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Mar 21, 2013
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I do find it interesting and very confirming that those who have had near death experiences almost unanimously state that life is about learning how to love others and reality, and expressing it through our lives in a fresh, creative and real way. With "love" meant in the broadest sense of the word.

And this is a pretty-much universal understanding after a NDE, regardless of beliefs beforehand (many were fundamentalists who believed you had to belong to a particular religion, others were atheists who felt that life is just a random happening).
 
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ContraMundum

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I do find it interesting and very confirming that those who have had near death experiences almost unanimously state that life is about learning how to love others and reality, and expressing it through our lives in a fresh, creative and real way. With "love" meant in the broadest sense of the word.

And this is a pretty-much universal understanding after a NDE, regardless of beliefs beforehand (many were fundamentalists who believed you had to belong to a particular religion, others were atheists who felt that life is just a random happening).

What I find interesting about NDE's is that they almost always reflect the beliefs of the one having the experience.
 
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dlamberth

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What I find interesting about NDE's is that they almost always reflect the beliefs of the one having the experience.
That's not suprising to me. I think that's because a persons beliefs are the only form we know how to relate to. We can't relate to something we don't believe in. Our beliefs are how we relate to life. Our beliefs run so deep that they even reside in our sub-conscious and come up in other areas such as our dreams and even in how we judge other people.

.
 
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bling

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Wow! I read all the posts and find them mostly depressing.

If there is this eternal intelligence it would be at the epitome of the best it could be and not in the process of improvement. It would be the ultimate bad or good but not somewhere in-between. Why be bad when it can be good just as easily? The ultimate “good” would be what is called Godly type Love (to be defined later) and is totally unselfish type Love.


If there is this Creator of the universe out there, His “creations” could not really “do” anything for Him, so this Creator would have to be seen as a Giver (Unselfish Lover) and not trying to “get” something from His creation.

So God would create the right universe for the sake of the individuals that will accept His gift (the most powerful force in all universes that compels even God to do all He does) and become like He is.

What keeps the all powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation?

There are something even an all powerful Creator cannot do and the one thing He cannot do that would apply to humans is create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it His Love. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice that has real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)

This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or even deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).

This means God would be doing all He can to help willing individuals to make that free will decision to accept His Love. Again, since God will not be forcing these individuals, they have to be willing (it is their choice) and God cannot “make” them willing since that is robotic action. God can only at best make them free will agent (like God is) and capable of make the right decision.

This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). Few people that call themselves Christians seem to even have this type love or do a good job of hiding it. If you see this Love you see God. Church might not be the best place to find this Love, but where there are huge tragedies there hopefully you can find God Loving others through these Christians.

Let me just give you an example of How God works to help willing individuals.

All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief. Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

You really need to read the Gospels because this “Love” is defined by all Christ did and said.

This is just an introduction on the objective of man Love.
 
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ContraMundum

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That's not suprising to me. I think that's because a persons beliefs are the only form we know how to relate to. We can't relate to something we don't believe in. Our beliefs are how we relate to life. Our beliefs run so deep that they even reside in our sub-conscious and come up in other areas such as our dreams and even in how we judge other people.

.

I'm on that page too. God uses what people understand to speak to them.
 
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Zoness

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Wow! I read all the post and find them mostly depressing.

If there is this eternal intelligence it would be at the epitome of the best it could be and not in the process of improvement. It would be the ultimate bad or good but not somewhere in-between. Why be bad when it can be good just as easily? The ultimate “good” would be what is called Godly type Love (to be defined later) and is totally unselfish type Love.


If there is this Creator of the universe out there, His “creations” could not really “do” anything for Him, so this Creator would have to be seen as a Giver (Unselfish Lover) and not trying to “get” something from His creation.

So God would create the right universe for the sake of the individuals that will accept His gift (the most powerful force in all universes that compels even God to do all He does) and become like He is.

What keeps the all powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation?

There are something even an all powerful Creator cannot do and the one thing He cannot do that would apply to humans is create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it His Love. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice that has real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)

This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or even deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).

This means God would be doing all He can to help willing individuals to make that free will decision to accept His Love. Again, since God will not be forcing these individuals, they have to be willing (it is their choice) and God cannot “make” them willing since that is robotic action. God can only at best make them free will agent (like God is) and capable of make the right decision.

This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). Few people that call themselves Christians seem to even have this type love or do a good job of hiding it. If you see this Love you see God. Church might not be the best place to find this Love, but where there are huge tragedies there hopefully you can find God Loving others through these Christians.

Let me just give you an example of How God works to help willing individuals.

All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief. Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

You really need to read the Gospels because this “Love” is defined by all Christ did and said.

This is just an introduction on the objective of man Love.

To me, all of this is negated by the concept of an eternal hell for not believing the right set of bullet points.



Why are we are? I'm not even sure if there is a reason outside of the one we create; I am feeling borderline Nihilist.
 
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What I find interesting about NDE's is that they almost always reflect the beliefs of the one having the experience.

That not congruent with any studies of the phenomenon I've ever read. I would love to see the studies you are referring to that demonstrate that NDEs simply "reflect the beliefs of the one having the experience."

NDEs change peoples beliefs - broadly speaking, to become universalist in their religious views, to believe that love is the purpose of existence, and to become believers in life after death. They also tend to make people less materialistic and less "type A personalities".

We simply do NOT see a bunch of fundamentalist Christians who have NDEs and come back believing that atheists and Muslims go to hell.

Atheists who have NDEs almost always come back believing that consciousness is not created by the body.

Here are a few links to studies of NDE experiencers and changes in beliefs:

The Lancet: Near-death experience in survivors of cardiac arrest

http://www.newdualism.org/nde-paper...ournal of Near-Death Studies_1990-9-21-31.pdf

Purpose/Life Review
 
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bling

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To me, all of this is negated by the concept of an eternal hell for not believing the right set of bullet points.



Why are we are? I'm not even sure if there is a reason outside of the one we create; I am feeling borderline Nihilist.
First off: The Bible talks about an eternal flame which really means “Nothing can put it out”, but does not mean it could not go out over time and everything that goes into this flame will eventually be burned up. Those that go to hell do not have an eternal life even in hell.

If a person repeatedly refuses God’s Love to the point that person will never accept God’s Love (and God would be the one to know this) than that person would not be happy in heaven where there is a huge Love Feast going on (but that “Love” is only Godly type Love (unselfish type Love).

A person that refuses to fulfill His/her main earthly objective takes on a much lesser objective of helping those that are still willing to fulfill their objective and they might do so. That “help” includes their going to hell.
 
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GabrielWithoutWings

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NDEs change peoples beliefs - broadly speaking, to become universalist in their religious views, to believe that love is the purpose of existence, and to become believers in life after death. They also tend to make people less materialistic and less "type A personalities".

We simply do NOT see a bunch of fundamentalist Christians who have NDEs and come back believing that atheists and Muslims go to hell.

Atheists who have NDEs almost always come back believing that consciousness is not created by the body.

While I'm not going to go into the whole dying-brain vs cosmic love debate, there is a question that I always wonder.

What about people who become clinically dead and then come back, remembering nothing and seeing nothing? I went to school with a girl who ended up in a car accident and died for several minutes on the operating table. I excitedly asked later if she saw or felt anything. She stated she had no memory of anything and that it was like what happens when you sleep. You're there, you're not there, then you're there again with no memory of what happened in-between.

I would imagine that most people experience this. Why are some people greeted with infinite love and dead relatives and some greeted with existential nothingness?
 
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dlamberth

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First off: The Bible talks about an eternal flame which really means “Nothing can put it out”, but does not mean it could not go out over time and everything that goes into this flame will eventually be burned up. Those that go to hell do not have an eternal life even in hell.

If a person repeatedly refuses God’s Love to the point that person will never accept God’s Love (and God would be the one to know this) than that person would not be happy in heaven where there is a huge Love Feast going on (but that “Love” is only Godly type Love (unselfish type Love).

A person that refuses to fulfill His/her main earthly objective takes on a much lesser objective of helping those that are still willing to fulfill their objective and they might do so. That “help” includes their going to hell.

I'm just so glad that this Lover of God has been freed from all of that stuff. I see our soul as an activity of God. Which means that our essence, or our soul if you will, is Love. Love is our true inner essence. As such, I see no separation between our soul and God. In other words, there is no Hell, there is only God.

.
 
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gord44

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I'm just so glad that this Lover of God has been freed from all of that stuff. I see our soul as an activity of God. Which means that our essence, or our soul if you will, is Love. Love is our true inner essence. As such, I see no separation between our soul and God. In other words, there is no Hell, there is only God.

.

Well put as always. :thumbsup:
 
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I would imagine that most people experience this. Why are some people greeted with infinite love and dead relatives and some greeted with existential nothingness?

I would not say those people were greeted with "existential nothingness". I'd suggest their consciousness simply didn't "detach" from their body. What they experienced is much the same as what we all experience in the deep dreamless sleep.

Also, near-death experiences can and do frequently occur in circumstances where the body is not shut down at all - such as a car accident that is narrowly avoided, a fall off the mountain where the person is saved by their climbing rope (and hence does not sustain any serious injury at all), and, rarely, spontaneously in people who are neither near death nor in significant peril. This is why many simplistic materialist "explanations" fail to hold water - they talk about things like oxygen deprivation, brain trauma, and the like, and phenomenologically similar NDEs occur in all kinds of different body and brain conditions - awake, asleep, in a coma, flatlined, and completely unharmed.

My view is that everyone will have something similar to a near-death experience when their body dies permanently (although it is likely for some it might be preceded by an interlude quiet unconsciousness). I view the brain as a filter that blocks much of the light of consciousness / reality, and when the brain's life ends, we will be much more open to the whole of reality. I fully expect that our individuality will be reduced after death - perhaps I will view "Matthew" as simply a dream I had for a brief moment, and I will savor his life, the good and the bad of it, seeing it in the context with everyone else's life in a more objective way. By the same token, I do not expect a complete loss of individuality either.

As to the existential question why some get to have this kind of experience (which is generally life-transformative) and why others do not, that is itself a deep mystery. I have not had a near-death experience, but I had a very powerful spiritually transformative experience at age 18, and less intense but also very meaningful experiences other times in my own life. And I talk to many people who have never had anything similar.

In some ways it seems profoundly unfair: why should some be given a "vision of heaven" and others not? It is much easier (in many cases, trivially easy) for people with profound spiritual experiences to accept life after death, the meaningfulness of existence, the importance of love, the connection between all of us.

It certainly doesn't seem to be the result of a special moral character that experiencers have. More like an incredible, beautiful gift, unearned and undeserved, an opportunity to see the depths of reality that most are not given.

In my 44 years on this planet, I have come to realize, more and more, that God loves diversity. Diversity in all its forms. If, as I believe, it is ultimately God that is perceiving all reality and experiencing all lives, then it seems God wishes to view Reality from every possible vantage point, saint and sinner, atheist and believer, male and female, oak, fox, eagle and human being. I think God wants to see what each one of decides to do with our lives, given our abilities, experiences and beliefs. And from all of this, the most beautiful yet poignant and inexpressible story is written in Mind (which is ultimately all that exists).

I don't know everything. Far from. But this is what my own life tells and shows me is going on. And each day I have left, to love others, to share, to reach out, to connect, to smile together. This is what I am trying to make my life about.
 
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I'm just so glad that this Lover of God has been freed from all of that stuff. I see our soul as an activity of God. Which means that our essence, or our soul if you will, is Love. Love is our true inner essence. As such, I see no separation between our soul and God. In other words, there is no Hell, there is only God.

.

Very perceptive.

In my view, in the end hell, which is a feeling of profound existential disconnection from others and from life, becomes a flagstone in the road leading to heaven, and is seen to have never been a real hell after all.

As someone who has been there often enough, I offer up my faith and trust that God redeems everything, all pain and suffering. And that, in the end, nothing was ever meaningless. I can see it and taste it in the context of my own personal hellish experiences, and I believe it holds true across the board.
 
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dlamberth

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In my 44 years on this planet, I have come to realize, more and more, that God loves diversity. Diversity in all its forms. If, as I believe, it is ultimately God that is perceiving all reality and experiencing all lives, then it seems God wishes to view Reality from every possible vantage point, saint and sinner, atheist and believer, male and female, oak, fox, eagle and human being. I think God wants to see what each one of decides to do with our lives, given our abilities, experiences and beliefs. And from all of this, the most beautiful yet poignant and inexpressible story is written in Mind (which is ultimately all that exists).
What you wrote is central to my own spiritual way of seeing things but written way better than I could ever hope to have done. Thank You!

.
 
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Eyes wide Open

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Why are we here, today, now?

I believe we are here to learn through our lives the meaning of love and beauty. And the best way to do that is to see the love and beauty of God in every person who we come across today.

“For each of the creatures is a sign of God, and it was by the grace of the Lord and His power that each did step into the world” - Abdu'l-Baha


We are here to create. That's what life does.
 
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gord44

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And from all of this, the most beautiful yet poignant and inexpressible story is written in Mind (which is ultimately all that exists).

Indeed. And I think the true principle of spirituality is the connection between all things, and in essence, the Mind, the Higher Self, the Atman. When one realizes the connection between all things, then true love can begin.
 
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dlamberth

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Indeed. And I think the true principle of spirituality is the connection between all things, and in essence, the Mind, the Higher Self, the Atman. When one realizes the connection between all things, then true love can begin.
Agreed!! :thumbsup:

.
 
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bling

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Indeed. And I think the true principle of spirituality is the connection between all things, and in essence, the Mind, the Higher Self, the Atman. When one realizes the connection between all things, then true love can begin.
The “connection” I see between all things is that fact everything has been done, allowed to happen or will be done to help willing individuals fulfill their earthly objective.

You might want to read my post 44.
 
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