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Why As Catholics We Ought To Reject Capitialism

cowboysfan1970

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Many people that seem to love socialism/communism/Marxism have such a poor understanding of what they really are. Read Marx and Lenin and you get a really good idea of it. Both believed that people were nothing more than expendable assets and ultimately, government property. Both thought people were fundamentally stupid and needed to be constantly controlled, by force and intimidation if necessary. People on the far left like to believe that both men were some sort of god like people who were geniuses. They think that those types of systems are some kind of utopia where people go around and say to each other "you are my brother/sister and we are completely equal!" In reality they are having a gun pointed at their heads by that government telling them to produce or else. Yeah, those systems are really nice and so much fun to live in. Maybe that's why people only try and escape from them instead of trying to get into them.
 
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SolomonVII

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Many people that seem to love socialism/communism/Marxism have such a poor understanding of what they really are. Read Marx and Lenin and you get a really good idea of it. Both believed that people were nothing more than expendable assets and ultimately, government property. Both thought people were fundamentally stupid and needed to be constantly controlled, by force and intimidation if necessary. People on the far left like to believe that both men were some sort of god like people who were geniuses. They think that those types of systems are some kind of utopia where people go around and say to each other "you are my brother/sister and we are completely equal!" In reality they are having a gun pointed at their heads by that government telling them to produce or else. Yeah, those systems are really nice and so much fun to live in. Maybe that's why people only try and escape from them instead of trying to get into them.
Even if the brutality and the total government control are taken out of the equation, the fact remains that this kind of system is not capable of generating wealth.
Unless the advent of communistic regimes somehow freakishly cause or correlate with adverse changes of the weather and crop failure, where once there were bread baskets and agricultural cornucopia, with communism comes famines unlike any that existed before.

Moralists scoff about greed. But, to the extent that people do not directly benefit from their efforts, extra effort becomes essentially of no consequence.
It is just one of the basic tenets of behavioral psychology that behavior is conditioned by being directly tied to consequences. If actually earning a living is scoffed off as bourgeois greed, extra effort is actually punished under this kind of system.
 
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SolomonVII

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Hmmmm..sounds kind of like Lee Atwater and Karl Rove...



John Kerry is the better example.


Saturday, September 25, 2010

John Kerry Portrays American Voters As Uninformed of 'Truth' Or 'Facts'



Democratic Senator John Kerry shows exactly why Democrats are projected to lose so big in the midterms, the mindset of Democrats.


A testy U.S. Sen. John F. Kerry yesterday blamed clueless voters with short attention spans for the uphill battle beleaguered Democrats are facing against Republicans across the nation.

“We have an electorate that doesn’t always pay that much attention to what’s going on so people are influenced by a simple slogan rather than the facts or the truth or what’s happening,” Kerry told reporters after touring the Boston Medical Center yesterday.​

Democratic politicians simply refuse to understand that the American people are informed, are watching them and are unhappy with the way they have ran Washington these past years and want to replace them.

No, the Democratic mindset is that the American people are simply too stupid, too "uninformed" to really know what they are talking about, to know what they want and what they do not want.

Here is a little dose of cold hard reality for Mr. Kerry from the Associated Press Polling Director Trevor Tompson, AP Deputy Polling Director Jennifer Agiesta and AP News Survey Specialist Dennis Junius on August 31, 2010.

In nine of 15 issues examined in an Associated Press-GfK Poll this month, more Americans who expressed intense interest in a problem voiced strong opposition to Obama’s work on it, including the economy, unemployment, federal deficits and terrorism. They were about evenly split over the president’s efforts on five issues and strongly approved of his direction on just one: U.S. relationships with other countries.

In another danger sign for Democrats, most Americans extremely concerned about 10 of the issues say they will vote for the Republican candidate in their local House race. Only those highly interested in the environment lean toward the Democrats.​
 
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JimR-OCDS

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Actually, Scripture describes a kingdom not communism.

I was refering to the life of early Christians.

Here it is, once again.

The community of believers was of one heart and mind, and no one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they had everything in common. Act 4:32
Jim
 
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SolomonVII

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I wish we could live like that Jim. :)
Tribal existence can be like that The idea of stealing was not even known to some First Nations, and caused more than a little trouble with European cultural contact.

In some cultures even the idea of sexual relations were non-possessive and completely shared among the community.
I believe it was the Oneida that set up their own Christian society along exactly these lines. The use of the word 'my' was completely discouraged, no my doll, my husband, my wife even.

It seemed to work quite well. Most of the children who grew up in that system have very fond memories of it, even if it did not last, just as the communal experience of the first Christian generation did not last.


The hippies of the 60's and 70's tried to replicate that kind of thing, with much less success. It had a lot to do with drugs probably, and the money and materialistic pursuits inevitably involved in that kind of lifestyle.

And also, the narcissism that has become prevalent in the 'me' generation that has been the defining value system since that time.When one values his or her own fulfillment over and above the needs of the group, the kind of relations involved in this kind of group dynamic are even more complicated than monogamous marriage—which likewise has become less and less successful in the 'me' generation.
 
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WarriorAngel

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I was refering to the life of early Christians.

Here it is, once again.
The community of believers was of one heart and mind, and no one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they had everything in common. Act 4:32

Jim
You did not just go there. This was in reference to being charitable to one another...!!!
This was in reference to the faithful helping each other...something government wants to control and end and make us rely on more government.

Russia was punished with communism.

That aside - this scripture refers to how we do not act lazy and EAT of another man's WORK - aka their OWNERSHIP.

2 Thessalonians 3:
[7] For yourselves know how you ought to imitate us: for we were not disorderly among you; [8] Neither did we eat any man's bread for nothing, but in labour and in toil we worked night and day, lest we should be chargeable to any of you. [9] Not as if we had not power: but that we might give ourselves a pattern unto you, to imitate us. [10] For also when we were with you, this we declared to you: that, if any man will not work, neither let him eat. [11] For we have heard there are some among you who walk disorderly, working not at all, but curiously meddling. [12] Now we charge them that are such, and beseech them by the Lord Jesus Christ, that, working with silence, they would eat their own bread. [13] But you, brethren, be not weary in well doing. [14] And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and do not keep company with him, that he may be ashamed: [15] Yet do not esteem him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.


http://drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=60&ch=3&l=12&f=s#x
 
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JimR-OCDS

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WarriorAngel

You did not just go there. This was in reference to being charitable to one another...!!!

Well it was more than that. As we read in the following text;

There was no needy person among them, for those who owned property or houses would sell them, bring the proceeds of the sale,
and put them at the feet of the apostles, and they were distributed to each according to need. Acts 4:34-35

This is what living in common means, and its where the term communism derives from.

I understand the difference between social communism as imposed by governments and those of communal communism as in the first Christians and monasteries.

One is totalitarianism the other is freely choosing to live in a community where everything is give over to the community.

Jim
 
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WarriorAngel

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WarriorAngel



Well it was more than that. As we read in the following text;



This is what living in common means, and its where the term communism derives from.

I understand the difference between social communism as imposed by governments and those of communal communism as in the first Christians and monasteries.

One is totalitarianism the other is freely choosing to live in a community where everything is give over to the community.

Jim

Jim, the context is so important.
The Apostles were referencing to giving of oneself in charity... by desire.
Again, the government is not our charity. Nor are we judged individually by the taxes we skirted off for the government to control.
[*Usually in a corrupt manner and filtered for many things like writing bills that all in a nation must accept illicit and immoral things.]

That aside, back to the verse - they were referring to the 'Catholics' aka Christians - helping one another.

BUT - that every man must work - and labor or they may NOT eat. For they cannot rely on their fellow members to do the work while they lay idle.

Naturally then the verse you chose means to say - that tho some work, they are unable to produce enough to eat.
That is where charity - via love - comes in.

This has nothing to do with setting up a government. Government is separate from charity... for we are to give to Caesar what is his, and to God what is His.
Charity is God's and we must not give it to Caesar.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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Jim, the context is so important.
The Apostles were referencing to giving of oneself in charity... by desire.
Again, the government is not our charity. Nor are we judged individually by the taxes we skirted off for the government to control.
[*Usually in a corrupt manner and filtered for many things like writing bills that all in a nation must accept illicit and immoral things.]

That aside, back to the verse - they were referring to the 'Catholics' aka Christians - helping one another.

BUT - that every man must work - and labor or they may NOT eat. For they cannot rely on their fellow members to do the work while they lay idle.

Naturally then the verse you chose means to say - that tho some work, they are unable to produce enough to eat.
That is where charity - via love - comes in.

This has nothing to do with setting up a government. Government is separate from charity... for we are to give to Caesar what is his, and to God what is His.
Charity is God's and we must not give it to Caesar.


The verse I used says nothing about work. It says that the believers gave over everything they owned, and it was used for the common good of all.

Read it again.

for those who owned property or houses would sell them, bring the proceeds of the sale,
and put them at the feet of the apostles, and they were distributed to each according to need.

They lived as a community of believers with each other.

They eventually had to go underground for the persecution they suffered from the Jewish leaders of the temple, then the Romans. They were essentially forced to live in common in their community of churches.

Also, the verse I believe you're refering to is from 2 Thessalonians 3:10



Jim
 
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WarriorAngel

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The verse I used says nothing about work. It says that the believers gave over everything they owned, and it was used for the common good of all.

Read it again.

for those who owned property or houses would sell them, bring the proceeds of the sale,
and put them at the feet of the apostles, and they were distributed to each according to need.

They lived as a community of believers with each other.

They eventually had to go underground for the persecution they suffered from the Jewish leaders of the temple, then the Romans. They were essentially forced to live in common in their community of churches.

Also, the verse I believe you're refering to is from 2 Thessalonians 3:10



Jim

Yes, and the Apostles were not secular leaders, but each put charity to the use of the Church - Apostles.

Which is how Christians ought to be able to live and give one to another - and not give up their work to the government.
Which is what many have been saying over and over.
The government is not the Church and yet they demand taxes off the rich to supposedly give to the poor?
Yet it doesnt happen like that.
Looking at Social security in and of itself tells us the misuse and mishandling of funds by the government is not the way to go.

HERE is the circle of money and what problems come about to make things go wonky...

Capitalism is freedom to proceed in our labors that we may gain from our work. And then, are we to go out and share our blessings from God thru charity of our Church for others...who handle the funding for our poor. AND if afforded, to all other charities for the poor.

Capitalism means freedom to pursue wealth by our labors - and not be punished for doing so.
Socialism is punishment... because it mandates what charity is and how best to use the funding that is often misused and mishandled and misappropriated according to the whims of secular authorities...often not coinciding with the Church.

Such for instance giving tax money for abortions, euthanasia, gay partner insurances and rights..well the list goes on.
The Apostles certainly would not recognize how we give through mandated government agencies.

So far the US is holding on by a thread of their Christian rights.
Though the current administration took tax deductibles and lowered the rate. Making in these hard times, less affordable for people to be able to give to charity or give less.

Incentives help the pocketbook. [so to speak] because though someone may have been willing to give a greater amount previously and had in the past they may not be able to afford giving as much since they can only deduct less.

Hypothetical:
Susie works all year so she can save to give to the poor at Christmas time.
She works to do this charitable contribution each year aside from offering to the Church.
She saves $500.00 and although she needs to keep some of the money for the bills coming in January she gives it and knows when Jan comes she can get some back while the charity gets to keep all that she gave.
So with the lower deductible amount - she now can only send $460 [or whatever] and holds back whatever she would normally get back to pay her January bills.
She comes out even, but the charity is losing income if everyone has to do this.
And middle America gives to the poor, and they are the ones who struggle most.

This is what she chooses to do above and beyond the usual amount she gives to her Church.

Now with the economy as bad as it is, she has to rethink giving anything at all. Because rumors are she and many others could lose their job because less Americans want to spend their money and save it rather than spend it because so many companies have had lay offs and ppl need extra income in the future since too many companies are losing profit and closing or laying off to meet the demands.

Charity is now suffering as middle America suffers...
While government misappropriates funding and spends it on pork and barrel.

The deficit is huge and China owns most of what we are...by aiding us.

The tax system is so tight it has tears all around the seams and is about to burst...if and when the health care reform comes into play. The middle America is now becoming dangerously close to destitute...the poor numbers are increasing and taxes must increase on middle America as well as the rich to pay off the new debt for insurance and the other unneeded spending.
AS we breach the Constitution in favor of socialism making everyone pay for mandated governmental health care laws.
Usurping the funding on Medicare by $500 billion to put into this new socialized health care.


So its not capitalism that fails, it is inflation on necessary health related items that needed capped. It is the burdening of all people to pay for some who if more entreprenuers were able to invest in healthy ventures would increase employment even for the poor.

America may have had some indigent people - who with the charity of the Churches would overcome, instead relying on government to be our charity sounding boards...still has by large the smallest number of poor and or the least poor according to other countries.
IE - our poor look like Rockefellar compared to the squalor of other countries that charities were once able to help had the donations been forth coming.

Now the donations are drying up - the poor have become poorer in other nations...as well as what will happen in this nation since Churches are also unable to receive donations in these hard times.

All for the hypothetical, inflated numbers of those without health care who often times chose to not own insurance... or were very wealthy and didnt need to buy insurance.

I for one in my 20's didnt get insurance... and didnt use health care.
And so it goes for many 20 something's who dont have the need for it... because they have less than 5% in health concerns and seldom went to visit a doctor.

And to make a nation pay for the poor thru taxation is mandating a type of socialized service.
THE BIBLE says we are to do these things - thru our Church [Apostles] and not the government.

So - thats that in a nutshell.

If we care about the poor - the government is the last establishment on earth to do the right job.

Yes, its circular.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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WarriorAngel,
forgive me, but I don't see how anything you posted relating to the government, has anything to do with what I posted.

I'm taking about the Early Christian Church, in that it was true communism.

I don't care what governents do in this context.

Jim
 
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SolomonVII

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WarriorAngel,
forgive me, but I don't see how anything you posted relating to the government, has anything to do with what I posted.

I'm taking about the Early Christian Church, in that it was true communism.

I don't care what governents do in this context.

Jim
That is of course the problem wit speaking of communism in glowing terms. The hsitorical context of the regimes of Mao, and Stalin and Pol Pot and Ho Chi Minh too now supercede anything that may have gone before.
just like someone walking down the stree with a Swatzika, people are not going to glance and think "Ah, obviously a Hindu!" Rather the immediate response will always be "hmm, yet another Neo-Nazi".


That is how you have no effectively marginalized yourself as yet another leftist who has not learnt the evils of Communism.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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SolomonVII

That is of course the problem wit speaking of communism in glowing terms.

Who's speaking of communism in glowing terms? I'm merely using the classical definition for the term, "communism," which is what the Early Christians lived by, and current religious communities and monastaries live by, per the Catholic Encyclopedia.

The hsitorical context of the regimes of Mao, and Stalin and Pol Pot and Ho Chi Minh too now supercede anything that may have gone before.
just like someone walking down the stree with a Swatzika, people are not going to glance and think "Ah, obviously a Hindu!" Rather the immediate response will always be "hmm, yet another Neo-Nazi".

Yeah, the ignorant will react this way when visiting India and seeing a family with swatzikas on their walls. I saw this reaction from a Jewish family who went to live with a Indian family of this religious form.

That is how you have no effectively marginalized yourself as yet another leftist who has not learnt the evils of Communism.

Well I lived through the cold war, and I met a priest who spent 23 years in Stalin's prisons. I know the evils of socialistic communism.

As I stated before, that isn't true communism as used by monastics and the early Church described in ACTS.

Jim
 
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JimR-OCDS

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WarriorAngel;

Yes, and the Apostles were not secular leaders, but each put charity to the use of the Church - Apostles.

What does that have to do with the definition of what true communism is?

Which is how Christians ought to be able to live and give one to another - and not give up their work to the government.
Which is what many have been saying over and over.
The government is not the Church and yet they demand taxes off the rich to supposedly give to the poor?

The government has a right to collect taxes in order to defend the nation, pay for the education and well-being of its citizens.

The government has the responsibility to take care of the poor and sick.

How else could they do it, if they didn't collect taxes?

Yet it doesnt happen like that.
Looking at Social security in and of itself tells us the misuse and mishandling of funds by the government is not the way to go.

Well I disagree. My father became disabled at age 43, when I was just 13 years old. If not for SS, we would've become destitute.

I also saw my grandparents and my mother, taken care of by Social Security.

I myself plan to retire in 3 years, which would not be possible if not for Social Security.



Capitalism is freedom to proceed in our labors that we may gain from our work. And then, are we to go out and share our blessings from God thru charity of our Church for others...who handle the funding for our poor. AND if afforded, to all other charities for the poor.

As I've stated, controlled capitalism is good, but unbridled capitalism is where the wealthy eat the poor. Take a look at Central America, where 5% of the population own all the land, and everyone else works as slaves to the whims of those land owners.

Capitalism means freedom to pursue wealth by our labors - and not be punished for doing so.


Regulated capitalism, yes. But uncontrolled capitalism, you'll be the food for the rich.

Socialism is punishment... because it mandates what charity is and how best to use the funding that is often misused and mishandled and misappropriated according to the whims of secular authorities...often not coinciding with the Church.

Same evil as unbridled capitalism. Neither of which I was speaking about in relation to the early church and monastic communities.


You seem to have a problem with the government providing for the poor and seem to think the Church could do it on her own.

The Pope, Bishops and myself, disagree.

Jim
 
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SolomonVII

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SolomonVII



Who's speaking of communism in glowing terms? I'm merely using the classical definition for the term, "communism," which is what the Early Christians lived by, and current religious communities and monastaries live by, per the Catholic Encyclopedia.



Yeah, the ignorant will react this way when visiting India and seeing a family with swatzikas on their walls. I saw this reaction from a Jewish family who went to live with a Indian family of this religious form.



Well I lived through the cold war, and I met a priest who spent 23 years in Stalin's prisons. I know the evils of socialistic communism.

As I stated before, that isn't true communism as used by monastics and the early Church described in ACTS.

Jim
Okay then....

I tried to warn you what was going to happen, but it seems like you know better.


And now it is happening..
 
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