points he's making are ones that he's heard elsewhere. He's hardly the first person to make them, and he's quite likely in fellowship with others. But the specific arguments I saw didn't seem to reflect that. But it was just a few sentences, after all.
 
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AMR

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So, when you said, "As soon as someone states 'no obligation to commit myself without reservation to any man-made confession' they have in fact affirmed a confessional statement, to the contrary of their assertion," I interpreted that to mean that my pastor essentially was "solo scriptura."
That was not my point. I perhaps was not clear, in that my point was when someone says they follow no man-made confession, they have made a self-refuting statement. Why? A man makes the statement he follows no man, yet he is himself a man. What he has done is made a confession that he follows no confession. This is double-mindedness and should not be allowed to stand unchallenged. There are many churches who claim to follow no man made creed, but when one gets settled therein they soon find creeds abounding, albeit often unwritten and homegrown, much to the observer's chagrin. The Bible teaches us to confess that which we believe. Paul often spoke of the "pattern" of his teachings. The Reformed community took notice and wrote them down such that which unites us and divides us is clearly stated for instruction, edification, and discipline. Yes, the Reformed community can err by holding these confessions up as superior to their basis, the Bible. But don't let these wayward churches lead you to believe all others do not understand the subordinate place of the confession to Holy Writ.

When anyone comes along within the Reformed community and claims "the confession is wrong" they had better be prepared to stand against the many that have come before them who would differ. We interpret in community, a community that has withstood the test of the centuries of debate about this or that finer point of the confessions. When we find ourselves outside of that community's agreement within which we have covenanted our membership, we should proceed very cautiously and prayerfully, seeking out those we should trust for instruction and discussion, searching the Scriptures, and being always open to correction.

So, if the above at least has some semblance of truth, my question is how is Calvin or Luther any less Solo Scriptura than the elders of my church? All of them would be informed by the tradition of the Church and their reading of the Scripture.
Take that up with Hedrick who made the claim and has cogently responded. ;)
 
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abacabb3

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What community did Luther or Calvin stand with explicitly? (Hedrick can answer this too :D )

My guess is my pastor's real position is that he accepts what he understands to be the actual beliefs of the Apostles. After all, that what RCCs, Arminians, Reformed Folks, EO, and all legitimate Christians really are claiming.
 
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AMR

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What community did Luther or Calvin stand with explicitly?

I am not sure if you are being flippant or honestly do not know such things. If you have a point to make I would prefer you make it plain versus what appear to me to be strategies of "Gotcha!"

By the providence of God these men, with their extraordinary gifts of teaching, stood explicitly with the community of saints in the church militant that had lost its way, beginning in the fifth century, with the outward transformation of Christianity into Romanism.

Among this community were men such as Pierre Valdo, John Wyckliffe, John Huss, Arnoldi, John of Goch, John Wessel, Nicholas Kuss, John Hilten, Johannes Reuchlin, Jerome Savanarola, as well as the early church divines, including Augustine.
 
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AMR

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My guess is my pastor's real position is that he accepts what he understands to be the actual beliefs of the Apostles. After all, that what RCCs, Arminians, Reformed Folks, EO, and all legitimate Christians really are claiming.
What does that last sentence mean? How do you distinguish the groups named from "all legitimate Christians"? Do you truly believe that the RCC and the Reformed claim the same thing? Do you think your pastor is just accepting his own understanding of the Apostolic tradition or is he checking in with what others have to say before binding his conscience?

You have a tendency to use words infelicitously and I want to be certain I am understanding your real intent.
 
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