Why are you so?

[oi_antz]

For me it is very simple now that I understand the story of history in context of Jesus being Christ, any attempt to dismiss God falls flat because it simply isn't true.

If you have truly comprehended God's point of view to the most of your potential (which is beyond the mind's capacity, it is directly spiritual) then you'll just support God on every attack. There are many who choose not to comprehend God fully because they would rather be happy with their own God, thus they don't accept something that God says in the Bible.

Let me put it like this: the Bible is God's very seed for the spiritual life we live, Jesus has come to give us the right to eat of the tree of life which is in God's paradise (Revelation 2:7), this tree gives us food for the spirit, and we may find this fruit when we worship God and seek to learn His truth (which comes by reading the Bible). The Bible appears meaningless to those who don't worship God, evidence that not everyone is ready to accept God for who He says He is.

 

[razeontherock]

I was raised in a Hardcore Baptist home. Super fundi type stuff. I understand the bible extensively, much more then most people who are religious. I have read it front to back a few times. Well like twice then random sections. I for one find the "You have to let the holy ghost guide you to read it" idea to be crazy. All that means is your god failed in his main mission, to impart the words he wanted upon his people. I read the book for what it is, what the words mean as there is no other logical way.

Your logic has COMPLETELY DECEIVED YOU as to what it means, and even what it says. (Reference your previous posts)

 

[oi_antz]

Care to debate on it then? Faceless assertions mean nothing.


I would argue your logic has completely deceived you and you build the bible around what you want it to mean.

Got skype? Add me as Game_Guru (reverendlivefree) I would love to debate you.

Actually the Bible just exists for all of us born into the world, all that is in the Bible is collected and blessed by the spirit of God, so we either accept it or reject it, there is no way we can just "build the Bible" around what we think it should mean! You either agree with the words or you dispute them, we need to get to the bottom of your problem, what is the verse you struggle to accept? Surely you agree with Jesus' teachings?

 

[oi_antz]

The bible has a verse for and against every choice you could ever make. I don't find one redeeming idea in the entire religion.

Also yes you do build it around what you think. The westboro bapist church listen to every verse in your bible. You pick and choose, which is great in two ways. You aren't absolutely crazy, and you don't think rape, murder, etc is morally correct. One cannot cherry pick what they want and leave what they don't like, and if they do that proves they have their own sense of morality anyway showing not only can god not show his ways to his people but that he isn't needed for morality.

I have some simple advice for you: trust the angel and not the devil when you read the Bible, the Bible is really a great tool to help us tune our conscience, but if you're intent on reading the book upside down then you'll never get where you should be heading.

 

[oi_antz]

The bible has a verse for and against every choice you could ever make. I don't find one redeeming idea in the entire religion.

2 Timothy 3:16 (New International Version)
16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

I think if a scripture is being misused, that is misrepresentation of God, so it is a lie and the truth will become apparent with time. The spirit in which we present an argument (whether or not a quote from the Bible or wherever) is quite reflective of our honest intentions, and I trust that we're all here with honest intentions

 

[solarwave]

Well first you must prove a god, devil, and angels exist in order to make that blatant assumption.

Anywho, I was a HARDCORE christian for a long time, I tried to read the bible I always was thinking of logical reasons to support it. I always tried to rationalize it's evils, like many do today. Basically what you are saying is god failed in his mission to impart the words he wanted upon man. Either that or he failed in getting people that are literate to write the thing, because to a simple outside observer it makes no sense. Bassicaly what you are saying in scientific terms is "Let your imprinted predisposition guide you to fill in or erase whatever gaps you see fit in order to make your god not a ruthless killer"

Not only that but you are saying there is a context in which, rape, killing, murder are all morally correct. I'm sorry but no such exemption exists, even for a creator.

God allows rape even in the OT??

Anyway you seem to be trying to read the Bible as if it is literally out of God's mouth what He wanted to say. Can't you read it as if God inspired people to write down how they understood God and then look for the underlying principles. For example that the whole of the law can be summed up in love God and love others as yourself. Nothing evil about that.

 

[Key]

I was raised in a Hardcore Baptist home. Super fundi type stuff. I understand the bible extensively, much more then most people who are religious.

Anyone but me love it when people say "I was raised in a religious household this I know religion better then other religious people"



God Bless

 

[Key]

God allows rape even in the OT??

I think he is talking about the part in the bible where if a man rapes a woman he then has to support her for the rest of her days, and might be taking that to mean that God supports rape.

God Bless

 

[solarwave]

Your right, there is nothing evil about cherry picking your ideas. But the simple fact, as you said, that it was not what god wanted or would have said etc. Shows that he is not all powerful as he would have made it perfect and kept it perfectly to his liking. Now from this we can either say your god is not there, or he is a ruthless killer etc etc.

Why does it show He is not all powerful because the Bible may have errors? Most Christians would accept that God works through fallible people (including the writters of the Bible) yet God doesn't have to be a puppet master and make sure all those God works through are totally perfect. God can be expressed well for a certain culture through fallible means.

There is nothing evil about the simple "love god..." idea. If it was right. But it isn't and you first must prove a gods existence in order to make that assumption.

You have infallible knowledge that it isn't right?

True, God should be proven to you in the right way for you, which also requires for you to be open and willing for it.

You said there was inconsistancy in the Bible, I said it can be read another way which isn't inconsistant, thats all.

Also what you just did shows how the moral argument is bs. You pick out of the bible what you want, and therefor make your own morality.

But yet you and I do believe in morals, but on what basis?

Currently I learn from the Bible and the Holy Spirit what the principles of goodness are and then use that to know wrong and right. I may not believe in a Bible of infallible laws of right and wrong, but I don't believe in absolute morality.

 

[oi_antz]

Basically what you are saying is god failed in his mission to impart the words he wanted upon man. Either that or he failed in getting people that are literate to write the thing, because to a simple outside observer it makes no sense. Bassicaly what you are saying in scientific terms is "Let your imprinted predisposition guide you to fill in or erase whatever gaps you see fit in order to make your god not a ruthless killer"

Not only that but you are saying there is a context in which, rape, killing, murder are all morally correct. I'm sorry but no such exemption exists, even for a creator.

Well you are making a lot assumptions over what is an instruction from God, in fact if you accept what Jesus gives you'll find this God is much the one to show mercy rather than being a "ruthless killer". I think if you haven't been in the spot God was standing when He made His decision for Gomorrah then you'll never understand how it felt for Him. How might we achieve this? By getting to know God. I must say your refute of God is based on lack of experience, in other words you are arguing "God doesn't exist" from the point of view that you have never known God. How about coming to know God and then trying the same argument? Are you willing to do this or are you just pulling my strings?

 

[Key]

It is true, I know more about the bible and can quote more verses then most religious people.

Your modesty is so refreshing, I love people who think they know everything, lets see how you hold up.

The simple fact is most atheists are atheists due to studying the bible completely and noticing how completely horrid it is and that god obviously doesn't exist.

I see you have been reading Minister to Moron, or other sucks works. Sorry if I am harsh, you don't seem the least bit polite, so I shall try to speak to you in a matter you seem to understand.

Also in reply to your other posts. You may want to read these out of your great book.

Lets look shall we?

(Judges 21:10-24 NLT)

Oh right, the plight of the Benjamites. The binding rules of the other tribes Who were not allowed to give their daughters directly to them, so they opted to give their blessing to them in other ways and allowed this to happen.

I suppose only an atheist would view this as God ordained rape, it is no wonder why I scoff at the notion when Atheist tell me they know this book better then other religious people.

Lets see what other Gems you have for me:

(Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT): Ah this one, this is the one most Atheist go after, the Law that binds the man to support any woman he rapes for the remainder of his days. If we still had that in effect, I doubt that many men would want to rape a woman, and thus need to pay Alimony for the rest of their life for a one time fling. Ouch. Given a fine is added on top of that, this does not look like a permission slip to go out and rape.

(Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB) Right, I LOVE this one. The punishment for Rape is they BOTH get killed. Yah, that sounds like God supports rape right there.

They just keep getting better and better. Did you actually read any of these in context or did you just pull this list from some Atheist site thinking you had some worthwhile rebuttal to something?

Let me clue you in, this is age old stuff that has been addressed already, countless times. In the future, when you look up these passages, type Apologetic before each one of them, and they will be explained in full, and this spare us the indignity of dealing with this trite drudgery.

And those are just a few.

Dude, after looking though that list, I can say this with complete confidence: you don't know the bible, at all, in any means or method

My Great Book seems simply beyond you.

God Bless/Go in Peace

 

[oi_antz]

But couldn't an all powerful god circumvent our logic? Meaning he wouldn't need to kill or etc to change people. He could just use some of his magical powers. You equate god to human principles and ideas on what is possible. Yet you claim your god is omnimax. I'm sorry but that makes no sense what so ever.

As I have said and I think you have read. I did try for the longest time, it never worked out. I did everything my preacher and the bible told me. etc etc etc. Also now I would say you can't claim to know what doesn't exist and one must first prove god in order to assert such a asinine idea. I was willing to do this, but now that I know so much on this topic I could not. It is in your gods all powerful hands (lulz) if I he appears to me. But I could replace "gods" with unicorns in that sentence and it would make just as much sense, in terms of validity.

Your pitfall is that you think you know better than God, thus you question His judgment. I tell you that no person but God is fit for making perfect judgment. So your vision of who God is appears to be completely fictional, as you obviously don't know God's personality at all.

 

[oi_antz]

I am assuming he is perfect. And do not normalize his evils.

Are you suggesting God is capable of evil, let alone that evil might be the perfect answer to a problem? If not then please rephrase your comment I don't think I understand what you mean, thanks

 

[solarwave]

1) For an all perfect god's book, which is the way people know of him, to have thousands of errors and condones many actions that are morally absurd. These are not traits of an all perfect god. You should really learn about psychology and sociology. We have morals because we evolved into a social animal. It benefits us and our race to get along and not kill etc. These are subjective. There are no objective morals and anyone who tells you that is either stupid or lying.

You are arguing against me as if I think the Bible is infallible and the direct words of God like Islams book. I don't think that. It involves looking beyond what is right in front of you. Humans wrote the Bible, humans make errors, but still there are spiritual truths to be learnt in it.

O course it benefits us not to kill, and maybe even all our morality comes from evolution, but that doesn't mean there are no moral absolutes. All humans with a good brain in their heads believe certain things are very evil. Examples could be given and I think both you and I would both say that they are evil and should not be done. If we accept evolution and reason we would both say rape, murder and child abuse is wrong. It is no opinion and some who says it is right is not equally correct. You express this below with dislike of the evil in the Bible.

You argument on consistency is bogus. There is only one way to read something, and that is the examination of the content within. The bible is crazy. Rape, murder, ruthless pillaging and sexual abuses of young virgins.

I'm not really sure what you mean. Are you saying that books can't have deeper meanings?

So you are saying there is a context in which all of those acts you say aren't inconsistent with a perfect god are ok? Then please explain as out government and no government or intellectual of the world seems to think so. There is NO context in which those actions are ok. Even with out subjective morals they go against the grain of our evolution.

No I am not saying that those evil things in the Bible are ok sometimes. They are the faults of human writters. Goodness is always agreeing with love.

 

[Key]

(Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)

If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.

Right, and you posted this because? You gave up or something?

God Bless/Go in Peace

 

[salida]

It is true, I know more about the bible and can quote more verses then most religious people. The simple fact is most atheists are atheists due to studying the bible completely and noticing how completely horrid it is and that god obviously doesn't exist.

Also in reply to your other posts. You may want to read these out of your great book.

(Judges 21:10-24 NLT)
(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
(Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)
(Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)
(2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)
(Judges 5:30 NAB)
(Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)
(Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
(Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

And those are just a few.

Its obvious you don't understand scripture and may not even try to. In the OT God judged pagans and when Israel did wrong. He used Israel as a nation for his glory in the OT. If you do your research and homework you would have understood this. Quoting scriptures and not understanding its intent is pointless.

 

[visionary]

So gods will is changing and he is judgmental?

Still wrestling with the whys and how comes.. You really need to meet with Him, and let Him explain Himself... there are a lot of factors that were in the mix as to the wherefores and whys things happen the way that they do.. but end result will be He is just and justified in the way He handled it... He knows the big and inner picture.. and ultimate outcome of it all.. His checks and balances in this equation will come clearly on the side of righteousness. I have faith in Him and His Ways.. knowing they are not mine.

 

[razeontherock]

Live free, you have made many absurd statements. Implying G-d is not a G-d of Judgment is the very pinnacle of it. Whatever else these harsh stories of the OT imply that you derail the thread by bringing up, they clearly tell us G-d WILL Judge, whether we like it or not. And therefore we are to conclude it is necessary to come to grips with what standards He will use.

 

[razeontherock]

The simple fact is most atheists are atheists due to studying the bible completely

Experience in this forum shows that EVERY atheist making this claim - every. single. one that makes this claim, does NOT understand the Bible, nor the G-d of the Bible. If you need the perfect example of that, look in the mirror.

 

[solarwave]

So you are saying god failed to impart his words, that he wanted, to his people? Even if it was made by humans. Your god is perfect and should be able to will a perfect bible into existence, or will it so everyone that wrote the bible changed their mind and wrote it how he wanted. Etc Etc.

You obviously don't understand what it would mean to be omnimax.

God is not a divine puppeteer. If God wanted to impart divine words onto paper then God did fail and so God is not ommipotent . But this is not what I believe.

God is able to make a perfect book and influence people, but this is not what God wanted to do. In my opinion God works with people. Parents can work with children to make a cake. Working with children means it takes longer and probably makes more of a mess of the cake but it is still a good thing to work with children than ignore them or overwhelm them.

So God could have made the Bible word for word what He wanted, but then again Jesus could have made His parables easier to understand. But is knowledge what is ment to be imparted here or is it something deeper?