Why are we not born in heaven?

[WingsOfTheNeophyte]

I was thinking about this and never found a satisfactory answer, my logical problem stems like this-> Why was I and all the other people born in a world ravaged by a fallen angel and not in heaven in the presence of God? I have asked this question to some Christians and one of them told me that if we were born in heaven then we would not have the choice to do evil, this was not satisfactory because as Christians say Lucifer obviously managed to choose evil in heaven, that means that the specific choice of good or evil exists even in heaven, I was thinking about this for a long time and still it makes no sence to me, why would a loving God put us in this place full of evil, with the full knowledge that many more of us would choose evil and be misguided, torn away from him rather than let us be born in heaven, taught the unquestionable truth about the universe rather than be born here, full of doubt, with many questions around not knowing what is true and as a result of which many will burn in hell for eternity, why not simply be born in heaven?

 

[XR0391]

I was thinking about this and never found a satisfactory answer, my logical problem stems like this-> Why was I and all the other people born in a world ravaged by a fallen angel and not in heaven in the presence of God? I have asked this question to some Christians and one of them told me that if we were born in heaven then we would not have the choice to do evil, this was not satisfactory because as Christians say Lucifer obviously managed to choose evil in heaven, that means that the specific choice of good or evil exists even in heaven, I was thinking about this for a long time and still it makes no sence to me, why would a loving God put us in this place full of evil, with the full knowledge that many more of us would choose evil and be misguided, torn away from him rather than let us be born in heaven, taught the unquestionable truth about the universe rather than be born here, full of doubt, with many questions around not knowing what is true and as a result of which many will burn in hell for eternity, why not simply be born in heaven?

First of all, man was created to tend to the earth and enjoy it's pleasures. It was technically a 'heaven on earth' due to a connection to God and a lack of pain, sadness, and suffering. In some ways, we are more fortunate then the angels, for we can actually enjoy the expirence of the physical world. Doubt is allowed in this world so that humans would have to make a choice to either reject or love God. The later would be even a greater love than if God was with us since the beginning. That's why he gave humans and angels the power of free will, so that their love wasn't fake and programmed.

Basically, we're here because God ordained our species on this planet. There wasn't doubt of God in the beginning, only after man disobeyed God. Man, despite not having knowledge of good and evil, could have still obeyed God, but didn't. As far as the fallen angels go, I personally believe God was having mercy on them and giving them a second chance. Why would he throw them to earth and not completely destroy them? I believe it's more of a "Time out and think about what you're doing" thing.

Best wishes.

 

[TexasGirl06]

I was thinking about this and never found a satisfactory answer, my logical problem stems like this-> Why was I and all the other people born in a world ravaged by a fallen angel and not in heaven in the presence of God? I have asked this question to some Christians and one of them told me that if we were born in heaven then we would not have the choice to do evil, this was not satisfactory because as Christians say Lucifer obviously managed to choose evil in heaven, that means that the specific choice of good or evil exists even in heaven, I was thinking about this for a long time and still it makes no sence to me, why would a loving God put us in this place full of evil, with the full knowledge that many more of us would choose evil and be misguided, torn away from him rather than let us be born in heaven, taught the unquestionable truth about the universe rather than be born here, full of doubt, with many questions around not knowing what is true and as a result of which many will burn in hell for eternity, why not simply be born in heaven?

Well.... when God created man and placed him in the Garden, earth was perfect and without sin.

When sin entered the picture (Adam & Eve disobeying), the fallen world began.

So, God did provide for us to be in a perfect place...and we people messed that up on our own.

 

[someonestruth]

The only answer to that I've ever heard was that we have the spirit of a baby and that when we are born into the world we are given that spirit. It is only here that we can grow spiritually. Of course your whole shpeel about Satan kinda nixes that but...well he was an angel. Prolly a whole different spiritual manifestation than something physical that is created by God.

What's really odd is how little God really wants us to know about anything. There are so many questions the Bible doesn't answer that the response 'You just have to have faith that God knows his crap' doesn't cut it for me.

Here's an even better one for ya.

So what age is a spirit put into a human body hmm?

Let's say that a couple is deciding to have an abortion. Here are the possible situations that could arise.

A. The baby is sent to Hell because of what the parents did. The Holy Bible does say we are born into this world as sinners after all...God is obviously a monster.

B. The baby is sent to Heaven. As that is the goal of all existence wouldn't be everyone's duty to abort their babies? This would end the cycle of pain and suffering we experience on Earth and sure would make God angry...he wants us here to suffer...so we can grow right?

C. Spirits aren't put into the child until it is able to make some sort of choice. Thus the body just dies and nothing spiritual occurs. The baby never experiences pain, discomfort, anything seeing as though its brain is less developed at this point as a rat. And boy don't we love killing/exterminating rats (I'm not calling fetuses rats...just comparing their development).

I'm not sure why someone would have a problem with abortion because we're either saving a child from having a miserable life with parents that don't want them, or sending them to heaven. Unless you believe in option A...

 

[WingsOfTheNeophyte]

only after man disobeyed God

we people messed that up on our own

This is what I'm trying to understand, I did not commit any sin at birth, apart from what God created me with, why was I and all of you damned here then? (Compared to what heaven is supposed to be like this place is a damnation) Or if I sinned before birth we would be moving into the realms of reincarnation, so is there any official teaching on the subject?

C. Spirits aren't put into the child until it is able to make some sort of choice. Thus the body just dies and nothing spiritual occurs. The baby never experiences pain, discomfort, anything seeing as though its brain is less developed at this point as a rat. And boy don't we love killing/exterminating rats (I'm not calling fetuses rats...just comparing their development).

The Orthodox teach that a soul is assigned to a body at the moment of fertilisation of the egg, if there are any orthodox Christians here I would really love to hear you opinion on the subject

 

[seajoy]

The only answer to that I've ever heard was that we have the spirit of a baby and that when we are born into the world we are given that spirit. It is only here that we can grow spiritually. Of course your whole shpeel about Satan kinda nixes that but...well he was an angel. Prolly a whole different spiritual manifestation than something physical that is created by God.

What's really odd is how little God really wants us to know about anything. There are so many questions the Bible doesn't answer that the response 'You just have to have faith that God knows his crap' doesn't cut it for me.

Here's an even better one for ya.

So what age is a spirit put into a human body hmm?

Let's say that a couple is deciding to have an abortion. Here are the possible situations that could arise.

A. The baby is sent to Hell because of what the parents did. The Holy Bible does say we are born into this world as sinners after all...God is obviously a monster.

B. The baby is sent to Heaven. As that is the goal of all existence wouldn't be everyone's duty to abort their babies? This would end the cycle of pain and suffering we experience on Earth and sure would make God angry...he wants us here to suffer...so we can grow right?

C. Spirits aren't put into the child until it is able to make some sort of choice. Thus the body just dies and nothing spiritual occurs. The baby never experiences pain, discomfort, anything seeing as though its brain is less developed at this point as a rat. And boy don't we love killing/exterminating rats (I'm not calling fetuses rats...just comparing their development).

I'm not sure why someone would have a problem with abortion because we're either saving a child from having a miserable life with parents that don't want them, or sending them to heaven. Unless you believe in option A...

God gives us the amount of information we need to be saved. He knows what we need, & when we need it. Just because we think there is not enough info, or that we don't like His answers, does not mean God has forgotten something, or that He's out to get us.

But we know this for sure. We are not lords over the lives of others (no matter how small). God created little ones, in His image. He knows what they need, and where they are going. Lord help us if we think we know better then Him.

seajoy

 

[someonestruth]

Anyway...God gives us the amount of information we need to be saved. He knows what we need, & when we need it. Just because we think there is not enough info, or that we don't like His answers, does not mean God has forgotten something, or that He's out to get us.

If God gave us all the information then he forgot how to express it to us because there are hundreds of branches of Christianity. This is because of the nature of language, and that is to change and to have different meaning to each individual who interprets it. A book was without a doubt the worst way imaginable for him to speak to us. It touched so many human hands and the words used to communicate to us are so vague that I don't see how two christians could agree on anything...I digress.

 

[nathans1987]

this earth was perfict a heaven if you like when god first made it. only sin has casued it to become what it is now. the only reason that were not born in heaven is because god is makeing the new one and waiting for everyone on earth to have the chance of going to heaven(ie hear the word) not all the places in the wourld have heard the truth yet

 

[WingsOfTheNeophyte]

sin has casued it to become what it is now. the only reason that were not born in heaven is because god is makeing the new one and waiting for everyone on earth to have the chance of going to heaven(ie hear the word) not all the places in the wourld have heard the truth yet

If the Lord wanted all people to hear a truth he would have simply told it to them, since he is omnipotent, If the Lord wanted to make a heaven he woulde have made one in at least 100 years, I mean if it took 6 days to make the Earth & stars (the universe) surely he could have made a heaven in 100 years? Or at least got rid of Satan in this world? Why would an omnipotent God have an evil figure dragging his children away from him?

 

[nathans1987]

yeah how good is heaven gonna be if he is taking this long to make it . god has never just goten rid of any thing in the wourld he made hell to banish them to there but they will still be there just locked away. i dont know why satan isnt locked away yet but he will be when everyone else that rejects him is. i guess thats why he is still aroud because no one is in hell yet(the lake of fire hell). he has tryed to drag us wasy from evil through jesus etc. but we chose to continue being evil.

 

[seajoy]

You forgot to put a smiley afterwards to feel completely guilt-free of your question.
To honestly answer your question, I've been Baptist for nearly all of my life but I changed many things about my beliefs now.


If God gave us all the information then he forgot how to express it to us because there are hundreds of branches of Christianity. This is because of the nature of language, and that is to change and to have different meaning to each individual who interprets it. A book was without a doubt the worst way imaginable for him to speak to us. It touched so many human hands and the words used to communicate to us are so vague that I don't see how two christians could agree on anything...I digress.



That's your answer because you don't want to think. You still haven't given a response to my question. Do you believe in option A, B, or C?

Sorry about the smiley, but I really was wondering. I did not mean to offend.

Hmmmm...I don't want to think? You might have forgotten your smiley, too . I try not to guess on things, although it is hard sometimes. My mind is not capable of understanding all the things of God...that has to be enough for now. Your A, B, or C options, have your own attached reasons. You are only human.
Be not deceived, God is not mocked. (from Galatians chapter 6). You cannot test God. You cannot make a fool of Him.

seajoy

 

[XR0391]

If the Lord wanted all people to hear a truth he would have simply told it to them, since he is omnipotent, If the Lord wanted to make a heaven he woulde have made one in at least 100 years, I mean if it took 6 days to make the Earth & stars (the universe) surely he could have made a heaven in 100 years? Or at least got rid of Satan in this world? Why would an omnipotent God have an evil figure dragging his children away from him?

Satan doesn't force us to go astray, he merely temps us to test our true character and show our need for God. God will eventually show himself again to the world, but then it will be over. If God was here, our mortal decision to follow or not to follow him would be over as well, and athiests would have to admit his existance. Therefor, there is no longer a freedom to decide for yourself. Yes, God wants everyone to come to him, but not because they're forced to, but rather because they had faith in his word. As far as heaven goes... right now it's pretty much a spiritual realm. Yes, God is waiting until the very last moment to end this Earth so that as many people as want to can come back to him. After that, this earth and that spiritual realm will be replaced with a new earth and heaven.

Edit: "If the Lord wanted all people to hear a truth he would have told them..."

Yeah. He did. And they wrote it down so that we may hear what he has to say. =p

 

[Rafael]

This is what I'm trying to understand, I did not commit any sin at birth, apart from what God created me with, why was I and all of you damned here then? (Compared to what heaven is supposed to be like this place is a damnation) Or if I sinned before birth we would be moving into the realms of reincarnation, so is there any official teaching on the subject? The Orthodox teach that a soul is assigned to a body at the moment of fertilisation of the egg, if there are any orthodox Christians here I would really love to hear you opinion on the subject

Can real love exist between two without a choice? God gave special priviledge to man as a creation - to have love and fellowship with Him, our Creator. The only risk of giving a choice is that the wrong choice could be taken. God made provision for that wrong choice by giving His own life in the flesh for our sins. What more can He do - to create man as special and beloved and then give with His own pain and suffering to redeem that beloved from death?

 

[Key]

Hello WingsoftheNeophyte and Welcome to Christian Forums. I hope you enjoy your time here.

Now on to your Question.

I was thinking about this and never found a satisfactory answer, my logical problem stems like this-> Why was I and all the other people born in a world ravaged by a fallen angel and not in heaven in the presence of God?

Well first off, As I understand it, Heaven is a place beyond flesh and blood, as such, being “Born” into a “Place of Spirit” is not a viable option. All that was in heaven before man was Given the Chance to enter heaven, was a Construct of God, not something born.

I have asked this question to some Christians and one of them told me that if we were born in heaven then we would not have the choice to do evil, this was not satisfactory because as Christians say Lucifer obviously managed to choose evil

Noting first off that Lucifer was not, nor shall he ever be Human, o(r mortal for that matter), different rules most likely apply to Him as well as all the other Angels that are in heaven (or those that are currently in Hell).

that means that the specific choice of good or evil exists even in heaven,

For some, although, that in no way applies a Humans right to the same ability or capacity. As it stands, an Angel is given a different set of rules as well as a different set of abilities compared to Humans.

We also need to take into consideration, that God, will not allow disobedience or sin in his presences so as such, such ability from his Followers would not be an option. Hence why the inability for a Human to commit a sin in Heaven.

I was thinking about this for a long time and still it makes no sence to me, why would a loving God put us in this place full of evil,

We made the evil here, so if anyone is to blame for the Evil in our would, it is us. If we and our forefathers had maintained to follow and adhere to Gods Laws, and had taken up or crosses and followed Jesus, then our “Place Full of Evil” would not exist, or at the very least, not to the extent that it is right now.

many more of us would choose evil and be misguided, torn away from him

If we were “Born in Heaven” and were able to choose to do evil, then the outcome would not be different. God had decreed that Sin will not be in His presence, so, what would have happened is little more then a Salvation less existence of walking on Eggshells in Fear of doing Wrong in Gods House, with the instant punish of Hell right on the spot of our first transgression. And somehow you view that as better then being able to make a mistake and seek forgiveness for it?

rather than let us be born in heaven, taught the unquestionable truth about the universe rather than be born here, full of doubt, with many questions around not knowing what is true and as a result of which many will burn in hell for eternity, why not simply be born in heaven?

I believe I have answered this consideration in the above statements.

Have I answered your Question to your satisfaction?

God Bless

Key

 

[s_gunter]

This thread is reopened. However, if this thread becomes a debate/discussion about abortion, it will be moved to the appropriate forum, per rule 3.5:

3.5 Controversial Topics to Be Discussed Only in Certain Forums

A. You will not post content regarding the following subjects anywhere on CF except in Ethics & Morality, Liberal Theology, Christian Philosophy, or any subforums in the Congregation or Recovery* categories:

drug use
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homosexuality
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abortion

*You will not make posts promoting or endorsing any of these subjects in Recovery forums.

B. Controversial doctrines listed below must be discussed in the Unorthodox Theological Doctrines or Liberal Theology forums only:

Full Preterism
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Annihilationism
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[WingsOfTheNeophyte]

Hello WingsoftheNeophyte and Welcome to Christian Forums. I hope you enjoy your time here.

Thanks hopefully I will,

Have I answered your Question to your satisfaction?

Yes- thanks, so far the best answer I have found for this question

 

[Elenakiara]

This question seems weird to me somehow. It's like saying, those people who grow up to be mean, why weren't they just born in hell?
I think our lives here are to shape us into who we really are and some 'mean' people can still be saved. I'd rather have many years of life here to learn than to be born into a place where we have to try and be sinless right away.

 

[elf_lady_9]

This is what I'm trying to understand, I did not commit any sin at birth, apart from what God created me with, why was I and all of you damned here then? (Compared to what heaven is supposed to be like this place is a damnation) Or if I sinned before birth we would be moving into the realms of reincarnation, so is there any official teaching on the subject?

the Bible tells us that we are sinful at birth.(not before birth; we were non-existent before birth) Not because God created us with sin, but because Adam and Eve, the first humans, disobeyed God and sinned, and now all human beings now inherit their sinfulness. it's kinda like how alcoholism is hereditary. if a parent is addicted to alcohol, then you're more likely to become addicted. well, instead of just one bad trait, we inherited Sin in its entirety. and we all are sinners; there's no escape, except through Christ.

and while earth is horrible in comparison to Heaven, compared to actual damnnation, this place is heaven-like. i'm just grateful we don't have to stay here forever and that God gives us a chance too go to Heaven, instead of letting us all burn forever in Hell like we deserve.

Bethany

 

[elf_lady_9]

Even Jesus, being both the son of Man and the son of God...must've inheirited that Sin.

I suppose that would've been when he cursed God with his last dying words (Why hast thou forsaken me?) or maybe if you like the other ending (Father into your arms, I commit my spirit) ...wait a sec...two endings?

This Bible is better than Final Destination 3!

umm, Jesus did not inherit sin; He was fully God as well as fully human and as such He was perfect. He was the only sinless human being, which was the only reason why He could die in our place. and Jesus did not curse God. "Why hast thou forsaken me?" is not a curse. it's not even a real question; Jesus knew why God had forsaken Him. it was simply the mournful cry of a man in horrible agony. Jesus felt pain just like we do. just because he was willing to suffer all that for us doesn't mean He enjoyed it. but He did not curse God.

and you're right, the Bible is better than Final Destination 3. the Bible makes sense, if you actually try to understand it.

no offense, but for someone who claims to be a Christian you seem to be extremely bitter and cynical about the whole thing.

Bethany

 

[WingsOfTheNeophyte]

the Bible tells us that we are sinful at birth.(not before birth; we were non-existent before birth) Not because God created us with sin, but because Adam and Eve, the first humans, disobeyed God and sinned, and now all human beings now inherit their sinfulness. it's kinda like how alcoholism is hereditary. if a parent is addicted to alcohol, then you're more likely to become addicted. well, instead of just one bad trait, we inherited Sin in its entirety. and we all are sinners; there's no escape, except through Christ.

So God created me and made me inherit sin? Sinfull at birth? Just because Adam and Eve sinned, God will make everyone else on Earth inherit sin, as a consenquence of this many will go to hell because being born here many will never (and have never) heard of Jesus(or if they did they dismissed, ignored,misinterpreted,diagreed with his teaching), therefore as a consenquence of what Adam and Eve did you are saying God will put people in a situation where he knows statistically most of his children will go to hell? Chance or no chance statistically most will be damned, forgivness or no most will still burn for eternity, because of what? because two people sinned?