Why are we so hard on YECs?

Jase · May 2, 2007

laptoppop said:
If you looked at past threads, you'd know my answer. Dino footprints are no problem -- the flood provides the perfect conditions (wet mud which is then covered with more sediment) to capture them. In fact, many dino footprint patterns *worldwide* show a pattern of *running* dinosaurs -- as if they were trying to escape. Burrows are also not a problem -- the current best explanation I have heard is that they were formed on floating mats of vegetation and soil which then get included in the fossil strata.

Once again - the flood did not instantaneously cover the earth like Scotty's transporter beam -- it took time to cover and time to recede. The strata we have is consistent with the entire complex event.

It only took 40 days to cover the Earth, for a global flood that's a pretty short amount of time.

But you still haven't solved the dino problem. You start with a base layer before the rain started. Then the waters build up, depositing more layers of sediment, then you have layers with dino footprints on top of the layers just deposited by the flood waters, and then more sediment on top of the dino footprints. In other words, Dino's made footprints in the middle of the flood waters. How does a dinosaur survive under a few thousand feet of water in order to make footprints in the sediment?

laptoppop · May 2, 2007

You are still postulating a relatively calm event with waters rising gradually. The waters would rise and fall at various times as new basins opened up, etc. At different times, depending on conditions, floods can erode sediments or deposit them. I have never said the dinos were underwater. Its possible that in some cases they were splashing through low levels of water, but most of the prints I'd expect were just made in mud.

pastorkevin73 · May 2, 2007

Jase said:
Has it? There is no evidence that millions of Jews ever wandered in the desert. Some of the prophecies aren't entirely accurate, like the destruction of Tyre.

What kind of evidence are you looking for?

I'd have to say that the Bible is accurate. I recommend reading Josh McDowell's "The New Evidence That Demands A Verdict." McDowell deals with this issue far better than I can.

pastorkevin73 · May 2, 2007

Jase said:
It only took 40 days to cover the Earth, for a global flood that's a pretty short amount of time.

But you still haven't solved the dino problem. You start with a base layer before the rain started. Then the waters build up, depositing more layers of sediment, then you have layers with dino footprints on top of the layers just deposited by the flood waters, and then more sediment on top of the dino footprints. In other words, Dino's made footprints in the middle of the flood waters. How does a dinosaur survive under a few thousand feet of water in order to make footprints in the sediment?

It is possible for a substancial amount of rain to fall flooding a local region. Look at the floods that have happened over that last ten years that occur in North Dakota and Manitoba. These floods have happened over two weeks, with rain not being the main factor.

Jase · May 2, 2007

pastorkevin73 said:
What kind of evidence are you looking for?

Anything reputable would be a good start.

I'd have to say that the Bible is accurate. I recommend reading Josh McDowell's "The New Evidence That Demands A Verdict." McDowell deals with this issue far better than I can.

McDowell is pretty unconvincing to most skeptics, so I doubt he will be of much benefit.

Jase · May 2, 2007

pastorkevin73 said:
It is possible for a substancial amount of rain to fall flooding a local region. Look at the floods that have happened over that last ten years that occur in North Dakota and Manitoba. These floods have happened over two weeks, with rain not being the main factor.

Yes, rain can fall very hard in a small area. The amount of water required for a global flood,however, defies physics. And please don't give me the God has no problem defying physics line. The atmosphere can't hold enough water to rain that hard.

Assyrian · May 3, 2007

laptoppop said:
You are still postulating a relatively calm event with waters rising gradually. The waters would rise and fall at various times as new basins opened up, etc. At different times, depending on conditions, floods can erode sediments or deposit them. I have never said the dinos were underwater. Its possible that in some cases they were splashing through low levels of water, but most of the prints I'd expect were just made in mud.

No you don't think the dinosaurs were under water. You do think they were walking on top of hundreds, even thousand of meters of sediment laid down by a flood. How much water is needed to carry that amount of sediment? How deep would all that water be? And how does it then receed for dinosaurs to come out (where were they hiding during this time) and start running around?

Gen 7:17 The flood continued forty days on the earth. The waters increased and bore up the ark, and it rose high above the earth. Reference to water increasing and rising during this period, no mention of rising and falling though.

laptoppop · May 3, 2007

Jase said:
Yes, rain can fall very hard in a small area. The amount of water required for a global flood,however, defies physics. And please don't give me the God has no problem defying physics line. The atmosphere can't hold enough water to rain that hard.

The scriptures plainly say the water came from below as well as above. Especially considering that we do not know that the mountains were as tall as they are now during the times before the flood - there would be plenty of water.

Jase · May 3, 2007

laptoppop said:
The scriptures plainly say the water came from below as well as above. Especially considering that we do not know that the mountains were as tall as they are now during the times before the flood - there would be plenty of water.

Purely speculation. What does fountains of the great deep even mean? How deep were they? Considering below the Earth's crust is molten plastic, there wasn't much water down there. And if the mountains weren't that tall, how did they get that tall? Do you realize the amount of time and energy it takes to smash 2 continents into one another to build mountains?

pastorkevin73 · May 3, 2007

Jase said:
Anything reputable would be a good start.

McDowell is pretty unconvincing to most skeptics, so I doubt he will be of much benefit.

Are you saying that you are a skeptic?

pastorkevin73 · May 3, 2007

Jase said:
Yes, rain can fall very hard in a small area. The amount of water required for a global flood,however, defies physics. And please don't give me the God has no problem defying physics line. The atmosphere can't hold enough water to rain that hard.

Well I'm going to feed you that "God has no problem defying physics" line anyway. God has on several times, and continues to, defied science. Miracles is but one way that He has used to defy science. Since God created the universe He can break any scientific law He want to, because He made those laws. So yes, God could have (and did) flood the entire world. God is a great God and His power knows no bounds.

KTatis · May 3, 2007

If all the water in the atmosphere were to fall on the ground it would only be about one inch tall. I want to hear another argument besides the fact that God can do all things. And yes he can... but dose that mean he will?

Jase · May 3, 2007

pastorkevin73 said:
Are you saying that you are a skeptic?

I wouldn't classify myself as a skeptic, but I am going through a crisis of faith. My point merely being that McDowell isn't very convincing to those who aren't already convinced.

Jase · May 3, 2007

pastorkevin73 said:
Well I'm going to feed you that "God has no problem defying physics" line anyway. God has on several times, and continues to, defied science. Miracles is but one way that He has used to defy science. Since God created the universe He can break any scientific law He want to, because He made those laws. So yes, God could have (and did) flood the entire world. God is a great God and His power knows no bounds.

His power has bounds. He can't do that which defies logic. What logical reason would God have for going through the trouble to make the global flood story work, when he could have just vaporized all life on Earth? Yes God could have flooded the Earth, but no he did not, as his creation testifies, unless you are claiming one of God's boundless powers is to completely deceive his creation?

pastorkevin73 · May 5, 2007

Jase said:
His power has bounds. He can't do that which defies logic. What logical reason would God have for going through the trouble to make the global flood story work, when he could have just vaporized all life on Earth? Yes God could have flooded the Earth, but no he did not, as his creation testifies, unless you are claiming one of God's boundless powers is to completely deceive his creation?

You are mistaken, my brother.

Jer 32:17 'Ah, Lord GOD! It is you who have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and by your outstretched arm! Nothing is too hard for you.

Where do you get the idea that God's power is limited?

A word of warning: To speak of God having limited power shows a lack of the fear of the Lord and that is a dangerous place to be.

hithesh · May 5, 2007

pastorkevin73 said:
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Where do you get the idea that God's power is limited?

A word of warning: To speak of God having limited power shows a lack of the fear of the Lord and that is a dangerous place to be.

Well, that is a crude statement to make to someone whose going through a spiritual crisis.

I might as well say to the widow whose grieving, that doubts the existence of a benevolent God at her moment of grief, that she is nearing the flames of Ghenna.

Good on you.

Jase · May 5, 2007

pastorkevin73 said:
You are mistaken, my brother.

Where do you get the idea that God's power is limited?

A word of warning: To speak of God having limited power shows a lack of the fear of the Lord and that is a dangerous place to be.

So God can exist and not exist at the same time? God can sin?

And from a personal point of view, I'm dealing with a crisis that God apparently can't help with - so don't tell me God can do absolutely anything, because the Bible and reality don't support such a notion.

pastorkevin73 · May 5, 2007

Jase said:
His power has bounds. He can't do that which defies logic. What logical reason would God have for going through the trouble to make the global flood story work, when he could have just vaporized all life on Earth? Yes God could have flooded the Earth, but no he did not, as his creation testifies, unless you are claiming one of God's boundless powers is to completely deceive his creation?

To add to my last post; God does defy human logic. Look at the story of God telling Israel to march around Jericho. Tell me that that is a logical way of fighting a battle.

pastorkevin73 · May 5, 2007

Jase said:
So God can exist and not exist at the same time? God can sin?

And from a personal point of view, I'm dealing with a crisis that God apparently can't help with - so don't tell me God can do absolutely anything, because the Bible and reality don't support such a notion.

I will tell you that God can do anything because he can. I just quoted a verse that does support God being all powerful so the Bible does support that He is all powerful. The Bible is where the theology for an all powerful God comes from.

BTW, God can help in your crisis. The question is are you willing to allow God to work in and through the crisis? This doesn't mean that you will get the desired result, but God is wanting to draw you closer to Him through the experience of the crisis. I don't know what your crisis is, but I will pray for you as you struggle. Blessings!

Jase · May 5, 2007

pastorkevin73 said:
I will tell you that God can do anything because he can. I just quoted a verse that does support God being all powerful so the Bible does support that He is all powerful. The Bible is where the theology for an all powerful God comes from.

The Bible says God can't lie or sin. The words used for omnipotence in Hebrew and Greek do not mean all-powerful.

BTW, God can help in your crisis. The question is are you willing to allow God to work in and through the crisis? This doesn't mean that you will get the desired result, but God is wanting to draw you closer to Him through the experience of the crisis. I don't know what your crisis is, but I will pray for you as you struggle. Blessings!

Funny, since by his lack of help he's pushing me away. God has chosen not to help, so whether he can or not is irrelevant.

Why are we so hard on YECs?

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