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Why As Catholics We Ought To Reject Capitialism

MoonlessNight

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But its true communism, which is my point.




In order to achieve the equitable distribution of production, you have to take from those who have more and spread it out equally to others who have less.

In other words, its the redistribution of wealth, however you want to devine that wealth.


Jim

You have quite the Humpty Dumpty approach to words in discussions, which I find to be dishonest. Every word means exactly what you mean it to mean, no more no less, and its everyone else's fault for misunderstanding you, because unfortunately we don't have access to what "true distributionism" (apparently thuggery) and "true communism" (apparently utopia) is.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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You have quite the Humpty Dumpty approach to words in discussions, which I find to be dishonest. Every word means exactly what you mean it to mean, no more no less, and its everyone else's fault for misunderstanding you, because unfortunately we don't have access to what "true distributionism" (apparently thuggery) and "true communism" (apparently utopia) is.


Actually, I provided what the dictionary defines the word "communism," to mean and also provided the Scriptural verse which showed the Early Church lived according to that definition.

Sorry, but they're not my definitions but those used in the standard English language. :p

Jim
 
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Simon_Templar

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But its true communism, which is my point.

What is true communism?

You seem to be laboring under the delusion that living together in a harmonious idyllic community equals communism. This is not true.

Communism is defined by the complete lack of personal property rights. This includes at the fundamental not only your posessions, but also your very person.
True communism is completely totalitarian, because in true communism there is not even a right of privacy, since this is in itself based on the right of ownership over your own person and your time etc.

The Church has NEVER, EVER subscribed to this idea.

Most monastic orders would not qualify as communist in any meaningful way. Even those who take vows of poverty still are not communists. The very idea of a vow of poverty is anti-communist. How you can you renounce what isn't yours in the first place.

A vow of poverty is, like a vow of celibacy, a sacrifice of a fundamental right in order to better serve God. In a vow of celibacy a person gives up their right to pursue marriage and family, that they may better serve God and the Church.
In a vow of poverty a person gives up their right to pursue material property and wealth that they may better serve God and the Church.


In order to achieve the equitable distribution of production, you have to take from those who have more and spread it out equally to others who have less.

In other words, its the redistribution of wealth, however you want to devine that wealth.

And here we get down to it. Continuing from my statements above regarding monks and the vow of poverty.

People often seem to discuss these issues purely in terms of what they think would work best to achieve the kind of society they want to see.

It seems to be utterly absent from some people's minds that they are dealing with issues of fundamental human rights.

A monk can take a vow of poverty, only because he has the right of property to begin with.
If the right of private property did not exist, vows of poverty would be meaningless. They would essentially be giving up something they never had to begin with.

When you hold up a monastery as an example of communism(which it really isn't, but laying that aside), and suggest that this means communism is Christian and something we should push for in society... what you are really saying is that you believe the government should force people to be monks. Not just some people, but all people.

The government should force people to give up their fundamental rights... whats more, not to serve God... but to serve the state... the best interests of 'the collective'.

What it all comes down to is that people have a God-given, inalienable right to own property, and to do what they desire with themselves, and their own property.

Neither you, nor any government made of men have the authority or the right to take that away. To do so is a crime against man and God.
 
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Virgil the Roman

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Monasticism is communism.

As I pointed out before.

They lived in common, which is what the word communism means.

They didn't live in Marxist or Mao's communism which socialistic communism where everyone is forced to live for the common good of the state.

Jim

No! Monasticism is communal in character and nature; not communistic. There is a significant difference. It is a false to assert, that the Early Church is, in anyway, "communist."
 
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SolomonVII

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No! Monasticism is communal in character and nature; not communistic. There is a significant difference. It is a false to assert, that the Early Church is, in anyway, "communist."
Monasteries are all privately owned, and often private enterprises as well.
 
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Virgil the Roman

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Monasteries are all privately owned, and often private enterprises as well.
Exactly. They are "communal" in life, although, hierarchical; however, economically, they are not "communistic" nor are they such, socially.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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Simon_Templar

What is true communism?

You seem to be laboring under the delusion that living together in a harmonious idyllic community equals communism. This is not true.

You've misunderstood what I have posted.

Communism is where everything is held in common. No one actually owns property, it all belongs to the community of people.

Communism is defined by the complete lack of personal property rights. This includes at the fundamental not only your possessions, but also your very person.

Partly true. It doesn't mean you don't own your very person, and it doesn't mean you don't have possessions in your keeping.

A monastery a monk is still and individual. However, he doesn't own his cell, nor the food he eats. He works for the good of the community sharing everything he has. However, he does have his breviary, rosary beads and clothing he wears as do all the other monks.

True communism is completely totalitarian, because in true communism there is not even a right of privacy, since this is in itself based on the right of ownership over your own person and your time etc.

That's not true communism but, Marxist Socialistic Communism. In this form of communism, the individual does not count, only the state. Also, the individual doesn't volunteer to live under this form of communism, but is forced to. The state decides what he will become and what to believe.

The Church has NEVER, EVER subscribed to this idea.

The Church has never subscribed to Socialist Communism. But in monasteries and convents, its communism in its true meaning be
lived out.

Most monastic orders would not qualify as communist in any meaningful way. Even those who take vows of poverty still are not communists. The very idea of a vow of poverty is anti-communist. How you can you renounce what isn't yours in the first place.

Again, lets look at the definition of "communism."

com·mu·nism

noun
1. a theory or system of social organization based on the holding of all property in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state.



Monks do not own property, except which is allowed by the order. Everything is held in common by the monastic community.


A vow of poverty is, like a vow of celibacy, a sacrifice of a fundamental right in order to better serve God. In a vow of celibacy a person gives up their right to pursue marriage and family, that they may better serve God and the Church.


In a vow of poverty a person gives up their right to pursue material property and wealth that they may better serve God and the Church.

A vow of poverty is actually a vow of poverty of spirit. The individual doesn't seek material wealth, but it doesn't exclude him from receiving it
should it come to him. Its also not a vow of destitution.

In a monastic situation, whatever wealth the monk receives, is turned over to the community.

And here we get down to it. Continuing from my statements above regarding monks and the vow of poverty.

Your confusing a vow of poverty with the living "condition" of monastic life, which is true communism.


A monk can take a vow of poverty, only because he has the right of property to begin with.

The monk has no right to property in the monastery. His vow of poverty is a vow of poverty of spirit in that everything is from God and he does not attach himself to whatever is given to him. He freely turns over to the community, whatever he receives.

The big difference between the monastic form of communism and that of social communism, is that the monk has chosen the lifestyle and can leave if he wishes.

Not so state controlled communism, which is forced.

If the right of private property did not exist, vows of poverty would be meaningless. They would essentially be giving up something they never had to begin with.

Again, the vow of poverty is a vow of spiritual poverty, not what a person has in their possession or not.

The spiritual assistant of my OCDS group in explaining this, told the story of a Carmelite Nun, who had in her breviary, a holy picture of the Holy Family. She loved this picture very much and had it in her possession for over thirty years. One day a novice saw the picture and said, "Oh what a beautiful picture of the Holy Family." The elder nun, out of spiritual poverty, immediately gave the picture to the novice.

The vow of poverty is a vow of detachment.

In all, you're confusing Marxist Communism, with true communism which is usual for many people in today's world, who only understand the meaning of communism based on Social Communism as they saw in the Soviet Union and Red China. Both of those situations were not true communism by definition.


Jim
 
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JimR-OCDS

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Monasteries are all privately owned, and often private enterprises as well.


But the individual monk doesn't own the monastery. The individual lives in common with his fellow monks. He turns over to the community, all he receives.

In fact in the old days, a man had to turn over his property in order to enter a monastery.

Girls had to have a dowry to hand over to the convent or they weren't accepted.

Bernadette Subirous had no dowry and as a result, never thought she could become a nun. However, her pastor, after accepting Bernadette's account of visions from the Blessed Mother, got her into the convent at Nevers. Some believe the pastor paid her dowry.

Jim
 
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JimR-OCDS

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No! Monasticism is communal in character and nature; not communistic. There is a significant difference. It is a false to assert, that the Early Church is, in anyway, "communist."


Communal living in a monastery is living with everything being held in common, aka communism.

Not all communal living is communism. Senior community centers and even existing communes around the world, are not communism, yet they are communal life styles.


Jim
 
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ScottBot

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Communal living in a monastery is living with everything being held in common, aka communism.

Not all communal living is communism. Senior community centers and even existing communes around the world, are not communism, yet they are communal life styles.


Jim
You are missing the point. In COMMUNISM, there is no such thing as private property. You don't even own the rights to your own self. You are owned by the collective. In COMMUNALISM, the member surrenders his/her personal property to the community, but still enjoys ownership of himself. The community respects the communal member's right of personal ownership. This idea does not exist in communism.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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I should've went here to begin with.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia

Hope this helps.

In its more general signification communism refers to any social system in which all property, or at least all productive property, is owned by the group, or community, instead of by individuals.

and
Its use to designate merely common ownership of capital is for the most part confined to the uninformed, and to those who seek to injure socialism by giving it a bad name.

In all;

Most of the religious, that is, ascetic and monastic orders and communities which have existed, both within and without the Christian fold, exhibit some of the features of communism.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Communism

Jim
 
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SolomonVII

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com·mu·nism

   https://secure.reference.com/sso/register_pop.html?source=favorites/ˈkɒm
thinsp.png
yəˌnɪz
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əm
/ Show Spelled[kom-yuh-niz-uh
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–noun 1. a theory or system of social organization based on the holding of all property in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state.

2. ( often initial capital letter
thinsp.png
) a system of social organization in which all economic and social activity is controlled by a totalitarian state dominated by a single and self-perpetuating political party.


3. ( initial capital letter
thinsp.png
) the principles and practices of the Communist party.


4. communalism.


The reason why that the use of the word communism is being rejected here is very similar to the reason that a swatzika is no longer used as a good representation of a religious cross.
There is a history to these kind of things now that noone in their right minds really would want to be associated with in any way.
 
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fated

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com·mu·nism

   https://secure.reference.com/sso/register_pop.html?source=favorites/ˈkɒm
thinsp.png
yəˌnɪz
thinsp.png
əm
/ Show Spelled[kom-yuh-niz-uh
thinsp.png
m] Show IPA
–noun 1. a theory or system of social organization based on the holding of all property in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state.

2. ( often initial capital letter
thinsp.png
) a system of social organization in which all economic and social activity is controlled by a totalitarian state dominated by a single and self-perpetuating political party.


3. ( initial capital letter
thinsp.png
) the principles and practices of the Communist party.


4. communalism.


The reason why that the use of the word communism is being rejected here is very similar to the reason that a swatzika is no longer used as a good representation of a religious cross.
There is a history to these kind of things now that noone in their right minds really would want to be associated with in any way.
Communalism is clearly defined as different from communism, that is, a sub category, according to your post. Communalism is a popular form of communism, and is typically opt in.
 
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Simon_Templar

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When did communism become associated with Athiests and Evil? Was it when Stalin murdered more people than Hitler?

Or was it from all the heresies that come out of false religion?

Communism as it is known today was invented by Karl Marx. Prior to that time there were ideas present in some societies that leaned towards communism, or borrowed some elements of communism. However, for the most part, communism is a purely modern idea.

Given this, communism has been, from its inception atheistic and evil. Karl Marx, from the very beginning, built atheism into his social theory as a key component.

He recognized that organized religion, especially Christianity was completely antithetical to his ideas and would always be a natural enemy of the society that he envisioned.
In most societies it is always the lower classes and the common folk who are the most religious, the most conservative, and the most pius.
Marx's views required these people to rise up and over throw the 'higher' classes. Marx's view was inherently revolutionary, and required the common people, the working class to be revolutionary.

This creates a kind of irony since the common people are usually the most conservative. The real revolutionaries, and through history those who have actually lead communist movements have almost always been educated elites, not the common working man.

The common working man always becomes a mere tool for the social revolutionary theorist to play with in trying to gain power and test his theories on society.

Anyway, Marx recognized religion as his cheif enemy in turning the common workers into a revolutionary force. He expressed this in the now famous phrase that religion is 'the opiat of the masses'. IE religion is a drug that lulls them into inaction.

Thus Atheism is a foundational part of communism and has been since it was formulated as a social theory.


Now, addressing JimR and the quote from the Catholic encyclopedia

The quotes you posted really don't help your case, at least that I can see.
They confirm that communism is defined by lack of private property and that mere corporate ownership of capital assets (allowing other assets to be privately owned) DOES NOT qualify as communism.

Also, the statement that religious orders exhibit "some of the features of communism" doesn't equal "they are communist".

To say "it has some communist features" logically requires that the thing itself is not communist. Otherwise it would be a redundant statement. such as communism has some communist features". That kind of statement doesn't make sense.

The statement only makes sense if the thing in question (religious orders) are not communist but do have some features which are included in communism, or which resemble elements of communism.

In terms of social systems, there are three defining points of communist social theory.
#1 lack of private property
#2 the community is totalitarian
#3 membership in the community is not voluntary

Also, you differentiate between Marxism and communism. I agree that there certainly have been communal elements of many societies through out history. However communism as a social theory pretty much originates with Marx.

The ancient roots of communist theory are often held to be found in Plato's Republic. There is some basis for this, however, what Plato described is not a true communist society. In fact it consisted of three distinct classes and could be described as more of a caste society than a communist society.
It is sometimes held to be communist because the community described was what moderns would call totalitarian and essentially the individual people existed only for the good of the community.
(it should also be noted that in the context of the book it is not at all clear that Plato is actually endorsing this view.. it is in my opinion a satirical view).

Other than that, there is nothing more that even smacks of real communist theory until you run into the enlightenment with some of the French thinkers, and then of course Karl Marx shortly there after.
Marx himself saw early human society as a kind of communism, but his vision of pre-historic human society is basically the invention of the evolutionary community imagining what things must have been like.

For a good Catholic perspective on that, I recommend GK Chesterton's "Everlasting Man".

The point being, to speak of true communism apart from Karl Marx, is something like speaking of True Christianity apart from Paul.

Paul didn't make up Christianity, he didn't found it... but if you throw him out, you also throw out most of the New Testament, and what you have left isn't really Christianity anymore.
 
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Antisock

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Communism as it is known today was invented by Karl Marx. Prior to that time there were ideas present in some societies that leaned towards communism, or borrowed some elements of communism. However, for the most part, communism is a purely modern idea.

I intentionally avoid studying Marx. Probably not the greatest idea but I don't see anything good about it and even all the bad I do see in capitalism doesn't make me care about it when the Church teaches Subsidiarity as the answer.

Your explanation would explain why some people here have claimed the things they have though, even the misguided ones about the communal life of the early Church. Thanks. Any comparison is pure lunacy.

I think I'd rather go back to living in a cave than under the nonsensical socialists ideas. I think when it comes down to it the real socialist is the sloth who wants more personal gain and finds the easiest way to get that is scheming from their fat behinds how best to take the money of he who works for what he eats.

When Paul said if a man does not work he should not eat must really burn their britches. ;) Every bit as much as when God said men must toil and women bear children in pain. The common denominator is that socialists are also anti-life and population narcissists which really equates to the same error of Satan, being, they will not serve. They can pretend they care about social issues all the want. The fruit of their actions prove them hypocrits just as bad if not worse than the other contending parties.

What good is to feed the poor if you kill the most helpless humans in the world also? The Democrats have disguised themselves as caring and loving people, but socialism and abortion are anything but.
 
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Simon_Templar

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I think when it comes down to it the real socialist is the sloth who wants more personal gain and finds the easiest way to get that is scheming from their fat behinds how best to take the money of he who works for what he eats.

When Paul said if a man does not work he should not eat must really burn their britches.

When it comes down to it, what you have said here is one of the two key issues. The other is simply the fact that people have a right to their own property and no one has the right to take that away from them.

But looking at what you say here...

Lets begin by agreeing that we all, as Christians, have a duty to help the poor. We have a duty to compassion.

So how does that square with what you say above?

The first point is this.

If you examine what the early Church did, their 'charity' was given to those who could not help themselves. Widows and orphans.
If a person was capable of providing for themselves and their family, and didn't do so, it was viewed as a complete disgrace. Paul said that such a man was "worse than an infidel". A Christian who does not provide for their own family (when they have the ability to do so) is worse than an unbeliever.

Why is this? Why does Paul say that if a man will not work, let him also not eat? Is he just a hateful individual?

No. The real issue here is a deep truth about human nature, which modern society has covered over and which liberals have apparently totally forgotten.

When a person gets to the point at which they begin to live off of other people. When they get to the point where they stop taking responsability for themselves and the live at other people's expense, it is horribly destructive for that person. Such a person has essentially, willingly become a slave. Slaves are, by force, robbed of the basic human dignity of self-governance.
A person who does not work to support himself, but instead lives off the charity of others, has robbed himself of those things. He has given up willingly the dignity which is forcibly taken from slaves.

Allowing people, and enabling people to live this kind of life, to fall into this trap is horribly destructive of them. It is destructive of their very human dignity.

This truth was recognized by many in ages past where it was not uncommon to see men prefer to work and be poor, rather than to accept 'charity' that they did not earn.
Of course there is always excess in pride of refusing help. However, there is also a basic truth here that to take what you did not earn is simply an unworthy way to live. It makes you less.

Thus when Paul says, if a man will not work, let him also not eat... he is expressing the basic truth that to enable someone in such a lifestyle IS NOT CHARITABLE... it is rather, hateful. When you do this, you are literally destroying those people.
It would be better to let them starve until hunger forces them to work and to take responsability for themselves.


This is one of the big problems with the modern welfare state. It enables and encourages this lifestyle. In the end, welfare destroys most of the people who receive it.


In the modern state we have the problem (its probably always been around) that there are people who are willing to work, but they can't find gainful employment.

The Charity of Christians and the Church should be employed to help those who can not fend for themselves, and to help those who are willing to work, but can't find employment to support themselves.

If there is going to be something like unemployment, it should require that people do something to earn it. Obviously it should be tailored to allow them to look for work, etc. Or allow for retraining going to school etc.. However, simply giving people money for doing nothing, is almost always a bad idea.

Its bad for the people themselves!
 
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Antisock

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When it comes down to it, what you have said here is one of the two key issues. The other is simply the fact that people have a right to their own property and no one has the right to take that away from them.

But looking at what you say here...

Lets begin by agreeing that we all, as Christians, have a duty to help the poor. We have a duty to compassion.

So how does that square with what you say above?

The first point is this.

If you examine what the early Church did, their 'charity' was given to those who could not help themselves. Widows and orphans.
If a person was capable of providing for themselves and their family, and didn't do so, it was viewed as a complete disgrace. Paul said that such a man was "worse than an infidel". A Christian who does not provide for their own family (when they have the ability to do so) is worse than an unbeliever.

Why is this? Why does Paul say that if a man will not work, let him also not eat? Is he just a hateful individual?

No. The real issue here is a deep truth about human nature, which modern society has covered over and which liberals have apparently totally forgotten.

When a person gets to the point at which they begin to live off of other people. When they get to the point where they stop taking responsability for themselves and the live at other people's expense, it is horribly destructive for that person. Such a person has essentially, willingly become a slave. Slaves are, by force, robbed of the basic human dignity of self-governance.
A person who does not work to support himself, but instead lives off the charity of others, has robbed himself of those things. He has given up willingly the dignity which is forcibly taken from slaves.

Allowing people, and enabling people to live this kind of life, to fall into this trap is horribly destructive of them. It is destructive of their very human dignity.

This truth was recognized by many in ages past where it was not uncommon to see men prefer to work and be poor, rather than to accept 'charity' that they did not earn.
Of course there is always excess in pride of refusing help. However, there is also a basic truth here that to take what you did not earn is simply an unworthy way to live. It makes you less.

Thus when Paul says, if a man will not work, let him also not eat... he is expressing the basic truth that to enable someone in such a lifestyle IS NOT CHARITABLE... it is rather, hateful. When you do this, you are literally destroying those people.
It would be better to let them starve until hunger forces them to work and to take responsability for themselves.


This is one of the big problems with the modern welfare state. It enables and encourages this lifestyle. In the end, welfare destroys most of the people who receive it.


In the modern state we have the problem (its probably always been around) that there are people who are willing to work, but they can't find gainful employment.

The Charity of Christians and the Church should be employed to help those who can not fend for themselves, and to help those who are willing to work, but can't find employment to support themselves.

If there is going to be something like unemployment, it should require that people do something to earn it. Obviously it should be tailored to allow them to look for work, etc. Or allow for retraining going to school etc.. However, simply giving people money for doing nothing, is almost always a bad idea.

Its bad for the people themselves!

Sounds like common sense to me. The socialist saps personal responsibility from the able by disregarding the weakest and oppressing the strong. The capitalist is correct to point that out but in so far it uses its own altruistic will to make up for its own selfishness.

Thats why Subsidiarity should be the status quo. Everyone gets an honest and proportionate share of the responsiblity for themselves and those they can help. It requires the ideals of Christ to help who one can, not Marx or some diest.
 
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ScottBot

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When it comes down to it, what you have said here is one of the two key issues. The other is simply the fact that people have a right to their own property and no one has the right to take that away from them.

But looking at what you say here...

Lets begin by agreeing that we all, as Christians, have a duty to help the poor. We have a duty to compassion.

So how does that square with what you say above?

The first point is this.

If you examine what the early Church did, their 'charity' was given to those who could not help themselves. Widows and orphans.
If a person was capable of providing for themselves and their family, and didn't do so, it was viewed as a complete disgrace. Paul said that such a man was "worse than an infidel". A Christian who does not provide for their own family (when they have the ability to do so) is worse than an unbeliever.

Why is this? Why does Paul say that if a man will not work, let him also not eat? Is he just a hateful individual?

No. The real issue here is a deep truth about human nature, which modern society has covered over and which liberals have apparently totally forgotten.

When a person gets to the point at which they begin to live off of other people. When they get to the point where they stop taking responsability for themselves and the live at other people's expense, it is horribly destructive for that person. Such a person has essentially, willingly become a slave. Slaves are, by force, robbed of the basic human dignity of self-governance.
A person who does not work to support himself, but instead lives off the charity of others, has robbed himself of those things. He has given up willingly the dignity which is forcibly taken from slaves.

Allowing people, and enabling people to live this kind of life, to fall into this trap is horribly destructive of them. It is destructive of their very human dignity.

This truth was recognized by many in ages past where it was not uncommon to see men prefer to work and be poor, rather than to accept 'charity' that they did not earn.
Of course there is always excess in pride of refusing help. However, there is also a basic truth here that to take what you did not earn is simply an unworthy way to live. It makes you less.

Thus when Paul says, if a man will not work, let him also not eat... he is expressing the basic truth that to enable someone in such a lifestyle IS NOT CHARITABLE... it is rather, hateful. When you do this, you are literally destroying those people.
It would be better to let them starve until hunger forces them to work and to take responsability for themselves.


This is one of the big problems with the modern welfare state. It enables and encourages this lifestyle. In the end, welfare destroys most of the people who receive it.


In the modern state we have the problem (its probably always been around) that there are people who are willing to work, but they can't find gainful employment.

The Charity of Christians and the Church should be employed to help those who can not fend for themselves, and to help those who are willing to work, but can't find employment to support themselves.

If there is going to be something like unemployment, it should require that people do something to earn it. Obviously it should be tailored to allow them to look for work, etc. Or allow for retraining going to school etc.. However, simply giving people money for doing nothing, is almost always a bad idea.

Its bad for the people themselves!
Rabbi Daniel Lapin says this idea of charity, to give to someone in need with the intention that they will pay it back, or pay it forward, is charity in its truest sense. When you give to someone and take away their ability to pay it back, you destroy their soul.
 
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Virgil the Roman

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It is semantics and point of purposeful antagonism, to needlessly insist upon utilising the term, "communism" in a context that is most un-befitting, and frankly disingenuous. It would seem, you are using the term, to merely solicit frustration and to agitate. Perhaps, deriving some amusement, therefrom? I do not know. In any case, this is very much counterproductive.
 
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