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But on the rest John stuff so you are saying that Gods desire is in conflict with his will?
Thanks, I updated my answer with some thoughts.Here's an academic link:
Universalism: A historical survey
I think that the God who created this world who sees all things before they happen ( he makes them happen) and who has said that Jesus was crucified before the foundation’s of the earth, could he not have a plan and is he not capable of having both his desire and will be done?
He will get what he desires and his desire is not in conflict with his will God 100% satan 0% that’s the only way you can truly say God wins anything else and God can not be as 1Cor 15 says God will be all in all. So if you want to call it desires or will I don’t care I see no conflict between them.
Well we will have to agree to disagree on the might part. But on the rest John stuff so you are saying that Gods desire is in conflict with his will? What does that say about God? I think that the God who created this world who sees all things before they happen ( he makes them happen) and who has said that Jesus was crucified before the foundation’s of the earth, could he not have a plan and is he not capable of having both his desire and will be done? The only way to have his desire and will not be both the same and what he will do, is to make him out to be like the old Greek gods who were weak, fickle, angry, jealous, persuadable ect. I do not see God in that way He will get what he desires and his desire is not in conflict with his will God 100% satan 0% that’s the only way you can truly say God wins anything else and God can not be as 1Cor 15 says God will be all in all. So if you want to call it desires or will I don’t care I see no conflict between them.
The way I would interpret that to be consistent with what I believe the Bible teaches is that the sentence of the offender is permanent that those sins that committed can never be reversed. But that doesn’t mean that the punishment is eternal torture. I know that most in today’s church equates the sentence and punishment to be the same but I think it is entirely plausible to separate out the sentence from the punishment. That is why we can believe that God will pursue every one till he wins them over(kind of like the 99 and 1 sheep thing). So the sentence given is eternal it can’t be changed but the punishment is to correction and is of a limited duration. This to me is more consistent with what I read in the Bible.
What was Gods desire when he created the world, was it not for him to have a creation that would willingly follow and love him out of a free will ? If so why is it so hard to believe that he could not bring this about , unless you think sin is stronger than God . He knew full well that the only way he could have his desire is to let all of creation to experience what life would be like if we did not do things Gods way. That’s why the choice given to Adam was to eat of the tree of life and never know evil or eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and see the result of us now dealing with evil, God knew what they would choose but it had to be a real choice for his desire to come about. That is why scripture tells us Christ was crucified before the foundation of the earth, that has been Gods plan all along. He will restore all things , the early church called it Apokatastasis. I don’t understand why we look at God who is someone who created the world which he loved and a power came in and messed up his desire and now he doesn’t get what he desires but will have to settle with a small fraction of what he wants, this makes out God to be weaker than satan and I don’t think he is. So yes this whole journey we are on is so God will get what he desires at the end . 1Cor 15 when it’s all finished and Jesus conquered death and hands everything over to the Father and God will be all in all God wins . God 100% satan 0% . You act as if God is not greater than satan and that God did not know what was going to happen, nothing takes God by surprise if it did He would not be God. So did God desire for all the things that you stated yes because it played into the long game the very thing even the angels long to look into. I can see no other scenario that doesn’t make God weak or just reacting to what satan has done as if satan is a threat to him.Did God desire for Adam & Eve to eat the forbidden fruit? Did God desire for man to become so evil that He had to destroy them in the flood? Did God desire the Israelites to make a golden calf? Did God desire man to constantly sin against Him since man was first created? God has been constantly disappointed by man so no, God doesn’t get what He desires from man that has been constantly proven throughout the scriptures.
Thanks, I updated my answer with some thoughts.
Except all the verses that say it is Gods willYour assuming it is His will (plan) that everyone be saved but nowhere in the scriptures does it actually say that.
1 Timothy 2Your assuming it is His will (plan) that everyone be saved but nowhere in the scriptures does it actually say that.
Yes they are Bible facts what I am saying is maybe in our western mindset we don’t see what the eastern mindset would see in there understanding when it was given them. To us we read they were burned up as being a final judgement but to them not so. The idea that something is eternal till it ends makes total sense to them , so we must read it from there perspective. We need to get into the head of the second temple Jew and look at scripture the way they would have understood it. Otherwise we make it out to be what it is not. So for me I look at these and other verses through the lens of Its Gods will that none parish/ Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess/,Jesus is the savior of the world/ Jesus loses none, and I see a different story than you who look at eternal punishment as the lens and try to fit all the other verses into that. It comes down to what we believe about God is he a loving God who wants to redeem all his creation or is he a angry, jealous God whose creation is messed up and he is trying to same at least some of it. It really comes down to what lens we are going to read through.You didn’t address any of the scriptures I provided to prove my point. John 15:2 John 15:6 or Luke 13:6-9. These are biblical facts not assumptions based on personal preference or opinion. I’m quoting scripture and your quoting your personal feelings on the matter.
I guess when people think of God, they are expecting some sort of divine overcontrol that allows the expression of freewill and genuine worship - whilst precluding "neverending torment without the possibility of ascension or choice of annihilation?".I agree with everything you said, in particular about what kind of heaven a god who sends people to an eternal hell could possibly offer. I wouldn't spend the time to have a pint with such a being let alone want to spend an eternity with him.
I guess when people think of God, they are expecting some sort of divine overcontrol that allows the expression of freewill and genuine worship - whilst precluding "neverending torment without the possibility of ascension or choice of annihilation?".
Yes I think something similar.Yes, I think we all want to get back to the Garden of Eden and, as I understand Christianity, that's what God wants too, and the resurrection of Jesus was the start of His project to achieve this by creating the new heaven and new earth.
That judgment is reserved for God alone. I am not passing judgment on anyone, only God knows their hearts. I am not saying I know anyone minds. That's not up to me to decide.I can see it now. Old Bob's a'dying, and he says to himself, "I'm about to snuff it, and I need to decide where I want to go. I can either: A) choose God and live forever in unlimited happiness, or B) flip God off and be mercilessly tortured 24/7 for all eternity. I reckon I'll go with B.
Zat about right?
One of my great granddads on my mom's side was yangban, Korean petty nobility. According to what I was told by my grandmother he was a good man, and generally well regarded by everyone. Honest, open-handed with those in need, always on hand when a neighbor needed help, loyal husband and father. But he had no religion at all to speak of. His observation was that the gods always seemed to favor those who worked the hardest, or those with the most money. When my grandmother became a Christian, he was disappointed because she had embraced some silly foreign religion. He was, in short, a prime example of the righteous pagan.
So at what point do you reckon he knowingly choose to accept eternal torment? I maintain that he did no such thing, since he thought the whole idea was part of some foreign mythology that he cared nothing about.
#2. Perhaps but they cooperated.Unless God decides that Satan will change, in which case old Nick will change whether he wants to or not.
You might ask Jonah, or Balaam, or Pharoah, or St Paul, or a number of other folks in the Bible about that. God got pretty doggone forceful with all of
them , didn't He?
agreed! I agree completelyDid they? Some may, but many of my deceased loved ones were brought up, as I was, to believe that we are all going to Heaven (except a few very wicked people). My only consolation is that God knows the hearts of people and can somehow bring them to a point of decision about salvation which may be unknown to me.
What was Gods desire when he created the world, was it not for him to have a creation that would willingly follow and love him out of a free will ? If so why is it so hard to believe that he could not bring this about , unless you think sin is stronger than God . He knew full well that the only way he could have his desire is to let all of creation to experience what life would be like if we did not do things Gods way. That’s why the choice given to Adam was to eat of the tree of life and never know evil or eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and see the result of us now dealing with evil, God knew what they would choose but it had to be a real choice for his desire to come about. That is why scripture tells us Christ was crucified before the foundation of the earth, that has been Gods plan all along. He will restore all things , the early church called it Apokatastasis. I don’t understand why we look at God who is someone who created the world which he loved and a power came in and messed up his desire and now he doesn’t get what he desires but will have to settle with a small fraction of what he wants, this makes out God to be weaker than satan and I don’t think he is. So yes this whole journey we are on is so God will get what he desires at the end . 1Cor 15 when it’s all finished and Jesus conquered death and hands everything over to the Father and God will be all in all God wins . God 100% satan 0% . You act as if God is not greater than satan and that God did not know what was going to happen, nothing takes God by surprise if it did He would not be God. So did God desire for all the things that you stated yes because it played into the long game the very thing even the angels long to look into. I can see no other scenario that doesn’t make God weak or just reacting to what satan has done as if satan is a threat to him.
Perhaps they will. I do not know how that side of eternity works out, I'm only a fallible human beingThe question is did they re
a know what they were doing or had sin so corrupted there thinking that they did not make a rational choice? Would they make that same choice if the sin were burned away and they could see the love of God for real? We can not speak for anyone but ourselves it’s always easy to look at others, but God said man looks at the outside He looks at the heart.
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