Why are we creating less jobs for people and not more? Universal Basic Income?

[Trogdor the Burninator]

My question to those who support Capitalism (the way we have it in America today): why are we trying to do away with millions of jobs for the sake of saving money (by being more efficient?)

But that is capitalism. Capitalism (usually - not always) strives to find more efficient ways to do something. Replacing dull, repetitive, and potentially dangerous jobs with automation makes lots of sense.

As for UBI - the idea is not that people will just stay home and do nothing, the idea is that a UBI will supplement people's income, especially those on lower wages. Those people will then be able to spend more, which will push more money into and improve the economy.

 

[Hvizsgyak]

The problem is that technology marches on and more and more jobs are being taken away from workers by corporations. This concentrates the wealth in the hands of those in big business.

So if there was a UBI then the most well off would contribute more and the jobs that need to be done by people would have to pay at least as much as the UBI to make them attractive enough for people to want to do them. So there’s you minimum wage forced on to the business sector (by the invisible hand of the market).

There’s a bit of research out there and some of it (if I recall) says that when UBI has been trialled people reducing their hours was mostly limited to mums (who could spend more time with the kids at home) or teens (who could then devote more time to studies).

So as far as I can see the only people who would lose out are the corporations. Businesses that were not paying a living wage would suffer but I don’t see that as a problem as they are parasites on society.

Ultimately this would lead to less wealth inequality and fewer extremely poor people because there would be more of the pie for everyone.

I reckon Jesus would have liked looking after the poor and not the corporations.

In our America, I'm not sure if people would use the idle time at home for good use. Alot of people here love video games and the metaverse and just hanging out and partying and they can spend hours doing those things at a time. My wife is a teacher and she says the kids are into social media constantly even during class time. Doesn't give one a good feeling about our future leaders.

But don't get me wrong, big corporation are setting the pace as to what kind of work we do, how fast it needs to be done, when we can have a break and when we can retire and so on. They are the last people I feel who should be setting those parameters. The labor force should be setting those parameters for the workers so people aren't being taken advantage of by a greed corporate boss.

The problem is that technology marches on and more and more jobs are being taken away from workers by corporations. This concentrates the wealth in the hands of those in big business.

I agree with you that technology continues to make great strides into the human workforce and that good. But in every company there is work that gets pushed aside by workers (as being unimportant and not profitable to waste time on), why don't these corporation hire people to do those jobs (which really do need to be done to keep the company in tip top form). Example, at our office we have hundreds of documents stack (not very neatly) that should be filed away. Nobody does because it doesn't fall into any body's job description (do you remember the days when we had secretaries at practically every job?) Companies get rid of these positions to save money but they are needed by the workers.

We need a better financial system. One that keeps people working, pays them a good living wage and doesn't need to worry so much about huge profits (otherwise, it will always have a secure future until it is desolved by the owner or no one uses it anymore.)

And I hate to tell you, but Jesus would not want good healthy people sitting playing games all day.

Sorry about whining so much, I appreciate you commenting. God bless you, my friend

 

[Hvizsgyak]

That’s not going to happen.

I know, I reluctantly agree with you. You probably work for a company here. Aren't there tasks at your company that are put off by the workers because the take too much time to do and time is money so therefore these tasks get pushed down the road for another day. Corporations need to hire people to do those tasks that nobody else has time for hence creating new jobs.

I know it's not profitable for the company but the tasks need to get done so that office life would be more organized and run smoother. These are jobs that automation can't do (at least not yet) only humans can do.

I just don't get this stay home and have a check mailed to you and let automation do the work. In my eyes that's laziness.

 

[Hvizsgyak]

Wish it was a micro-managing slave driver. Nope. Got a co-worker that makes my life miserable each and every day because she can. It's not just me, but everyone at work. She is insubordinate, she doesn't do her job right and she puts donors at risk because she isn't doing her job right. We have taken it to HR, we have taken it to our regional manager and our center manager, and nothing is being done. They just won't fire her.

She even goes as far as dictating how I do my job and when I can leave even if it is my off-time and she is not a manager or anything. We are equals in rank.

Tired of it! She even claims to be a Christian, but does not act like one in the least.

Sorry to hear that. It's difficult working with someone who thinks they "are the right way" to do things and they let everyone know. Try to keep your chin up and pretend to go along with them if you can. If not, tune them out with some nice pleasant music.

 

[Hvizsgyak]

Who knows what they may get up to?
(Though, it sort of sounds like “heaven”, no?)

Hey, there is lots of praying going on up there. With the world the way it is now, the saints in Heaven are on triple overtime.

 

[Desk trauma]

I know it's not profitable for the company but the tasks need to get done so that office life

Never worked in one of those, every job I have ever had has been skilled or unskilled physical labor.

 

[Hvizsgyak]

But that is capitalism. Capitalism (usually - not always) strives to find more efficient ways to do something. Replacing dull, repetitive, and potentially dangerous jobs with automation makes lots of sense.

As for UBI - the idea is not that people will just stay home and do nothing, the idea is that a UBI will supplement people's income, especially those on lower wages. Those people will then be able to spend more, which will push more money into and improve the economy.

That not what I got from the two videos I posted. Yes if you want one would not be penalized if he/she did find another job and also received the Universal Basic Income (UBI). But the UBI would be enough to allow one to stay home from his/her automation job.

 

[Hvizsgyak]

Never worked in one of those, every job I have ever had has been skilled or unskilled physical labor.

Pretty much all companies though cut corners on their work to some degree or another. Painters paint great but their cleanup is atrocious. Bathrooms at restaurants and convenience store should be nicer. There should be two policemen in each squad car. At any restaurant counter there should be at least two people taking food orders only (no preparing food too). Teachers should all have assistants in the classroom. Offices should have three or four people doing tech support for the workers.

Anyway, I'm rambling. Hope you continue to have good success at your work.

 

[RDKirk]

But that is capitalism. Capitalism (usually - not always) strives to find more efficient ways to do something. Replacing dull, repetitive, and potentially dangerous jobs with automation makes lots of sense.

As for UBI - the idea is not that people will just stay home and do nothing, the idea is that a UBI will supplement people's income, especially those on lower wages. Those people will then be able to spend more, which will push more money into and improve the economy.

It could be an expanded Earned Income Credit. I'd bet money that's how it actually comes about.

 

[RDKirk]

Another issue besides automation is the upward push of the intelligence level required to do many jobs. Twenty percent of people are below the IQ level that even the military will accept. These people need jobs that are non-technical and repetitive, easily learned and seldom varying, and those types of jobs are going away. And as time passes, the level of IQ for jobs continually rises.

Both parties ignore them. The Right thinks they're just not working hard enough, the Left thinks they've just been discriminated against. But the fact is that they can't do the work that's left for them to do, and as I said, as time passes more and more people will fall into that category.

Low-end service jobs that we might think can't be automated are not safe from the future. Those that can be automated will be automated, and we'll find the remaining service jobs becoming more and more complex in their requirements.

Much of Starbucks operation, for instance, will be automated, and what's left will be the people smart enough to run the machines.

Or, it won't be automated, but the cost of keeping smart and personable baristas (which is not a low-level occupation...waiters in high-end restaurants are not dumb people) will rise to the point that only wealthy people will be able to patronize restaurants that offer real human service.

 

[rjs330]

The only reason you’re not involved in drunken debauchery, drugs or crime is because you have to show up for work?

Idle hands are the devil's workshop?

 

[Pommer]

Hey, there is lots of praying going on up there. With the world the way it is now, the saints in Heaven are on triple overtime.

There are no “surprises” in Heaven.
Whatever happens, it will have always been that it happens, therefore they’ve be “prepared” for any eventuality, (that is a perk of living outside of time); hence, “no surprises”.

 

[Pommer]

Idle hands are the devil's workshop?

Just think if Edison would have only stuck it out as a telegrapher!

 

[rjs330]

Another issue besides automation is the upward push of the intelligence level required to do many jobs. Twenty percent of people are below the IQ level that even the military will accept. These people need jobs that are non-technical and repetitive, easily learned and seldom varying, and those types of jobs are going away. And as time passes, the level of IQ for jobs continually rises.

Both parties ignore them. The Right thinks they're just not working hard enough, the Left thinks they've just been discriminated against. But the fact is that they can't do the work that's left for them to do, and as I said, as time passes more and more people will fall into that category.

Low-end service jobs that we might think can't be automated are not safe from the future. Those that can be automated will be automated, and we'll find the remaining service jobs becoming more and more complex in their requirements.

Much of Starbucks operation, for instance, will be automated, and what's left will be the people smart enough to run the machines.

Or, it won't be automated, but the cost of keeping smart and personable baristas (which is not a low-level occupation...waiters in high-end restaurants are not dumb people) will rise to the point that only wealthy people will be able to patronize restaurants that offer real human service.

We also can't get away from the idea that automation can also come from the demand for higher and higher wages and benefits. Automation becomes a cheaper alternative.

Right now many if not most of those service jobs still are not automated and probably won't be for some time. But I can see them becoming so as the years progress.

But we find as history has shown us we do develope. We can't concieve of things now, but as automation grows other jobs will become available. Jobs we may not even think of right now.

 

[Desk trauma]

Idle hands are the devil's workshop?

I know people who manage all of that while working 80 hours a week.

 

[Pommer]

I know people who manage all of that while working 80 hours a week.

Multitasking is of the Devil

 

[rjs330]

Just think if Edison would have only stuck it out as a telegrapher!

I wasn't aware that Edison's hands were idle. I think he was a successful businessman.

 

[RDKirk]

We also can't get away from the idea that automation can also come from the demand for higher and higher wages and benefits. Automation becomes a cheaper alternative.

Sorry, but that's not how it works. That's not how it's ever worked. A worker is not going to save his job by living with a low wage. Automation comes to replace any wage as soon as it become cheaper.

But we find as history has shown us we do develope. We can't concieve of things now, but as automation grows other jobs will become available. Jobs we may not even think of right now.

And those jobs will A. Require fewer people to maintain, B. Require more intelligent people.

Automation never, ever produces more jobs for more people.

 

[rjs330]

Sorry, but that's not how it works. That's not how it's ever worked. A worker is not going to save his job by living with a low wage. Automation comes to replace any wage as soon as it become cheaper.



And those jobs will A. Require fewer people to maintain, B. Require more intelligent people.

Automation never, ever produces more jobs for more people.

Sure they do. As society and my echanization grows so do other kinds of jobs. Remember when buggy's were do continued? Car manufacturing became automated, but other jobs opened up.

Now in society we have MORE jobs than people willing to work them. We aren't having fewer and fewer jobs with more and more people out of work because all their jobs are being automated.

As we grow technically we will produce other jobs.

We are in really no danger of everyone or at least a large percentage of people out of work with no where to go.

It's just fear creation.

UBI has never worked. It's been tried.

The Real Cost of Universal Basic Income | Gonzalo Schwarz

Universal Basic Income Has Been Tried Before. It Didn’t Work. | Vijay Menon

Throughout history we have never had a net loss of jobs because of automation. More jobs have been created. There is no real reason to believe it will happen in the future.

Will Automation Cause an Increase in the Unemployment Rate?

 

[actionsub]

This one will get me in alot of trouble with posters to this forum but I am dumbfounded as to why anybody is pushing for Universal Basic Income. Is this where capitalism is taking us?
The YouTube video I provided I found informative and interesting BUT I have no idea whether this lady is a decent person to take advice from. Also, sorry about her scantly dress, she usually dresses more conservatively.

I checked out this person's You Tube account. She's in Iceland...