Why are we creating less jobs for people and not more? Universal Basic Income?

[Astrid]

But there is the rub. It’s not that the are losing money and going out of business it that they are making less money (while still turning significant profit).

But at the shareholders meetings when profits are down the CEOs need to reassure stakeholders that profits will continue to increase (not just maintain a level of profit but to be continually increase the rate of profit).

So the corner cutting, wage freezes and layoff happen. Corporate social responsibility have been over run by the moral case to maximise profits.

Profit > people in late stage capitalism.

Overgeneralizing and unwarranted conclusions.

Corporations are formed to benefit the stakeholders.

I've no interest in having my investment prop up
unproductive workers. If you have money for that,
you do it.

Corporations have a responsibility to obey the law,
not to provide welfare.
The CEO and BOD have a fiduciary duty to
stakeholders.

 

[Larniavc]

Corporations have a responsibility to obey the law,
not to provide welfare.
The CEO and BOD have a fiduciary duty to
stakeholders.

These two things (and the relative accuracy of them being carried out) is why we have late stage capitalism where people are only valued as much as their ability to provide use to the moneyed class.

 

[rjs330]

That so wrong as to be farcical. Every new technological advancement means less physical labor is needed for the task it is applied to.




That are vastly out numbered by the ones made redundant and require higher levels of skill to preform. Hence the issue of what is to be done for those displaced.

All this is nothing more than scare mongering. Something humans have been doing forever. Better technology whips up hysteria among people who can't imagine what anyone will do for work. What will all the horse and buggy makers do? They don't have skills to make cars. Oh my technology is taking over farming. What will all those poor farm workers do?

Yet society marches on with new skills developed. Higher standards of living. Education changes to train young people for the jobs of tomorrow. Often without the kids even realizing it.

There has always been the low IQ people. But sometimes those low IQ people are really good at something and have skills that the high IQ people don't have.

Look how far we've come from 200 years ago. And we live in a society today with a much higher standard of living and more jobs than workers to fill them.

The Obama administration presented these concerns in a report back in 2016.

There is an 83% chance that workers who earn $20 an hour or less could have their jobs replaced by robots in the next five years. Those in the $40 an hour pay range face a 31% chance of having their jobs taken over by the machines.” - Report from President Obama's Whitehouse to Congress

Well it's 2022 and this hasn't even come close to happening. I remember the big McDonalds scare of automated ordering. Guess what, McDonald is paying much higher wages and is still short workers.

As jobs change so does society. It grows and changes with it. With the invention of digital photography many of the developers jobs went away. But there was a growth in photography jobs. The intention of the spread sheet and computers didn't get rid of accountants it just changed their jobs and how they did it.

Yes older people might have trouble adapting, but they always have. Younger generations keep coming and growing up in a technologically changing world.

No we are not headed for a doom and gloom area of mass unemployment. History has shown us that. What we have is change and change is inevitable.

Besides we are all going to die and starve to death soon as climate change destroys us all.

 

[Hvizsgyak]

UBI will make the average voter beholden to federal government for everything.

That is exactly what I thought too and the first video alludes to.

 

[Hvizsgyak]

But they do increase each generation.

You're joking, right? You need to come to the US and sit in a couple of high school class rooms.

 

[rjs330]

These two things (and the relative accuracy of them being carried out) is why we have late stage capitalism where people are only valued as much as their ability to provide use to the moneyed class.

You realize you've just hit on the problem with socialism right?

 

[Hvizsgyak]

After reading alot of these responses, I have come to the conclusion that our government, our US corporations and many fellow Christians are really misleading people in this country. As Christians, we are to love our neighbor and help them (or at least be by their side) if they have a problems. But what I see in those who support corporations fully is "the corporations come first, workers do what you're told and be thankful you have a job". Corporations should exist for people not people exist for corporations. By making corporations supreme (and their CEOs the High Priests of all in the corporation) we are creating "false gods". People need to STOP thinking like corporations are a living breathing creature. They are a place that creates thinks for PEOPLE; they are a service. They should treat their customers with dignity and respect AND treat their workers with even more dignity and respect because their workers are helping the CEO create the product or service. Workers are peons (I mean no disrespect to any Spanish migrant workers). Workers are human being who have families they need to support (by making a good income) but also want to spend good quality time with their families (while they are alive and able). So again, stop putting corporations first.

Also, STOP with making corporations slot machines where anybody can make a profit from their success. This is TRULY what is screwing up our society. Oh, this stock is soaring; I going to invest in it to make money. If a corporation is good support it by buying their product or using it's service - nothing more! That's all people think about - how are my investments doing (and yes, I'm just as guilty as the rest but unfortunately our society has forced many people to do this action)? I know some of you are going to say, some of our best companies would have never got offthe ground had it not been for people investing in the company. It may have started out as a good way to get ideas off the ground but as usual it has become pervert by the wrong people.

I could go on and on but this is starting to become a very disheartening subject because so many peoples minds are going in the wrong direction from God.

 

[Hvizsgyak]

No because the society we have had provided for the best economies and opportunities for everyone. There is no better economic system and never has been anywhere in the world.

What economic system has there been that has proven better?

I can think of one which hasn't been used (or tried) but is a win-win for everyone. I have explained it either on this forum or the Catholic Answers Forum. Most people rejected it because they couldn't wrap their mind around but it would make corporations create products and/or services, create good jobs for all people who want to work (at their own time and pace), great wages for all (because it would be based on how much one wants to work), the government gets their cut in taxes and corporations will save enough money to reinvest in their companies.

Capitalism is not the best economic system; it is only the better of the three main ones (capitalism, communism, and socialism). In today's day and age, we can come up with something way, way better. We just need to want to do it and not stay with the status quo of mediocrity.

 

[rjs330]

After reading alot of these responses, I have come to the conclusion that our government, our US corporations and many fellow Christians are really misleading people in this country. As Christians, we are to love our neighbor and help them (or at least be by their side) if they have a problems. But what I see in those who support corporations fully is "the corporations come first, workers do what you're told and be thankful you have a job". Corporations should exist for people not people exist for corporations. By making corporations supreme (and their CEOs the High Priests of all in the corporation) we are creating "false gods". People need to STOP thinking like corporations are a living breathing creature. They are a place that creates thinks for PEOPLE; they are a service. They should treat their customers with dignity and respect AND treat their workers with even more dignity and respect because their workers are helping the CEO create the product or service. Workers are peons (I mean no disrespect to any Spanish migrant workers). Workers are human being who have families they need to support (by making a good income) but also want to spend good quality time with their families (while they are alive and able). So again, stop putting corporations first.

Also, STOP with making corporations slot machines where anybody can make a profit from their success. This is TRULY what is screwing up our society. Oh, this stock is soaring; I going to invest in it to make money. If a corporation is good support it by buying their product or using it's service - nothing more! That's all people think about - how are my investments doing (and yes, I'm just as guilty as the rest but unfortunately our society has forced many people to do this action)? I know some of you are going to say, some of our best companies would have never got offthe ground had it not been for people investing in the company. It may have started out as a good way to get ideas off the ground but as usual it has become pervert by the wrong people.

I could go on and on but this is starting to become a very disheartening subject because so many peoples minds are going in the wrong direction from God.

One thing that disheartens me is the continuation of demonizing corporations. Corporations are run by people. And corporations need employees and customers. Corporations do not treat people like dirt. People treat people like dirt. By and large corporations treat their people pretty well and depending on the company and the business they are in pay differs. Skills differ. Talant differs. Someone working selling cigarettes in a convenience store is not the same as someone working repairing computer programming. If one makes more than the other it's not because the company is screwing them over.

Remember the parable of the talents? God does not create everyone or treat everyone equally. What he expects is for us to do our best with what we have been given.

There is a TON of research out there that proves managers of people are being taught and educated on how to be good leaders. And little of it had to do with money.

You are correct in that how we treat people matters. But treating them well has little to do with money but has to do with value, inspiration, trust vision and mission. Which mimicks how Jesus treated his disciples.

Corporations are not evil. Some people treat their people like garbage, but that's not typical of every place and certainly most of the most successful businesses do things that is good for the people because it's good for the business.

 

[rjs330]

I can think of one which hasn't been used (or tried) but is a win-win for everyone. I have explained it either on this forum or the Catholic Answers Forum. Most people rejected it because they couldn't wrap their mind around but it would make corporations create products and/or services, create good jobs for all people who want to work (at their own time and pace), great wages for all (because it would be based on how much one wants to work), the government gets their cut in taxes and corporations will save enough money to reinvest in their companies.

Capitalism is not the best economic system; it is only the better of the three main ones (capitalism, communism, and socialism). In today's day and age, we can come up with something way, way better. We just need to want to do it and not stay with the status quo of mediocrity.

I don't think we are in mediocrity. But I do agree we could do better. We have far too much cronie capitalism. Government driving business and business getting into bed with government.

That's a HUGE problem.

 

[Larniavc]

You ever take a business course?

Yeah, but I had to give it back.

 

[IceJad]

Human intelligence levels do not increase with technological levels, though. Not everyone can be a computer programmer. When all jobs require the intelligence level of a computer programmer, there will be a large portion of people who simply don't have the intellectual capacity to do those jobs.

That truth is in effect even today. The US military contains nearly every job available in US civilian society, but has a low limit of 83 IQ because a person below that point cannot be trained to do any military job. That's essentially the lowest IQ that can be trained into any US job. Yet, that includes 15% of the population.

Those new jobs exclude Forrest Gump. In not too long, they'll exclude Gomer Pyle, and then Barney Fife, and in not too much longer, even Sheriff Andy.

Programmers and system engineers are the direct jobs that will open up. However there will be many more secondary jobs that will be created as support to IT. My prediction is jobs which have low level of entry will remain. It is the mid-tier jobs that are neither too technical nor too simplistic that get replaced by AI & automation.

We use AI and automation for jobs with the potential to achieve 2 goals: improve productivity & reduce expenditures. You're not buying million dollar janitor androids from Boston Dynamic (not that it exist yet) to clean say your work premises. Nor will you invest millions to renovate your work premises to be easier to clean. You hire or outsource to people who do it for cheap.

But you will invest millions for an AI system to replace insurance adjusters, factory workers and call center because in 2-3 years you will save the same amount of cost and get at least the same amount of outputs.

In fact Forrest Gump might find it easier to get a job than say the average Joe & Jane. He will not need to compete with automation.

 

[Astrid]

Yeah, but I had to give it back.

There's correct elements in what you
say about corporations but it's kind of a
narrow slice of the pie.
But I spect you know that.

 

[Larniavc]

But I spect you know that.

Yeah.

 

[Astrid]

Yeah.

Rats. Nothing left to argue about.

 

[Astrid]

After reading alot of these responses, I have come to the conclusion that our government, our US corporations and many fellow Christians are really misleading people in this country. As Christians, we are to love our neighbor and help them (or at least be by their side) if they have a problems. But what I see in those who support corporations fully is "the corporations come first, workers do what you're told and be thankful you have a job". Corporations should exist for people not people exist for corporations. By making corporations supreme (and their CEOs the High Priests of all in the corporation) we are creating "false gods". People need to STOP thinking like corporations are a living breathing creature. They are a place that creates thinks for PEOPLE; they are a service. They should treat their customers with dignity and respect AND treat their workers with even more dignity and respect because their workers are helping the CEO create the product or service. Workers are peons (I mean no disrespect to any Spanish migrant workers). Workers are human being who have families they need to support (by making a good income) but also want to spend good quality time with their families (while they are alive and able). So again, stop putting corporations first.

Also, STOP with making corporations slot machines where anybody can make a profit from their success. This is TRULY what is screwing up our society. Oh, this stock is soaring; I going to invest in it to make money. If a corporation is good support it by buying their product or using it's service - nothing more! That's all people think about - how are my investments doing (and yes, I'm just as guilty as the rest but unfortunately our society has forced many people to do this action)? I know some of you are going to say, some of our best companies would have never got offthe ground had it not been for people investing in the company. It may have started out as a good way to get ideas off the ground but as usual it has become pervert by the wrong people.

I could go on and on but this is starting to become a very disheartening subject because so many peoples minds are going in the wrong direction from God.

Starting with "support fully" you go on to
savage a lot of strawmen.
I don't believe there are any such as you
describe.

 

[Hvizsgyak]

We use AI and automation for jobs with the potential to achieve 2 goals: improve productivity & reduce expenditures. You're not buying million dollar janitor androids from Boston Dynamic (not that it exist yet) to clean say your work premises. Nor will you invest millions to renovate your work premises to be easier to clean. You hire or outsource to people who do it for cheap.

And here is where capitalism fails "hire or outsource to people who do it for cheap"! I was a computer programmer for a contracting firm that dealt with US government contracts. As you know the government awards contracts to companies to do much of their hardware setup and software programming. Watching these bidding contracts reminded me of the game show "Name That Tune". Juxtapose "I can name that tune in three notes" for "I can do that contract better in (say) one month". Yes the government looks at the tract record of the company with the lowest bid and usually goes with that company (to save tax payers money). But everyone knows that the bid is unrealistic (especially those working for the company who put forth the bid). In the end, they either renegotiate the bid to get some more workers in involved to get the job done or they start missing deadlines. Money ends up being wasted and then paid for by the taxpayers.

This going for "the cheapest way to do something" attitude is ridiculous. I would rather have 10 people doing a job (and not overwhelming them with work) than 2 people beating their heads against the wall trying to get a job done (and possible cutting corners to finish). In a capitalistic society that sounds crazy but in a fair society workers are happier (companionship). I know, I know your argument "but they get more accomplished working by themselves". We worry to much about how much work is getting done in a certain time frame. Live and let live. Oh well, I'm sure I'm going to get an earful. God bless all of you, I'm sure you mean well. Just as you may know I mean well too.

 

[Astrid]

And here is where capitalism fails "hire or outsource to people who do it for cheap"! I was a computer programmer for a contracting firm that dealt with US government contracts. As you know the government awards contracts to companies to do much of their hardware setup and software programming. Watching these bidding contracts reminded me of the game show "Name That Tune". Juxtapose "I can name that tune in three notes" for "I can do that contract better in (say) one month". Yes the government looks at the tract record of the company with the lowest bid and usually goes with that company (to save tax payers money). But everyone knows that the bid is unrealistic (especially those working for the company who put forth the bid). In the end, they either renegotiate the bid to get some more workers in involved to get the job done or they start missing deadlines. Money ends up being wasted and then paid for by the taxpayers.

This going for "the cheapest way to do something" attitude is ridiculous. I would rather have 10 people doing a job (and not overwhelming them with work) than 2 people beating their heads against the wall trying to get a job done (and possible cutting corners to finish). In a capitalistic society that sounds crazy but in a fair society workers are happier (companionship). I know, I know your argument "but they get more accomplished working by themselves". We worry to much about how much work is getting done in a certain time frame. Live and let live. Oh well, I'm sure I'm going to get an earful. God bless all of you, I'm sure you mean well. Just as you may know I mean well too.

Corporations don't operate like a govt.
If they did they'd all be bankrupt.

 

[IceJad]

And here is where capitalism fails "hire or outsource to people who do it for cheap"! I was a computer programmer for a contracting firm that dealt with US government contracts. As you know the government awards contracts to companies to do much of their hardware setup and software programming. Watching these bidding contracts reminded me of the game show "Name That Tune". Juxtapose "I can name that tune in three notes" for "I can do that contract better in (say) one month". Yes the government looks at the tract record of the company with the lowest bid and usually goes with that company (to save tax payers money). But everyone knows that the bid is unrealistic (especially those working for the company who put forth the bid). In the end, they either renegotiate the bid to get some more workers in involved to get the job done or they start missing deadlines. Money ends up being wasted and then paid for by the taxpayers.

I work in IT too as a Pre-sales consultant. On top of doing to the initial requirements gathering I also do solutioning designs. I can understand the bidding garbage that goes on in a tender. The team that does sales will not take into consideration of the delivery team. It is not so much a problem with capitalism but rather corporate culture. I know of companies that walked away from unrealistic competition only to be awarded the project when the winning bidder failed in delivery. By then the customer would have already wasted more money than awarding it to the better company from the start.

This going for "the cheapest way to do something" attitude is ridiculous. I would rather have 10 people doing a job (and not overwhelming them with work) than 2 people beating their heads against the wall trying to get a job done (and possible cutting corners to finish). In a capitalistic society that sounds crazy but in a fair society workers are happier (companionship). I know, I know your argument "but they get more accomplished working by themselves". We worry to much about how much work is getting done in a certain time frame. Live and let live. Oh well, I'm sure I'm going to get an earful. God bless all of you, I'm sure you mean well. Just as you may know I mean well too.

Sometimes it is just not feasible to always have project with good margins. It really depends on the economy. Even if you wanted a team of 10, the customer might not be able to afford it. In a climate where projects are hard to come by, companies might weigh cutting corners and over promising to stay afloat. Yes it is not ideal but without the project I might not have a job at all. Besides being a pre-sales I sometimes take on the role of project manager when projects are on a tight cost. I wish I have a proper team size but reality is we can't for budgetary reasons. I'm a PM who coordinate the working level, prepare documents, talk to the higher management and sometimes even technical delivery. Much more than a PM should be doing.

Life is never ideal is what I learned early.

 

[IceJad]

That so wrong as to be farcical. Every new technological advancement means less physical labor is needed for the task it is applied to.

That is not exactly correct. Every new technology advancements mean that a whole new slew of jobs will open up to support that technology. Obsolete jobs will die off, yes. Technology is not a magic bullet. The reason why you feel the lack of new jobs with new technology is because corporate America has been sending the jobs to support the new tech to other nations.

You can automate an automobile production line and get rid of 50% of factory floor workers. But there are many more robotic, AI programmers and general supports that are hired to ensure the automation runs smoothly. And theses are the jobs not going back to America.

That are vastly out numbered by the ones made redundant and require higher levels of skill to preform. Hence the issue of what is to be done for those displaced.

If automation and AI are such big game changers why are corporate America still offshoring and outsourcing to poorer nations? Why can that automation and AI replace the offshoring and outsourcing altogether? Or why are the outsourced nation not implementing the same AI and automation to replace their workers?

Take for instance Tesla's giga factory in China. It is advanced and highly automated. But it still hires many people to run the place. And many are not as highly educated as the average American. Why can't the factory be built in America and hire Americans? Automation & AI didn't reduce jobs in China. In fact they increased the number of jobs.

If corporate America bring all production & services back to America you will have surplus in jobs. Of course then you will have to pay more for your products and services. And in the process destroys international trade.