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Why are we not born in heaven?

Atha

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WingsOfTheNeophyte said:
I was thinking about this and never found a satisfactory answer, my logical problem stems like this-> Why was I and all the other people born in a world ravaged by a fallen angel and not in heaven in the presence of God? I have asked this question to some Christians and one of them told me that if we were born in heaven then we would not have the choice to do evil, this was not satisfactory because as Christians say Lucifer obviously managed to choose evil in heaven, that means that the specific choice of good or evil exists even in heaven, I was thinking about this for a long time and still it makes no sence to me, why would a loving God put us in this place full of evil, with the full knowledge that many more of us would choose evil and be misguided, torn away from him rather than let us be born in heaven, taught the unquestionable truth about the universe rather than be born here, full of doubt, with many questions around not knowing what is true and as a result of which many will burn in hell for eternity, why not simply be born in heaven?
ah... i think the best thing i could say, is that what about your friends? and also what about your place in helping God? first the friends we have in Heaven are so great to us, and we are great too being angels and pure good no matter what, that we actualy kinda give ourselves away in ways that we always find a way back.. i mean sometimes like having 10$ givin 8$ seems alot but you get back 12 or something, the same with the blessedness ever continuing.. well what if you are so special and God is so great, of corse, that He gives us our best treating friends so that we can even trust so good and give 10 away and get back like 100... well i think in the little boundries of that way its able to be true in certian groups, just our group is actually everyone that goes to Heaven... so the next point is Helping God, which you know about the bad well there is still good, the whole world is mainly good, its just sometimes we need to learn how to get past some stuff, knowing that if we dont go around it will cause us to be let down, or whatever.. so we are given a challenge, again i believe in the life before birth, just not called life, but we do have the same we will be to choose even with God... He only lets us have the choices of what we can handel and all choices are the same in Heaven... for some reason i think this cause of a vision i had once, i was in Heaven with 2 angels on each side looking ahead there were 12 box shaped clouds in a big box, well i didnt know what to do, they all looked the same... so i think that in Heaven we are planned to do what we can do, and we do that for God, something we dont even know about now, but up there it will arive to us as our glory... truly to think about it also, because we were made from so little to so so much, and even ever able to go on, just being a real human we will try to continue, just like Jesus said to some they are the son of the evil well we are the children of God, and will go to Heaven, we are mainly good and not trying to do bad... so i think that if you can see that Heaven kinda is a big step, what if because we were from before, Heaven, the best place, is just the second step... then we will have the chance to walk on... so those in Heaven already will always stay in Heaven, i hope..., i have a hard time believin in the most evil being ever an angel of God... i dont know though...
 
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DiscardedTruths

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So God created me and made me inherit sin? Sinfull at birth? Just because Adam and Eve sinned, God will make everyone else on Earth inherit sin, as a consenquence of this many will go to hell because being born here many will never (and have never) heard of Jesus(or if they did they dismissed, ignored,misinterpreted,diagreed with his teaching), therefore as a consenquence of what Adam and Eve did you are saying God will put people in a situation where he knows statistically most of his children will go to hell? Chance or no chance statistically most will be damned, forgivness or no most will still burn for eternity, because of what? because two people sinned?


I understand completely...Been struggling with similar questions also, trying to see how christian's and bibilical answers match up to a perfectly loving and compassionate God...It's been exceedingly difficult to harmonize them..without giving up my sense of morality(ethics). :sigh:
 
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BarbB

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So God created me and made me inherit sin? Sinfull at birth? Just because Adam and Eve sinned, God will make everyone else on Earth inherit sin, as a consenquence of this many will go to hell because being born here many will never (and have never) heard of Jesus(or if they did they dismissed, ignored,misinterpreted,diagreed with his teaching), therefore as a consenquence of what Adam and Eve did you are saying God will put people in a situation where he knows statistically most of his children will go to hell? Chance or no chance statistically most will be damned, forgivness or no most will still burn for eternity, because of what? because two people sinned?

You didn't inherit sin - you inherited a sin nature which inclines you to sin. Which is why you need a redeemer. As far as those who never heard of Jesus, the Bible says that God took care of that by creation testifying to his existance. I heard of a missionary who converted an entire stone age tribe by telling them of creation, Adam and Eve, sin and Jesus, the Messiah. Their response was "Oh, that's his name". They knew there had to be someone like Jesus so they could be close to God - they just didn't know his name. I love that story - it was on Day of Discovery, I think it was, a couple of years ago.
 
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Rafael

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So God created me and made me inherit sin? Sinfull at birth? Just because Adam and Eve sinned, God will make everyone else on Earth inherit sin, as a consenquence of this many will go to hell because being born here many will never (and have never) heard of Jesus(or if they did they dismissed, ignored,misinterpreted,diagreed with his teaching), therefore as a consenquence of what Adam and Eve did you are saying God will put people in a situation where he knows statistically most of his children will go to hell? Chance or no chance statistically most will be damned, forgivness or no most will still burn for eternity, because of what? because two people sinned?
What other things have you inherited from your family? Jesus was born of a virgin so that He would not inherit the nature to sin that leads to death, and He did that work for you and I. Is life a great gift or not? Does love mean anything when it is shown in all that He did for us at the cross? Love will not exist without a full choice, and Adam failed to obey God's direct warning - thus passing on to all the generation of man the sin nature and the death that results from it, but God so loved the world that He gave HIs Son so that we could once again be free from sin and death....
God didn't decide to make robots who say yes at command. He made us in His image so that we would be family that He could enjoy fellowship with for eternity. Ya can't figure a better way around the deeper laws that we know very little about.
When you have the power to create another living being in your image along with a universe, then you might have a leg to stand on while telling God He doesn't know what He is doing....
We have the choice to remain with the inheritance Adam gave us or to have the inheritance given Jesus - to rule and reign with Him in His Kingdom as brothers and sisters.

Ro 5:17 The sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over us, but all who receive God’s wonderful, gracious gift of righteousness will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ.

Luke 22:29 And just as my Father has granted me a Kingdom, I now grant you the right
30 to eat and drink at my table in that Kingdom. And you will sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Rev. 5:9 And they sang a new song with these words: "You are worthy to take the scroll and break its seals and open it. For you were killed, and your blood has ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 And you have caused them to become God’s Kingdom and his priests. And they will reign on the earth."
11 Then I looked again, and I heard the singing of thousands and millions of angels around the throne and the living beings and the elders.
12 And they sang in a mighty chorus: "The Lamb is worthy—the Lamb who was killed. He is worthy to receive power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing."
 
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EmbracingHim

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This is what I'm trying to understand, I did not commit any sin at birth, apart from what God created me with, why was I and all of you damned here then? (Compared to what heaven is supposed to be like this place is a damnation) Or if I sinned before birth we would be moving into the realms of reincarnation, so is there any official teaching on the subject?

Wingsoftheneophyte,

Let me ask you a question: Have you sinned in your present lifetime? If the answer is yes, then why do you consider that you are above the sin of Adam and Eve (except for the acceptance and belief in Christ, mind you)?

The Orthodox teach that a soul is assigned to a body at the moment of fertilisation of the egg, if there are any orthodox Christians here I would really love to hear you opinion on the subject

The scriptures tell us that God knows us in the womb, before we are born. This found in two places in the Bible. Likewise, we are a soul prior to birth in accordance with scriptural beliefs and this is what you want to know (scriptural beliefs). In this case it also happens to be orthodox beliefs as well.

What was said earlier was true. God created us as humans -- not angels. The scriptures state in Heaven there will be no marrying. The flesh is a beautiful creation and one that lucifer sought after -- still today. The idea as humans is to escape satan. Most certainly, satan was thrown out of the heavens and that is why we see so much sorrow today. It is for a short time though as our lives are but a blink of an eye in comparison to God's time. (The scriptures say that 1 of God's day is 1000 of our own). To understand completely (as you ask important questions), we must have enough knowledge to understand these basics, so we might understand that we do not suffer long as Christ has shown us by coming in the flesh...our lives on this earth as it is -- are passing. We begin dying from the moment we are born. It is like a clock ticking. It is our 'challenge' to overcome this system and be no part of this world.

We do this through Faith and this Faith in Christ helps us to understand how this dismal world means nothing. It is the joy even today that we find in love for one another and the works of God (such as nature, animals...these things the flesh only attempts to create), that makes this life we live now beautiful despite the times we live in. We are some awesome creations (as confused as we all might be). :)

May you be blessed and be in His light in guidance and protection. :hug:
 
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Let me ask you a question: Have you sinned in your present lifetime? If the answer is yes, then why do you consider that you are above the sin of Adam and Eve
I consider that when I was being born I had no sin, therefore above the sin of Adam and Eve, therefore should not be in this sinfull place but born in heaven

Thanks for the answers everyone, but I think I found my own answer, especially Key and EmbracingHim- your posts shine of goodwill, its a rare thing, thankyou
 
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Key

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What wonderful questions you two have asked, and I do so hope that I could provide both of you answers to your dilemma.

I’ll start with this bit.

[FONT=&quot] So G[/FONT]od created me and made me inherit sin? Sinfull at birth? Just because Adam and Eve sinned, God will make everyone else on Earth inherit sin, as a consenquence of this many will go to hell because being born here many will never (and have never) heard of Jesus(or if they did they dismissed, ignored,misinterpreted,diagreed with his teaching), therefore as a consenquence of what Adam and Eve did you are saying God will put people in a situation where he knows statistically most of his children will go to hell? Chance or no chance statistically most will be damned, forgivness or no most will still burn for eternity, because of what? because two people sinned?

Now this a tricky part, and what really has transpired, gets boiled down to “We inherited sin from Adam and Eve” but truth is, Sin, at it’s worst lasts only seven generations (Per Bible Standard), what we inherit is the consequence of the sins of our forbearers.

First and Foremost from Adam and Eve, we have inherited “the knowledge of Good and Evil” this maintained though all their offspring. So although we are “Born Innocent” as a infant does not possess full comprehension of “Evil and Good” while for the most part a Child possess an acute and often unspoiled comprehension of what is “Good and Evil” whereas that “Line” they know as a Child becomes more distorted as they grow into their culture. This is something that they (We all have) received from what Adam and Eve did. What transpires after that is of our own making.

Just as we would inherit possessions (House, Money, Status, Etc) from our forbearers, we also inherit what they have done to this world before us, both the Good and the Bad.

We did not get “Oh, now your born, here is your starting dosage of Sin”, (Abet, not all Christians think this way), but we still have to bear the consequence of what was done before us.

Now, doing “Evil” always seems to not only be easier, but also for many, more enjoyable (It is the having Evil done back to them that rots), this is our “Sin Nature”

IE: it is harder to wait to marriage to have Sex, when the opportunity to have sex with a willing partner presents itself before the marriage bed. Why? Because, well Sex feels Good, and attachment less sex seems to be far more pleasing then to have to pledge a lifetime commitment for it. Seems Simple enough right? But that is our sin nature, if we did not think that way, we would not be “tempted” so easy.

That is all it means, when people talk of a sin nature, that Sin is easy and enjoyable, and a by product of that, it becomes the preferred thing to do, so much so, that we all seem to be gravity towards doing sinful things.

As for Gods Forgiveness and Going to Hell, We need to trust that God is a Judge of Souls, an All knowing God that nothing slips by, that sees a person not as we see them, but as their God and Creator. As such, just as we place our own souls in Gods hands for Judgment, we also must believe that God will not let anyone go to Hell unjustly. This is where we need to also have Faith in Gods Judgment, that God knows more then we do, and that he has a plan for all of us. Jesus is our Savor.

Secondly, we also need to understand that people who have not received the Bible, or been given a chance to know what Sin is, are under a different set of “Laws” then those that have been exposed to Gods Laws. In this, we need to trust that God will never fail in his judgment.

For those that have heard and rejected, what more can be done? As humans our ability stops, as we should not convert by force or fear, but by love. I for one would respect a man who stood before God and said “I saw your followers and wanted nothing to do with them”, as opposed to a man that would stand before God and say “Well you never showed yourself to me”

Many things in our life we do not depend on our “Logic” for, and a Relationship is one of them. That is in the final round, what Christianity is, a Relationship, not a ritual of things to do to please God.

I hope I have provided you insight and answers to your questions.

I understand completely...Been struggling with similar questions also, trying to see how christian's and bibilical answers match up to a perfectly loving and compassionate God...It's been exceedingly difficult to harmonize them..without giving up my sense of morality(ethics). :sigh:

One of the major problems that erupts is that there are a great many “Knee Jerk” answers and “Box God” concepts that float around. For many, there is a personal link between them and God by means of their personal relationship that has taken years and even decades to develop and establish, and to put this comprehension into words fails many times, it would be like seeking to put works into a full relationship between a mother and child, there are such complexities that not only do words fail to grasp it, there is often just too much to even try and explain it all, with it’s vast amounts of nuances, and seemingly contradictory actions. God is not Simple, just as each of us, are not “Simple”.

The Fault might be in too much an attempt to place God into a “Box” that you can fully analyze, but, God is beyond us, and as such, even though our imagination is almost as vast as the universe itself, we need to concede that we could not fit the Creator of the Universe into something inside the universe. This is what I call a “Box God” syndrome, when people try to put God into a nice little package, but then fail to grasp what truly is, and how truly vast and complex, God.

I am not sure if I have provided you an answer to your dilemma, but I hope I have given you a starting point from where to begin your search.

Thanks for the answers everyone, but I think I found my own answer, especially Key and EmbracingHim- your posts shine of goodwill, its a rare thing, thankyou

Always an honor to Help and Provide, thank you for your kind words.

God Bless

Key
 
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EmbracingHim

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:hug: WingsofheNeophyte...you keep blessing me!! (and others as I have shared your generousity a bit). And I notice that your reps have gone up:cool: (a very sweet moderator is to credit [Lel])...

I don't think I can add to what Key wrote...as he has stated, the scriptures state we are born into sin as inherited through Adam and Eve. Prior to this we did not know sin and the world was the paradise it will be again as God does teeter on His plans (a scripture and excuse my poor paraphase).

You see God could have destroyed satan immediately, but He is not a God of destruction (although satan seeks destruction for what he can not have). God gave His once beautiful angel (lucifer) a chance to rebel, just as God gives us this chance as well through free will.

Without free will how could we know that 'love' was 'real' -- instead we would be like robots as the love in our hearts would not be by choice...as it is today ... for every creation of God's Will.

I've held your questions in the past btw. You show the signs of searcher, which will be rewarded greatly (those who seek shall find). Your eyes will exceed that of those who do not have this 'gift' to seek. If I might project a future thought upon you...I believe that God might have large things in store for you. Those who seek usually make wonderful teachers.

Be blessed and loved in the light of Christ that drawns every darkness and reveals blind spot we 'choose' to see. :)



I consider that when I was being born I had no sin, therefore above the sin of Adam and Eve, therefore should not be in this sinfull place but born in heaven

Thanks for the answers everyone, but I think I found my own answer, especially Key and EmbracingHim- your posts shine of goodwill, its a rare thing, thankyou
 
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Snow Angel

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If We are Gods Children,WE are to believe on faith,God Has a plan and it will come to pass,maybe in my life time,maybe in yours.The main thing is to read your bible
so we will not be fooled.Know the signs.It says REVELATION CHAPTER 3 :12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.Sounds like God is coming down to earth to me:
 
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hlaltimus

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I was thinking about this and never found a satisfactory answer, my logical problem stems like this-> Why was I and all the other people born in a world ravaged by a fallen angel and not in heaven in the presence of God? I have asked this question to some Christians and one of them told me that if we were born in heaven then we would not have the choice to do evil, this was not satisfactory because as Christians say Lucifer obviously managed to choose evil in heaven, that means that the specific choice of good or evil exists even in heaven, I was thinking about this for a long time and still it makes no sence to me, why would a loving God put us in this place full of evil, with the full knowledge that many more of us would choose evil and be misguided, torn away from him rather than let us be born in heaven, taught the unquestionable truth about the universe rather than be born here, full of doubt, with many questions around not knowing what is true and as a result of which many will burn in hell for eternity, why not simply be born in heaven?
Hi, We could have been born, (or created,) in heaven as the angels were created there. We could then walk and talk with those Angels there, but we would never walk up to a certain mansion and talk with them in that imposing structure, which mansion was bestowed upon us for our vicarious sufferings for Christ's sake while in the world. The phrase, " 'Yes,' says the Spirit, 'that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.' " of Revelation 14:13a holds much truth. You cannot be recompensed for work which was never performed, and the work of suffering patiently for Christ's sake, evangelising the lost, aiding the afflicted, etc., while in this sin cursed world is simply a work which is not possible to perform in heaven. Heaven is truly a perfect place, I assure you, and therefore Satan never fell from it, but from the second heavens or our universe in it's original perfect state prior to the creation of Adam. He, Satan, figures into our creation in this lower world as God made man for many different reasons, one of which was to put an end to any accusations that Satan would have resorted to in the coming Day of Judgement but now cannot. God is like an infinitely wise Lawyer who has eternally out-planned this adversary. Since we have been created in this world of affliction, it will be rather pointless now for Satan to retort then and there, "Nobody can serve you faithfully...It's impossible!"
Oh Yeh?? The godly of this current ungodly world will be the nails in the coffin of all of Satan's arguments then and there as they have faithfully served this God that he, Satan, claims is unservable, and under the very worst of circumstances as well!! You cannot out-fox an infinitely wise Being, and we shouldn't try to either. It will all make sense when we get there, and that should be our main concern here and now.
 
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EmbracingHim

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Wings of an angel...
So we are here because God feels like He needs to prove something to Satan, like He will make us suffer just to prove His point? Loving indeed

Hmmm...who said that?

We are here because God loved us and did not want to destroy what He had made (nor does he have the need to go back on His original plan). Remember there is not flesh in Heavan (no marrying, etc.). We are unique and wonderful creations of God's design. So much that it brought about evy to the once beautiful angel, 'hassatan,' which literally means 'opposer.' (he who opposes God). We remain as wonderful creation given the freedom to oppose or embrace God.

God wanted us to have free will...even the free will to defy Him. He continues to love us regardless and allows the sun and rain to fall on both those obedient and those failing to love Him.

I hope you might find comfort and understanding in these words. :hug:
 
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