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Why As Catholics We Ought To Reject Capitialism

SolomonVII

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Rabbi Daniel Lapin says this idea of charity, to give to someone in need with the intention that they will pay it back, or pay it forward, is charity in its truest sense. When you give to someone and take away their ability to pay it back, you destroy their soul.
That is the problem with the welfare state. "The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen" is not just some cute little axiom. People can literally become reduced to irrelevance through this kind of impersonal "charity".

This is very powerful imagery , that this destroys a person's sou;.
It is in the end worse than slavery for in slavery, one can at least see on'es existence as being useful, and a net benefit to society at large.

But to be on the receiving end of the welfare state, the message becomes clear without having to even be spoken, that such an existence is not a benefit at all, but a net drain on the whole system.
Pelosi in fact said as much when she praised contraception as a great potential way to reduce government payouts.
It is better not to be born at all, for all the good that you are going to accomplish perpetually suckling at the government teat.
More than sex or food or money even, what human nature craves most of all is a sense of accomplishment.
What good does it do then to gain the whole world and lose one's very soul?
Yes extending unemployment insurance into a two, three, four year welfare program will solve the problem of daily bread.
But we must consider the cost too.
What price can we put on the soul?
 
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Davidnic

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Rabbi Daniel Lapin says this idea of charity, to give to someone in need with the intention that they will pay it back, or pay it forward, is charity in its truest sense. When you give to someone and take away their ability to pay it back, you destroy their soul.

Indeed, to remove the ability to pay it back is a strike at dignity. As humans we have an internal desire to make right, pay back and do the same for others in charity as was done for us. I don't need the charity paid back to me...just given to another in need.

To remove the ability to return charity removes the dignity of the one in debt of love to pay it back with love. It places one in constant subordination to the other and removes the will to greater dignity for self and for all.

To remove the ability to return charity and change the station of the poor is to keep the poor as pets, ever needful of the masters largess. And the only Master we should have that kind of dependence on is a perfect one: God the source of Grace. To have that kind of dependence enforced or manipulated, even in a well meaning charity is not charity or even Christian.

The dignity of those in need must be upheld with charity and the constant love that lifts people from poverty, not just helps them to survive in it...but has, as a goal, the betterment of their lives through love.

Personally I am a Distributist, I find the balance between the personal and social nature of property the best way to bring a greater balance of dignity and an anchor for all.
 
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WarriorAngel

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What is capitalism?

Capitalism is an economic system in which the means of production are privately owned and operated for a private profit; decisions regarding supply, demand, price, distribution, and investments are made by private actors in the free market; profit is distributed to owners who invest in businesses, and wages are paid to workers employed by businesses and companies.

Capitalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We do not need to wonder if the Pope is against Communism [government owned production] ... but also they are against Socialism.

SO what is the way to produce employment wages, that house and feed families?


Catholic Resistence: Papal Quotes against Socialism

“In recent years the range of such intervention has vastly expanded, to the point of creating a new type of state, the so-called ‘Welfare State.’

Pius XI Ubi Arcano, issued in 1922:

“In view of this organized common effort towards peaceful living, Catholic doctrine vindicates to the State the dignity and authority of a vigilant defender of those divine and human rights on which the Sacred Scriptures and the Fathers of the Church insist so often. It is not true that all have equal rights in civil society. It is not true that there exists no lawful social hierarchy. Let it suffice to refer to the Encyclicals of Leo XIII, already cited, especially to that on State power, and to the other on the Christian Constitution of States. In these documents the Catholic will find the principles of reason and the Faith clearly explained and these principles will enable him to defend himself against the errors and perils of a communist conception of the State. The enslavement of man despoiled of his rights, the denial of the transcendent origin of the State and its authority, the horrible abuse of public power in the service of a collective terrorism, are the very contrary of all that corresponds with natural ethics and the will of the Creator, Who has mutually ordained them one to the other. Hence neither can be exempted from their correlative obligations, nor deny or diminish each other’s rights. The Creator Himself has regulated this mutual relationship in its fundamental lines, and it is by an unjust usurpation that communism arrogates to itself the right to enforce, in place of the divine law based on the immutable principles of truth and charity, a partisan political program which derives from the arbitrary human will and is replete with haste.”Pope Pius XI discussed the matter again in the aforementioned Divini Redemptoris

Pope Leo XIII, contained in such encyclical letters as Humanum Genus, Immortale Dei, Sapientiae Christianae, Libertas Praestimissimus, Mirare Caritatis, and Testem Benevolentiae (an apostolical letter)





Centesimus Annus in 1991:
“By intervening directly and depriving society of its responsibility, the Social Assistance State leads to a loss of human energies and an inordinate increase of public agencies, which are dominated more by bureaucratic thinking than by concern for serving their clients, and which are accompanied by an enormous increase in spending, In fact, it would appear that needs are best understood and satisfied by people who are closest to them who act as neighbors to those in need. It should be added that certain kinds of demands often call for a response which is not simply material but which is capable of perceiving the deeper human need.”
 
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ScottBot

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That is the problem with the welfare state. "The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen" is not just some cute little axiom. People can literally become reduced to irrelevance through this kind of impersonal "charity".

This is very powerful imagery , that this destroys a person's sou;.
It is in the end worse than slavery for in slavery, one can at least see on'es existence as being useful, and a net benefit to society at large.

But to be on the receiving end of the welfare state, the message becomes clear without having to even be spoken, that such an existence is not a benefit at all, but a net drain on the whole system.
Pelosi in fact said as much when she praised contraception as a great potential way to reduce government payouts.
It is better not to be born at all, for all the good that you are going to accomplish perpetually suckling at the government teat.
More than sex or food or money even, what human nature craves most of all is a sense of accomplishment.
What good does it do then to gain the whole world and lose one's very soul?
Yes extending unemployment insurance into a two, three, four year welfare program will solve the problem of daily bread.
But we must consider the cost too.
What price can we put on the soul?
In slavery, the dignity of a person to own their own self is taken away forcefully.

In welfare, the person surrenders it voluntarily. This make welfare morally worse than slavery, for it encourages a person to give up their own personal ownership in exchange for some munchies and other trinkets.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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In slavery, the dignity of a person to own their own self is taken away forcefully.

In welfare, the person surrenders it voluntarily. This make welfare morally worse than slavery, for it encourages a person to give up their own personal ownership in exchange for some munchies and other trinkets.

I feel enslaved to banks because of the money we owe for the house. :)

Slavery comes in all flavors and I think the worst form of slavery is the kind we submit to willingly. Such is concupisense...
 
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ScottBot

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I feel enslaved to banks because of the money we owe for the house. :)

Slavery comes in all flavors and I think the worst form of slavery is the kind we submit to willingly. Such is concupisense...
This is true, and biblical:

Proverbs 22:7 "The rich rules over the poor, And the borrower becomes the lender's slave."
 
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JacktheCatholic

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This is true, and biblical:

Proverbs 22:7 "The rich rules over the poor, And the borrower becomes the lender's slave."

And yet we have Catholic credit unions that seem to contribute to this???

It is confusing when I see what appear to be contradictions. After all, what is Usury and when is it a Sin?
 
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ScottBot

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And yet we have Catholic credit unions that seem to contribute to this???

It is confusing when I see what appear to be contradictions. After all, what is Usury and when is it a Sin?
With a credit union, you cannot borrow without being a member, and as a member, you are also considered a joint owner. The bigger your stake of investment (high levels of savings) the more return you get. When you borrow from a credit union, you are in effect borrowing from yourself. When the CU makes money on loan payment, it returns these profit to the CU members in dividends. (I have been a member of Navy Federal CU for 15 years now). When a bank makes profit from its fractional reserve lending system, the profits are paid in bonuses to lend makers and stockholders, not the account holders. Their ability to make money on deposits is directly tied to the interest rate paid by the Federal Reserve, which is currently at 0%, so the banks are paying nominal interest rates on deposits held in savings.

This is why Credit unions are endorsed by the Church under a form of economics known as distributism. CU members are also co-owners. Bank account holders are not.
 
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WarriorAngel

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Pope Leo XIII 28 December 1878 On Socialism

At the very beginning of Our pontificate, as the nature of Our apostolic office demanded, we hastened to point out in an encyclical letter addressed to you, venerable brethren, the deadly plague that is creeping into the very fibers of human society and leading it on to the verge of destruction; at the same time We pointed out also the most effectual remedies by which society might be restored and might escape from the very serious dangers which threaten it. But the evils which We then deplored have so rapidly increased that We are again compelled to address you, as though we heard the voice of the prophet ringing in Our ears: "Cry, cease not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet."1 You understand, venerable brethren, that We speak of that sect of men who, under various and almost barbarous names, are called socialists, communists, or nihilists, and who, spread over all the world, and bound together by the closest ties in a wicked confederacy, no longer seek the shelter of secret meetings, but, openly and boldly marching forth in the light of day, strive to bring to a head what they have long been planning—the overthrow of all civil society whatsoever.

Surely these are they who, as the sacred Scriptures testify, "Defile the flesh, despise dominion and blaspheme majesty."2 They leave nothing untouched or whole which by both human and divine laws has been wisely decreed for the health and beauty of life. They refuse obedience to the higher powers, to whom, according to the admonition of the Apostle, every soul ought to be subject, and who derive the right of governing from God; and they proclaim the absolute equality of all men in rights and duties. They debase the natural union of man and woman, which is held sacred even among barbarous peoples; and its bond, by which the family is chiefly held together, they weaken, or even deliver up to lust. Lured, in fine, by the greed of present goods, which is "the root of all evils which some coveting have erred from the faith,"3 they assail the right of property sanctioned by natural law; and by a scheme of horrible wickedness, while they seem desirous of caring for the needs and satisfying the desires of all men, they strive to seize and hold in common whatever has been acquired either by title of lawful inheritance, or by labor of brain and hands, or by thrift in one's mode of life. These are the startling theories they utter in their meetings, set forth in their pamphlets, and scatter abroad in a cloud of journals and tracts. Wherefore, the revered majesty and power of kings has won such fierce hatred from their seditious people that disloyal traitors, impatient of all restraint, have more than once within a short period raised their arms in impious attempt against the lives of their own sovereigns.
2. But the boldness of these bad men, which day by day more and more threatens civil society with destruction, and strikes the souls of all with anxiety and fear, finds its cause and origin in those poisonous doctrines which, spread abroad in former times among the people, like evil seed bore in due time such fatal fruit. For you know, venerable brethren, that that most deadly war which from the sixteenth century down has been waged by innovators against the Catholic faith, and which has grown in intensity up to today, had for its object to subvert all revelation, and overthrow the supernatural order, that thus the way might be opened for the discoveries, or rather the hallucinations, of reason alone. This kind of error, which falsely usurps to itself the name of reason, as it lures and whets the natural appetite that is in man of excelling, and gives loose rein to unlawful desires of every kind, has easily penetrated not only the minds of a great multitude of men but to a wide extent civil society, also. Hence, by a new species of impiety, unheard of even among the heathen nations, states have been constituted without any count at all of God or of the order established by him; it has been given out that public authority neither derives its principles, nor its majesty, nor its power of governing from God, but rather from the multitude, which, thinking itself absolved from all divine sanction, bows only to such laws as it shall have made at its own will. The supernatural truths of faith having been assailed and cast out as though hostile to reason, the very Author and Redeemer of the human race has been slowly and little by little banished from the universities, the Lyceums and gymnasia—in a word, from every public institution. In fine, the rewards and punishments of a future and eternal life having been handed over to oblivion, the ardent desire of happiness has been limited to the bounds of the present. Such doctrines as these having been scattered far and wide, so great a license of thought and action having sprung up on all sides, it is no matter for surprise that men of the lowest class, weary of their wretched home or workshop, are eager to attack the homes and fortunes of the rich; it is no matter for surprise that already there exists no sense of security either in public or private life, and that the human race should have advanced to the very verge of final dissolution.
3. But the supreme pastors of the Church, on whom the duty falls of guarding the Lord's flock from the snares of the enemy, have striven in time to ward off the danger and provide for the safety of the faithful. For, as soon as the secret societies began to be formed, in whose bosom the seeds of the errors which we have already mentioned were even then being nourished, the Roman Pontiffs Clement XII and Benedict XIV did not fail to unmask the evil counsels of the sects, and to warn the faithful of the whole globe against the ruin which would be wrought. Later on again, when a licentious sort of liberty was attributed to man by a set of men who gloried in the name of philosophers,4 and a new right, as they call it, against the natural and divine law began to be framed and sanctioned, Pope Pius VI, of happy memory, at once exposed in public documents the guile and falsehood of their doctrines, and at the same time foretold with apostolic foresight the ruin into which the people so miserably deceived would be dragged. But, as no adequate precaution was taken to prevent their evil teachings from leading the people more and more astray, and lest they should be allowed to escape in the public statutes of States, Popes Pius VII and Leo XII condemned by anathema the secret sects,5 and again warned society of the danger which threatened them. Finally, all have witnessed with what solemn words and great firmness and constancy of soul our glorious predecessor, Pius IX, of happy memory, both in his allocutions and in his encyclical letters addressed to the bishops of all the world, fought now against the wicked attempts of the sects, now openly by name against the pest of socialism, which was already making headway.




ETC ETC ETC
 
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JacktheCatholic

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With a credit union, you cannot borrow without being a member, and as a member, you are also considered a joint owner. The bigger your stake of investment (high levels of savings) the more return you get. When you borrow from a credit union, you are in effect borrowing from yourself. When the CU makes money on loan payment, it returns these profit to the CU members in dividends. (I have been a member of Navy Federal CU for 15 years now). When a bank makes profit from its fractional reserve lending system, the profits are paid in bonuses to lend makers and stockholders, not the account holders. Their ability to make money on deposits is directly tied to the interest rate paid by the Federal Reserve, which is currently at 0%, so the banks are paying nominal interest rates on deposits held in savings.

I think I see your reasoning... but I still feel "uncomfortable" with it. No specific reason except maybe my concern for what usury is and is not. :)

I may be a little jaded when it comes to corporations of any kind too. I tend to think they are behind many of evils in our society today and are like a living creature that takes from men with out concern for men and their welfare, only their profit margins.
 
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ScottBot

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I think I see your reasoning... but I still feel "uncomfortable" with it. No specific reason except maybe my concern for what usury is and is not. :)

I may be a little jaded when it comes to corporations of any kind too. I tend to think they are behind many of evils in our society today and are like a living creature that takes from men with out concern for men and their welfare, only their profit margins.
Well, I agree with the last part. I hate corporations. I hope God drops a flaming mountain of dog poo on every WalMart on the planet simultaneously.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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Well, I agree with the last part. I hate corporations. I hope God drops a flaming mountain of dog poo on every WalMart on the planet simultaneously.


You are too kind. Walmart does not deserve such good treatment. :D
 
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benedictaoo

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I think I see your reasoning... but I still feel "uncomfortable" with it. No specific reason except maybe my concern for what usury is and is not. :)

I may be a little jaded when it comes to corporations of any kind too. I tend to think they are behind many of evils in our society today and are like a living creature that takes from men with out concern for men and their welfare, only their profit margins.

and who provoked Jesus to the point of anger and who did He run out of the temple with whips?

The money changers, that's who.

Who are the money changers today?

I personally believe these are the evil doers the bible refers to. Not Joe Blow who may have a porn addiction (not minimizing porn addiction mind you).

I am so to the point where, it's money under a mattress for me. I no longer want to buy anything I can not pay cash for.

I'm so over the state of things...

and walmart- does anyone know what they do to get those low prices? they shake down manufacturers to give them a price other retailers can not get.

The deck is so stack against anyone else... I, I, I'm just over it.
 
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WarriorAngel

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It wasn't the money changers as themselves - but that they desecrated the Lord's house....making profit in His House.

He also took St Matthew in - and Matthew helped do the finances for them.

And it wasnt the point of making money that Matthew was a sinner - but the tax collectors then could demand so much be paid - over and above the actual tax - of the Romans.
IE - they could double or triple the tax and that was their income....which could to a point put someone in the poor house. Over burdening them... that was the sin.

Jesus does say to treat your master - the employer with respect.
 
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WarriorAngel

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Collecting taxes was a gross sin - because it was defrauding.
However; having a vineyard and paying wages agreed to - is not a sin.

Let no man eat another man's bread - so says scriptures.
The Popes understood all of this and said socialism is evil.

Capitalism is not itself evil - but that some say greed is the evil.
However; so long as competition exists - people have a choice to not purchase but go somewhere else.

And without businesses or corporations- there would be no jobs.
Just as if there was no vineyard - there would be no wages paid [a job for the laborer]... and we know a vineyard had a master who paid the wages.

But we cannot condemn or end greed - and let that be up to God so long as someone is paying others - the poor have work... what's in their hearts - the greed - God is still the King to decide what they laid up for treasure.
 
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benedictaoo

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Well. Okay then.

You can think it's okay for one person to monopolize an entire market where other people who were once self employed, have to go and be their employees for minimum wage, rather then having their own business.

The problem with Walmart is this; they shake down manufactures, the goods and the services we all want and/or need, where other folks can not compete.

If you are for this system... Well. Okay then.

Another nice tid bit about Wal Mart- they prefer to employ immigrants becuase the government subsidies their pay.

They looove to employee people with disabilities... why? Because they can take advantage of them. They can only work part time, they don't have to give them any benefits and they will never ask for a raise.

So not only do they not pay the going rate to sell in their store, but they also cheat their way out of paying their own employees.

If people would just stop going there and go and support local business, they would go away and prices would then drop on thier own because as it stand now, local owners have to hike up their prices just to keep their lights on and pay their workers and they treat their workers better and pay them better as well.
 
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WarriorAngel

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Well. Okay then.

You can think it's okay for one person to monopolize an entire market where other people who were once self employed, have to go and be their employees for minimum wage, rather then having their own business.

The problem with Walmart is this; they shake down manufactures, the goods and the services we all want and/or need, where other folks can not compete.
The shake down is consent. :wave:
If the companies that Wal Mart folds - do so out of 'greed' and agree to a settled income for goods and they lose, then who's fault is it? Really?

I dont agree with Wal Marts practices, but if all their vendors so willingly give up their regular prices to manufacture for them a said volume for a certain purchase price, then it is the one who agrees and contracts with Wal Mart that can blame only themselves when things go wonky.

Personally, it is the fear that Wal Mart offers stiff competition in that they have stores world wide and can offer the largest volumes of items and competition.

See, the manufacturers look at it this way -
Company 1 sees that company 2 is selling gross volumes that exceed their volume, by choosing to cooperate with Wal Mart. More volume sold of course looks delicious to stock holders. Therefore more stocks, more value of the company.
So company 1 agrees to the same terms as company 2 in regard to Wal Marts steep demands.

NOW if these companies would start to play hard ball... Wal Mart couldnt manipulate anyone into reaching their demands for lower costs. Helping everyone who cannot afford the sheer bulk volume [and we know bulk means less cost] - whereas Wal Mart is so big, and so global that most companies vie for their stores to offer them.

If they dont care about selling volume bulk to Wal Mart, then they should stick it out with K-Mart, Target and the likes.

It comes down to 'looking' profitable and being profitable.

If you are for this system... Well. Okay then.

Another nice tid bit about Wal Mart- they prefer to employ immigrants becuase the government subsidies their pay.

They looove to employee people with disabilities... why? Because they can take advantage of them. They can only work part time, they don't have to give them any benefits and they will never ask for a raise.

So not only do they not pay the going rate to sell in their store, but they also cheat their way out of paying their own employees.

If people would just stop going there and go and support local business, they would go away and prices would then drop on thier own because as it stand now, local owners have to hike up their prices just to keep their lights on and pay their workers and they treat their workers better and pay them better as well.
Wal Mart also hires disabled and vets because the goverment offers to subsidize them [or any company] dfor their employment.

I am not for Wal Mart [per say] - but i am for free enterprise - and free system for anyone who chooses can become an entrepeneur, and in doing so can employ others as a wage earner.
I despise socialism.

It is more than Wal Mart - but their vendors - who take the chance of working with Wal Mart only increasing their sales and volumes and what they can offer.

As for me, i shop at smaller stores that are comparable in price and i will do without rather than give into the insanity of Wal Mart - and avoid shopping Wal Mart.
I like K-Mart - Target et al.

But - the choice is there - for each company. It is all about choices.

NOW - let me go into something i do not find fair about Wal Mart...
Their clout is so powerful - that they can actually and have gotten away with this [around here anyway] - that being their store takes up the largest property in our area, they were given a certain amount of tax to pay back into the system as is fair with all the companies. A certain square foot must pay per that size.
Wal Mart squealed and said they would leave.
The township folded and gave in figuring what they were getting was better than not getting at all.

And so - it goes.
 
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ScottBot

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I'm making a special point of going to Wal Mart today. Anyone who wants to support mom-n-pop can write them a check.
Is there a particular point to this post other than to aggrevate everyone? We call this tactic in forum behavior "grenade lobbing", others call it "trolling". It is generally forbidden in the rules of conduct.
 
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