Why aren't you a Calvinist?

[Bro. Gabriel]

Do any of you who are so quick to quote 2 Peter 3:9 know the meaning of this verse in context? Or, do you know the Greek words behind those English words such as "any" and "all"?

 

[FreeinChrist]

FIC, your not Calvinist at all. You are 4 point Arminiast. They beleive that we can resist grace and lose our salvation--you believe that we can resist in the beginning, but if we believe, we can't resist later. This is not logically consistant.

You also should not be so critical, because there are many Calvinist who have done great things for the kingdom of God, and continue to do so. Including baptist, like Charles Spurgeon or even Charles Stanley who you see on TV. The SBC is Calvinist, and yet they are #1 in missions among all Bapitst churches.

Hmmm...never said I was a 4 pt Calvinist. But I am not truly an Arminian either.


And yes, there have been many wonderful Calvinists who I have even known and respected, and who have been wonderful Christians.
But you might not be reading what I wrote. WHO in this thread referred to the other's belief as heretical and heredox? Was it a nonCalvinist? NO.

And I was SBC for, well, many years...and some folks are Calvinist and some aren't. I never read that the SBC required people to agree with the Baptist faith and message in it's entirity to be a member as implied by Bro. Gabriel!

I ask from all in this thread and forum that we restrain ourselves from referring to each other as heretics, heretical or heredox. It is a matter of mutual respect.

 

[FreeinChrist]

What? ? Who said anything about heresy?



According to that view, we are worthy of salvation based on our choice, iow, we earned it by a work, which is not biblical (Eph. 2:8-10)

Go back to post #10, and then to #11 - I quoted parts of them in my post about "It is comments like these..."

 

[FreeinChrist]

http://www.xenos.org/essays/calvpass.htm

V. Rom. 9:16,22,23

1. The Calvinist position is that Romans 9 teaches unconditional election and double predestination. This is because:

• vs. 16 "it [God's choice] does not depend on the man who wills"
• Vs. 18 refers to double predestination.
• vs. 22, 23 refer to "vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" and "vessels of mercy prepared beforehand for glory."
• The election involved is not a national election, because vs. 24 states that the vessels of mercy are "us, whom He called not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles,"" (i.e. believing Christians).

1. B. Arminians argue that the first part of Romans 9 deals with God's choice of nations and their roles in his plans.

• vs. 1-5 make clear that the context is that of national choice. This is confirmed in verses 6,7 because all Israelites were not saved and all Ishmaelites were not damned. Also, in vs. 13 Malachi 3:2 is cited to demonstrate that God had favored the nation of Israel over the nation of Edom.
• Vs. 16 refers to God's choice of how to lead the nation of Israel through the wilderness, which was independent of Moses's opinion. Personal salvation is not in view in the original passage (Ex. 33:19).
• Vs. 18 is in the context of vs. 16 see above, and vs. 17 which refers to God's temporal destruction of the Egyptians when they wanted to destroy Israel. The verse teaches therefore, that God caused his choice of Israel to stand regardless of Moses' attempts to help or Pharoah's attempts to hinder. Neither Moses' nor Pharoah's personal salvation was in view in these passages.
• Vs. 22,23 refers to nations which have either glorious or a judgmental role in history. God allows evil nations to exist, and often uses them to bless the chosen nation, Israel. Today, believers are able to participate in the covenant blessings of Israel, because they have been "grafted in to the rich root" of God's purpose in history.
  
  Another explanation is that the "lump" of clay in vs. 21 refers to national Israel. God has the right to divide Israel into two vessels: unbelieving Israel, which has now become a vessel of wrath (for "prepared", read fit or suited to destruction), and believing Israel, which, along with believing Gentiles has become a vessel of mercy.

1. Any interpretation of Rom. 9 must account for the transition that Paul makes from national choice in vss. 1-5ff. and individual salvation in vss. 24-33. Therefore, neither view can claim that the other is completely out of context. The question becomes one of which transition is more believable, and makes the most sense of the Old Testament quotations.

 

[FreeinChrist]

http://www.bible-truth.org/election.htm DOES CALVINISM GIVE A BIBLICAL EXPLANATION TO ELECTION?

The Bible states Christ died for all men. Note what the following verses clearly state:

• 
  "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world" (1 John 2:2).
  
  "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16).
  
  "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:4).
  
  "Who (speaking of Christ) gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time" (1 Timothy 2:6).
  
  "For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead" (2 Corinthians 5:14).
  
  "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to very creature" (Mark 16:15).
  
  "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9).
  
  "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent" (Acts 17:30).
  
  "Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life (Romans 5:18). "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man" (Hebrews 2:9).
  

Clearly each of the above Scriptures teach that Christ died for all men everywhere and desires all men to be saved. Any teaching of man that contradicts this truth is false. It is understood that those that hold to limited atonement (Calvinism) will counter by saying "the world" and "all men" does not really mean all the world and all men, but refer only to the "elect." Surely, such a line of thinking is based on man's faulty reasoning and not sound an hermeneutical principle. The clear meaning of the word "world" (cosmos) as used in the Bible means the whole earth and everyone on it or the lost world. It is never used in the Bible as referring to God's elect. The word "all" is all inclusive. "All men" encompasses every man. If God had wanted to limit the scope of salvation, He could have easily chosen a better word than "all", "world" and "every" man! He chose these words because they convey the meaning God intended. He paid the price for all men's sin everywhere in all the world! He brought with His own blood the right to offer all men salvation. Limited atonement would mean he only suffered for those that will be saved and is clearly an unbiblical teaching.

 

[FreeinChrist]

The Calvinist must deny many portions of God's Word to continue to teach that Christ's death was limited to only a few men who would be saved. Matthew 7:13-14 and Romans 3:10-26 explains why men are lost and are condemned to hell. Romans 1:18-22 says:

• "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened"

The verse says that God's wrath is revealed from heaven against men's sin and the fact that man holds the truth in unrighteousness. It states God has revealed Himself to all men and therefore all men are without excuse. This begs the question. . .why would God reveal Himself to all men and base His wrath on the fact that men know the truth but reject it, IF some men could not respond to God's revelation of Himself? Further, the Calvinist must concluded that when he preaches the Gospel and presents salvation to his listeners he is doing so "tongue in cheek." He must admit he is offering something that some hearing him cannot receive because God will not permit them to. The Gospel then becomes "Good News," only to the select few. The others, who the Calvinist says is born for hell, are wasting their time even hearing of Christ's death, burial and resurrection, because they cannot receive Christ.

 

[FreeinChrist]

http://www.hopefortoday.org/Calvinism_article.pdf

This is a good article.

 

[Crazy Liz]

It most certiantly does not, you say this out of your lack of knowledge. I, a calvinist, have written a devotion about evangelism. You assume that because we believe that God is soveriegn, we don't believe that he hold men responsible--this however contradicts the bible (Romans 9).

Read my devotion.

http://www.christianforums.com/t676708

So all that stuff you say hear is a straw man.

The Calvinist idea of evangelism has always baffled me. It feels like evangelism as a tool of hate, since its purpose is to make the state of the non-elect worse than it was before.

 

[Bulldog]

The Calvinist idea of evangelism has always baffled me. It feels like evangelism as a tool of hate, since its purpose is to make the state of the non-elect worse than it was before.

What do you mean? That is not the purpose of Calvinistsc evangelsim. The purpose is to gather God's sheep.

It's too bad I can debate here...

 

[BBAS 64]

Good Day, all

I am sorry I am tardy in getting back to this thred, as things have gone crazy at work over the last few days. In reading though this thread from those whom do not up hold the doctrines of Grace. I can say that I have been there and understand the issues you have raised. It wouls appear though that not may Baptist have read Spurgeon with reguards to this issue and the historical view of Baptists and the doctrines of Grace.

One kind member of this board did send me a link from an other Baptist who had written on the woule issuse of Spurgeon I have yet to read it all so I will with hold comment on his understanding of the issue. One thing he did say is that Spurgeon might of been mistaken, but failed in all that I have read to see the real possiblity that he may be mistaken as well. In that article he also says so Spurgeon was a Calvinist "big deal", well it may be a big deal if he does interact with what Spurgeon had written and put his emontions in check.

There was one who posted "I will never be a Calvinist", be careful will never is a long time. Seems I have heard this come from my thoughts in the past.

There has been much Scripture verses posted here and that is good IMO. I will be posting some thoughts on those as time allows, once the server is stable and the network is avaible at work.

I thank you for your comments on this thread, I find it very sombering to look back on myself and see many of you in the boat I was once in.

For His Glory Alone!

Bill

 

[BBAS 64]

Good Day,

Seems that one of the major verses here comes from 2 Peter verse 9, But the context of this verse comes much from the verses that proceed 9.

The First chapter:

2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

2Pe 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.




3rd Chapter------------------------------


2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

**Remember this is written to Belivers

2Pe 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

* believers- beloved,YE

2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

*Un regenerate man

2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

*Unregenerate Man's Charge
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

* Unbelivers rewards for thier ungodly- ness
2Pe 3:8 But,
beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

*Believers
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

* Believers - Chargeof the ungodly in verse #4 rebuffed


2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


*Reward for Believers


The intresting part of the verse 9 is IMO "all should" vs "all could". The Greek constuction of "all should" is some thing I have not looked at, but the Greek used in the bible for "could" is not the same word for 'should '. Could denotes an integral ablity from the root of the word, "should" does not reflect or denote the same integral abilty in the verb form reguardless of tense.

It is quite different if I said.

You should do thus and so. as compared too, You could do thus and so.

In "shoulding" you to do thus and so, I am now ineffect putting my understanding above yours, and telling you I know better than you. I have not shown any reguard to your ablity or lack there of. It is of my will you "should" do it.

In "coulding" you to do thus and so, I am now allowing you some leway as it were based on your willing ness to do it and I assume you have the ability.

The necissity of "should" here meaning that abilty is forgone and assumed with in the meaning of the word, lacks any useage or grammical constuct by it's very definition to see that as a true conclusion. Thus reading in to the text "ideas" that are not there and unsupported with in it's frame work.

For His Glory Alone!

Bill

 

[Bro. Gabriel]

I find it very sombering to look back on myself and see many of you in the boat I was once in.

Agreed..

 

[Lynn73]

I am not trying to either, I am just refuting the empty and hollow anti-calvinist rederick that you and others pose--out of misinformation.

Whatever you say. I know better than to continue debating as it's not going to change any Calvinist's mind nor is anything they say going to change mine for I read the Bible and have the witness in my soul from the Holy Spirit that Calvinism isn't right. It is nonsensical for God to plainly state that He desires none to perish and wants all to come to repentence and then turn around and make a decree that Christ only die for certain people that He picks and the rest can go straight to hell because they have no chance just because God decides they can't be saved. If this is the case God is contradicting Himself and the God I know doesn't contradict Himself. End of story.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Good Day, all

I am sorry I am tardy in getting back to this thred, as things have gone crazy at work over the last few days. In reading though this thread from those whom do not up hold the doctrines of Grace.

Right here you lost me - with this - those whom do not up hold the doctrines of Grace.
Sorry, but no one here posted who does not hold up the doctrine of grace!
So why is it that folks have to use the tactic of 'accusation' -(for lack of a better word) - i.e. "not holding the doctrine of grace", of heresy, and having empty theology...
yet I have never seen scripture that removes the requirements of belief, faith, repent and obey?

The nonCalvinists here beleive we are saved by GRACE through faith. Don't hyper-Calvinists believe that some folks are preselected to salvation and others are preselected to dam*nati*on? That God regenerates them so they can believe and be saved, but doesn't regenerate others so they can be saved?

Didn't Calvin write - "Predestination we call the eternal decree of God, by which He has determined in Himself what He would have to become of every individual of mankind. For they are not all created with a similar destiny; but eternal life is ordained for some, and eternal damnation for others. Every man, therefore, being created for one or the other of these ends, we say is predestined either to life of death....."In conformity, therefore, to the clear doctrine of Scripture (?), we assert that, by an eternal and immutable counsel, God has once for all determined both whom He would admit to salvation and whom He would condemn to destruction" (Institutes, Book 3, chapter 21).

I beleive that flies in the face of this scripture:
Rom 5:17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.Rom 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.Rom 5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

Jhn 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.Jhn 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.



Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus {as} Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;Rom 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."Rom 10:14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?Rom 10:15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!"


And the other scripture already posted in a post above.

I can say that I have been there and understand the issues you have raised. It wouls appear though that not may Baptist have read Spurgeon with reguards to this issue and the historical view of Baptists and the doctrines of Grace.

Spurgeon also preached alot about man's responsibility to obey, believe, and have faith.

I thank you for your comments on this thread, I find it very sombering to look back on myself and see many of you in the boat I was once in.

Having been a Calvinist in the past and now not.....I can say the same.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Whatever you say. I know better than to continue debating as it's not going to change any Calvinist's mind nor is anything they say going to change mine for I read the Bible and have the witness in my soul from the Holy Spirit that Calvinism isn't right. It is nonsensical for God to plainly state that He desires none to perish and wants all to come to repentence and then turn around and make a decree that Christ only die for certain people that He picks and the rest can go straight to hell because they have no chance just because God decides they can't be saved. If this is the case God is contradicting Himself and the God I know doesn't contradict Himself. End of story.

Amen!

 

[BBAS 64]

I agree totally that the truth can't be avoided just because we don't like it. Some of us just don't happen to believe that Calvinism is the truth and don't believe the Bible supports it. We're not trying to avoid the truth or look for something that tickles our ears.



John 3:16 doesn't say that Christ died for whosoever believes in Him. It says that God so loved the world (everyone) that He gave His only begotton Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. You're turning words around and making it say somethig that it doesn't.

2Pe 3:9 -The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


Which is it? God is either not willing for anyone to perish and sent Jesus to die for EVERYONE so that salvation is open to all who will receive it OR He doesn't care about people perishing and deliberately predestines certain people to hell. If He's not willing that any perish and wants all to come to repentence, that certainly seems to put the Scriptures at odds with doctrine that says Jesus only died for a certain select group of people and the others are destined for hell and that's it.

Good Day, Lynn

You bring up some good questions here, that should be addressed. It has been shown that the word here "world" is used by scripture many times, and can be used in 20 differnet ways depending on a multiple of differant things. It is believed that John in his gospel used 14 differnet usages. World and Everyone are not allways the same, there are very very few usages in Scripture where world means everyone and off the top of my head I can not think of one.

So why are you using that usage here in 3:16. Would you aplly the same ideas in:

Joh 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

Joh 17:7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

Joh 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.


Why did Jesus not pray for everyone " world"?

Which way is it?

Lynn,

You have set before you a contradiction that exists with in your understanding of the logic you bring to the text with out the text supporting such understanding. I have addresssed Peter in a past post, you see a contridiction that does not exist. So which way is it I say neither, premise may be in error causing both to be invaild choices.


Peace to u,

Bill

 

[Mary_Magdalene]

Having been a Calvinist in the past and now not.....I can say the same.[/size]

Amen!!!

why do most calvinists act like if you dont believe in what they do, they are more mature than you? They act like they are further in their walk with Christ? You know Mr. and Mrs. Calvinists, maybe people would be more willing to listen to your arguements if you would start dropping the "im more mature than you are" attitude. it really turns people off to listening to you.

 

[Lynn73]

I don't know, perhaps at this particular time He was just praying for certain people such as His disciples. Do you pray for the whole world every time you pray? "God so loved the world" should speak volumes. He loves everybody. Why did Jesus command His followers to go to all the world to preach the gospel to EVERY creature? What's the point in preaching to those who are already destined for hell? As I said before, if things are as Calvinists say they are, then God is contradicting Himself imho.

you see a contridiction that does not exist.

You're entitled to your opinion. I don't share it. Peace.

 

[BBAS 64]

Right here you lost me - with this - those whom do not up hold the doctrines of Grace.
Sorry, but no one here posted who does not hold up the doctrine of grace!
So why is it that folks have to use the tactic of 'accusation' -(for lack of a better word) - i.e. "not holding the doctrine of grace", of heresy, and having empty theology...
yet I have never seen scripture that removes the requirements of belief, faith, repent and obey?

Good Day, FIC

I never ever suggested that peopleho hold a view outside of Reformed theology as being heresy exept may be all out Pelagians. I do not see how reformed baptists remove any scriptural requirements. The term Doctrines of Grace has been used over and over by Augustine to current day people such as James White to describe the whole of refemormed theology.

The nonCalvinists here beleive we are saved by

GRACE through faith. Don't hyper-Calvinists believe that some folks are preselected to salvation and others are preselected to dam*nati*on? That God regenerates them so they can believe and be saved, but doesn't regenerate others so they can be saved?

You are talking to Hyper Calvinist of which I am not one. I will say that reformed people hold to that view yes, with out being hyper Calvinist

All things whatever arise from, and depend on, the divine appointment; whereby it was foreordained who should receive the word of life, and who should disbelieve it; who should be delivered from their sins, and who should be hardened in them; and who should be justified and who should be condemned.
- Martin Luther

Therefore the mercy is past finding out by which He has mercy on whom He will, no merits of his own preceding; and the truth is unsearchable by which He hardeneth whom He will, even although his merits may have preceded, but merits for the most part common to him with the man on whom He has mercy. As of two twins, of which one is taken and the other left, the end is unequal, while the deserts are common, yet in these the one is in such wise delivered by God's great goodness, that the other is condemned by no injustice of God's. For is there unrighteousness with God? Away with the thought- Augustine

Didn't Calvin write - "Predestination we call the eternal decree of God, by which He has determined in Himself what He would have to become of every individual of mankind. For they are not all created with a similar destiny; but eternal life is ordained for some, and eternal damnation for others. Every man, therefore, being created for one or the other of these ends, we say is predestined either to life of death....."In conformity, therefore, to the clear doctrine of Scripture (?), we assert that, by an eternal and immutable counsel, God has once for all determined both whom He would admit to salvation and whom He would condemn to destruction" (Institutes, Book 3, chapter 21).

I beleive that flies in the face of this scripture:
Rom 5:17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.Rom 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.Rom 5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

Jhn 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.Jhn 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.



Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus {as} Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;Rom 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."Rom 10:14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?Rom 10:15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!"


And the other scripture already posted in a post above.




Spurgeon also preached alot about man's responsibility to obey, believe, and have faith.


Having been a Calvinist in the past and now not.....I can say the same.

FIC, You raise some good verses here that need to be addresses, though IMO do not refute the biblical Calvinism one bit, but adress the mis understanding of it. I hope to be able to talk about these in a adult manner. I am sorry if I have offened you in any way from what I have written on the subject.

For His Glory Alone!

Billo

 

[FreeinChrist]

[/color][/size][/color][/size]

Good Day, FIC

I never ever suggested that peopleho hold a view outside of Reformed theology as being heresy exept may be all out Pelagians.

Please see some earlier posts. I won't bring it up anymore though.

I do not see how reformed baptists remove any scriptural requirements. The term Doctrines of Grace has been used over and over by Augustine to current day people such as James White to describe the whole of refemormed theology.

The Doctrine of grace is also referred to by others in that we are saved by grace. Perhaps if you clarify the term when you use it and say Reformed Doctrine of grace?

You are talking to Hyper Calvinist of which I am not one. I will say that reformed people hold to that view yes, with out being hyper Calvinist

My understanding is that most 5 point Calvinists are hyper-calvinists, and that there are 4 pt. Calvinists, 3 pt. Calvinists, etc.





My main problems with Calvinism are these:
1. It teaches that man is regenerated by the Holy Spirit before they believe, that they cannot even begin to beleive without this.

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,Eph 1:14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of {God's own} possession, to the praise of His glory.

The Holy Spirit is given to beleivers as a pledge by God of our eternal inheritance. I can't find any scripture that says the Holy Spirit indwells before there is belief, or regenerates before man responds.

Jhn 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
draw - helkuo - to draw without necessarily the notion of force.
If force is used, then suro would be the appropriate word.

I beleive the Father draws men to Christ, and when we claim to beleive, it is God who looks into our hearts and minds ( in isaiah I believe), knows our true intention and then grants it to us to come to Christ, giving us to Christ (also in John 6).

But we have to believe.

2. Irresistible grace - grace was shown repeatedly to the Israelites... look at the miracles they saw. They resisted.

3. "The word 'world' is not 'world' - it means only the elect."
Jhn 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.Jhn 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
The Word 'world' in this verse is Kosmos - to set in order, space (as opposed to time), the sum totalof the material universe and the persons living.

I have to get back to this later....have some work to do...