Why are threads on Christian universalism so popular?

Jeff Saunders · May 10, 2022

RileyG said:
Pride. Those with pride won’t change. Satan is incapable of change.

God never forces himself on anyone.

We’re in scripture does it say satan is incapable of changing or is Gods love not powerful enough to even win over satan? I know for most the idea that satan can be won over is a hard pill to swallow, but think about it is it a greater victory for God to win over part of His creation or to burn it forever? To me to win one’s enemy over with your love seems to be the whole story of the Bible. Remember it says we were once enemies of God yet he win’s us with his love not with the sword.

Hmm · May 10, 2022

RileyG said:
Pride. Those with pride won’t change. Satan is incapable of change.

God never forces himself on anyone.

Three questions... Have you ever experienced pride? If you have, did the sense pass or do you still feel it now? If it passed, why do you say that those with pride don't change?

Jeff Saunders · May 10, 2022

BNR32FAN said:
I think the scriptures saying that God might have mercy on all isn’t as conclusive as Christ saying not everyone will enter heaven. Your comparing a verse that says what God might do to a verse that says what He will do and choosing the one that more suits your personal preference. You can’t ignore verses that say what God will do and base doctrines on what they say He might do.

As for John 3:38-39 it does not say that Jesus will lose none. That’s not what the verse says.

“This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.””
‭‭John‬ ‭6:39-40‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The word translated to “will” can also mean “desire” so that’s just as inconclusive as every verse pertaining to eternal punishment based on the same argument that aionios can mean for an age. It’s no secret that God desires all men to be saved and come to the full knowledge of truth but that doesn’t necessarily mean that it will happen. God didn’t desire for man to be sinful either but He knew it would happen just the same. That’s just part of what you have to expect when people are given free will. So if your going to argue that verses containing the word aionios can’t conclusively be proven to refer to something eternal then by that same logic you must also hold to that same logic on the verses containing the word thelema that can either mean something God has declared to be true or something that God desires.

I don’t think it’s hard at all to imagine that Jesus will lose most of what He paid for because that was the plan from the beginning. The whole point of Him dying for everyone was so that no one had any excuses on judgement day. Everyone has equal opportunity and they are solely responsible for their fate.

Might does not mean he might or might not it’s more like so he can , it’s not that he might not that would make no sense in this verse.On the John 3 :38-39 what part of lose none do you not get? None means none not part or some or most but none . Scripture is clear that all things were given to Jesus so how can it be any plainer?

RileyG · May 10, 2022

Hmm said:
Three questions... Have you ever experienced pride? If you have, did the sense pass or do you still feel it now? If it passed, why do you say that those with pride don't change?

Yes. But the dead made their eternal choice. They rejected God once and for all. They knew what they were doing.

Jeff Saunders · May 10, 2022

The question is did they re

RileyG said:
Yes. But the dead made their eternal choice. They rejected God once and for all. They knew what they were doing.

a know what they were doing or had sin so corrupted there thinking that they did not make a rational choice? Would they make that same choice if the sin were burned away and they could see the love of God for real? We can not speak for anyone but ourselves it’s always easy to look at others, but God said man looks at the outside He looks at the heart.

rebornfree · May 10, 2022

Hmm said:
It's an awful dilemma to be in. What helped me was reading about "kolasis anonios" and realising that the most popular English translations of the Bible simply got everything about eternal punishment wrong, however incredible that sounds. Why don't the Bibles correct this? Just look at the attachment to ECT we see here. They wouldn't want the plummet in sales.

Thank you for your understanding and prayer. It is sad and I'm sorry that you have felt it too.

I googled "kolasis anonios" and found a book on Amazon which I looked at briefly. It does seem incredible that most English translations would get their teaching about eternal punishment wrong though. I tend to use, and trust, the NIV and need to have another look at the scriptures regarding eternity. I do not understanding people wanting ECT to be true, but I'm not yet convinced that it isn't.

A few things about deceased loved ones though which help a bit. I still hope that there may have been death bed conversions. I believe my Dad did. I heard Robert Morris (I think it was him) say that those who have just not bothered about God would not suffer as much as the really evil and someone on CF pointed out that the gate to hell is locked on the inside. IOW they are locking themselves in rather than God is locking them out. I still hope UR, or even annihilation, is true but I know I must be Biblical so I'm not yet sure and, whichever is correct, want others to know the Lord.

Jeff Saunders · May 10, 2022

rebornfree said:
Thank you for your understanding and prayer. It is sad and I'm sorry that you have felt it too.

I googled "kolasis anonios" and found a book on Amazon which I looked at briefly. It does seem incredible that most English translations would get their teaching about eternal punishment wrong though. I tend to use, and trust, the NIV and need to have another look at the scriptures regarding eternity. I do not understanding people wanting ECT to be true, but I'm not yet convinced that it isn't.

A few things about deceased loved ones though which help a bit. I still hope that there may have been death bed conversions. I believe my Dad did. I heard Robert Morris (I think it was him) say that those who have just not bothered about God would not suffer as much as the really evil and someone on CF pointed out that the gate to hell is locked on the inside. IOW they are locking themselves in rather than God is locking them out. I still hope UR, or even annihilation, is true but I know I must be Biblical so I'm not yet sure and, whichever is correct, want others to know the Lord.

I use David Bentley Hart translation, it’s just the New Testament but he is considered one of the best Bible scholars of today . I also use Young’s translation but it is old English and for me kind of like KJV hard to understand.I often have to have a modern translation to look up what is being said.

rebornfree · May 10, 2022

RileyG said:
Yes. But the dead made their eternal choice. They rejected God once and for all. They knew what they were doing.

Did they? Some may, but many of my deceased loved ones were brought up, as I was, to believe that we are all going to Heaven (except a few very wicked people). My only consolation is that God knows the hearts of people and can somehow bring them to a point of decision about salvation which may be unknown to me.

Jipsah · May 10, 2022

RileyG said:
Satan is incapable of change.

Unless God decides that Satan will change, in which case old Nick will change whether he wants to or not.

God never forces himself on anyone.

You might ask Jonah, or Balaam, or Pharoah, or St Paul, or a number of other folks in the Bible about that. God got pretty doggone forceful with all of
them , didn't He?

Jipsah · May 10, 2022

RileyG said:
Yes. But the dead made their eternal choice. They rejected God once and for all. They knew what they were doing.

I can see it now. Old Bob's a'dying, and he says to himself, "I'm about to snuff it, and I need to decide where I want to go. I can either: A) choose God and live forever in unlimited happiness, or B) flip God off and be mercilessly tortured 24/7 for all eternity. I reckon I'll go with B.

Zat about right?

One of my great granddads on my mom's side was yangban, Korean petty nobility. According to what I was told by my grandmother he was a good man, and generally well regarded by everyone. Honest, open-handed with those in need, always on hand when a neighbor needed help, loyal husband and father. But he had no religion at all to speak of. His observation was that the gods always seemed to favor those who worked the hardest, or those with the most money. When my grandmother became a Christian, he was disappointed because she had embraced some silly foreign religion. He was, in short, a prime example of the righteous pagan.

So at what point do you reckon he knowingly choose to accept eternal torment? I maintain that he did no such thing, since he thought the whole idea was part of some foreign mythology that he cared nothing about.

Aussie Pete · May 11, 2022

Jeff Saunders said:
Yes it is a sign of the last days, God himself said he will pour out his spirit in the last days and that is exactly why the Christian Universal Redemption is becoming so popular. People are starting to wake up to the truth of the gospel (the good news for all ) It has been around from the beginning, most of the early church believers followed it they called it Apokatastasis. This was true for the first 300 years of the church. So yes it is being rekindled now as time is short . Because any of the other systems give more glory to satan than God, how can God have the glory if he loses most of his creation to satan and then he has to create hell and sustain it forever and he only gets a small fraction of what he paid for. I don’t understand how you can call that a win for God. But with UR God wins God 100% satan 0% (some even say satan himself will be conquered and finally bend his knee to Jesus) so yes you are correct it is a sigh of the last days

If UR is correct, no one needs to preach the gospel, no one needs to repent, the idea of the Kingdom of God is a joke and Jesus died in vain. The saints who gave their lives to Jesus died in vain. With UR, why would anyone want to be saved? You can live a wicked, sinful, selfish life and it won't matter a bit.

I've studied UR and I don't agree. I was baptised in the Holy Spirit in 1974. The Spirit has not told me that UR is correct. The opposite. I heard the testimony of a preacher who embraced UR. He said that he quit preaching God's judgement and hell for four years. In that time, no one was saved. He realised his error and started preaching the gospel again. People started getting saved again.

UR is nice, safe, comfortable and pleasant for Christians. It absolves them of responsibility if they fail to witness to the lost. The problem is that the lost stay lost if the gospel is not preached. Or do you ignore that part of the Bible?

If the church was flourishing, full of life, drawing people to Jesus and enforcing the victory of Christ, I would rethink my position. It's not. The golden times of the church have been when zealous men have preached the gospel of repentance to salvation. There are no UR churches because why would anyone bother to go? Stay home and watch TV or go to a game. It's getting to the point now where church is just a songfest with no teaching of any worth. This is the great apostasy that marks the last days. UR is one more symptom of that apostasy.

Hmm · May 11, 2022

rebornfree said:
It is sad and I'm sorry that you have felt it too

Thanks although it's not that I've ever felt it myself, because I've always seen ECT as incompatible with a loving God, but I know a couple of people who suffered a lot from the cognitive dissonance it puts you in if you really believe in it. It wasn't easy for them because ECT is a very pernicious belief and it's difficult to get free of it. If you start to question it, it automatically starts to make you feel at risk of hell just for doing that and so it's very hard to extricate yourself. I've read a number of testimonies of people who have managed to do just that and the path from ECT to Christian universalism is often achieved via a temporary stop at Annihilationism.

rebornfree said:
someone on CF pointed out that the gate to hell is locked on the inside. IOW they are locking themselves in rather than God is locking them out.

Nice image. I'd like to add to it and say that God is there with you in "hell" and He's constantly trying all He can do to break through to you and get you to open the door. He has all the time in the world and He is very resourceful so I believe He will eventually succeed in this with everyone.

rebornfree said:
I still hope UR, or even annihilation, is true but I know I must be Biblical so I'm not yet sure and, whichever is correct, want others to know the Lord.

I, too, can only believe in UR if I truly believed it was biblical. Having looked into it, and it didn't take very long, I can honestly say that I believe it is. Writers that helped me are Thomas Talbott, Keith DeRose, Brad Jersak and Robin Parry. The latter two also have quite a few videos on YouTube. Best of luck with your search.

Hmm · May 11, 2022

Aussie Pete said:
If UR is correct, no one needs to preach the gospel, no one needs to repent, the idea of the Kingdom of God is a joke and Jesus died in vain. The saints who gave their lives to Jesus died in vain. With UR, why would anyone want to be saved? You can live a wicked, sinful, selfish life and it won't matter a bit

Does that apply to you or just to everyone else? Would you go back to living a "wicked, sinful , selfish" life if you believed that everyone gets saved? That's not the sort of faith I would want.

BNR32FAN · May 11, 2022

Jeff Saunders said:
Might does not mean he might or might not it’s more like so he can , it’s not that he might not that would make no sense in this verse.On the John 3 :38-39 what part of lose none do you not get? None means none not part or some or most but none . Scripture is clear that all things were given to Jesus so how can it be any plainer?

I agree that might means so that He can my point was that it does not indicate that He will.

Your not being constant in your argument because if I point out Matthew 25:46 you’ll look to the definition of the Greek word aionios and say that it can mean for an age and you’d be correct but when I point out the Greek word thelema that is translated to “will” in John 6:38-39 you completely ignore the fact that it can also mean “desire”. It is the desire of The Father that He should lose none. It does not say “He shall lose none”. Theres a difference. There’s also a huge flaw in your interpretation of John 6:38-39 because if you say that Jesus will lose none then John 15:2 and John 15:6 become an impossibility. In John 15:2 The Father cuts off every branch IN CHRIST that beareth not fruit. John 15:6 says anyone who does not remain in Christ is cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned. Furthermore in Luke 13:6-9 Jesus’ message gives even more support for John 15:2 because notice how even despite Jesus’ efforts to save the tree the outcome is still uncertain whether or not it will bear fruit or if it will be chopped down. So evidently according to these verses Jesus will lose some that were given to Him by The Father because they cannot be “IN CHRIST” as Jesus stated in John 15:2 unless The Father has drawn them nor can they fail to remain in Christ if they were never joined to Him by The Father. That’s why the definition “desire” accurately fits the interpretation in John 6:38-39. It is The Father’s desire that Jesus should lose none because that interpretation doesn’t contradict other verses.

BNR32FAN · May 11, 2022

Aussie Pete said:
If UR is correct, no one needs to preach the gospel, no one needs to repent, the idea of the Kingdom of God is a joke and Jesus died in vain. The saints who gave their lives to Jesus died in vain. With UR, why would anyone want to be saved? You can live a wicked, sinful, selfish life and it won't matter a bit.

I've studied UR and I don't agree. I was baptised in the Holy Spirit in 1974. The Spirit has not told me that UR is correct. The opposite. I heard the testimony of a preacher who embraced UR. He said that he quit preaching God's judgement and hell for four years. In that time, no one was saved. He realised his error and started preaching the gospel again. People started getting saved again.

UR is nice, safe, comfortable and pleasant for Christians. It absolves them of responsibility if they fail to witness to the lost. The problem is that the lost stay lost if the gospel is not preached. Or do you ignore that part of the Bible?

If the church was flourishing, full of life, drawing people to Jesus and enforcing the victory of Christ, I would rethink my position. It's not. The golden times of the church have been when zealous men have preached the gospel of repentance to salvation. There are no UR churches because why would anyone bother to go? Stay home and watch TV or go to a game. It's getting to the point now where church is just a songfest with no teaching of any worth. This is the great apostasy that marks the last days. UR is one more symptom of that apostasy.

Exactly sounds very familiar to this verse

“The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die!”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

BNR32FAN · May 11, 2022

Hillsage said:
MAT 12:31-32 Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age/aion or in the age/aion to come.

So is it 'eternal' or is it for a couple of ages? Ages starting with the age Jesus spoke these words. But, over 60 years later Eph 2:7 confirms there are ages, plural yet to come, beyond the age that verse was written.

I specifically quoted Luke 12:10 because it answers the questions will it never be forgiven or not. Luke 12:10 simply says it will not be forgiven. So you have to interpret the parallel verses in Matthew and Mark to coincide with Luke. The way your interpreting it here your ignoring the parallel verse in Luke.

Jeff Saunders · May 11, 2022

BNR32FAN said:
I agree that might means so that He can my point was that it does not indicate that He will.

Your not being constant in your argument because if I point out Matthew 25:46 you’ll look to the definition of the Greek word aionios and say that it can mean for an age and you’d be correct but when I point out the Greek word thelema that is translated to “will” in John 6:38-39 you completely ignore the fact that it can also mean “desire”. It is the desire of The Father that He should lose none. It does not say “He shall lose none”. Theres a difference. There’s also a huge flaw in your interpretation of John 6:38-39 because if you say that Jesus will lose none then John 15:2 and John 15:6 become an impossibility. In John 15:2 The Father cuts off every branch IN CHRIST that beareth not fruit. John 15:6 says anyone who does not remain in Christ is cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned. Furthermore in Luke 13:6-9 Jesus’ message gives even more support for John 15:2 because notice how even despite Jesus’ efforts to save the tree the outcome is still uncertain whether or not it will bear fruit or if it will be chopped down. So evidently according to these verses Jesus will lose some that were given to Him by The Father because they cannot be “IN CHRIST” as Jesus stated in John 15:2 unless The Father has drawn them nor can they fail to remain in Christ if they were never joined to Him by The Father. That’s why the definition “desire” accurately fits the interpretation in John 6:38-39. It is The Father’s desire that Jesus should lose none because that interpretation doesn’t contradict other verses.

Well we will have to agree to disagree on the might part. But on the rest John stuff so you are saying that Gods desire is in conflict with his will? What does that say about God? I think that the God who created this world who sees all things before they happen ( he makes them happen) and who has said that Jesus was crucified before the foundation’s of the earth, could he not have a plan and is he not capable of having both his desire and will be done? The only way to have his desire and will not be both the same and what he will do, is to make him out to be like the old Greek gods who were weak, fickle, angry, jealous, persuadable ect. I do not see God in that way He will get what he desires and his desire is not in conflict with his will God 100% satan 0% that’s the only way you can truly say God wins anything else and God can not be as 1Cor 15 says God will be all in all. So if you want to call it desires or will I don’t care I see no conflict between them.

Jeff Saunders · May 11, 2022

BNR32FAN said:
I specifically quoted Luke 12:10 because it answers the questions will it never be forgiven or not. Luke 12:10 simply says it will not be forgiven. So you have to interpret the parallel verses in Matthew and Mark to coincide with Luke. The way your interpreting it here your ignoring the parallel verse in Luke.

The way I would interpret that to be consistent with what I believe the Bible teaches is that the sentence of the offender is permanent that those sins that committed can never be reversed. But that doesn’t mean that the punishment is eternal torture. I know that most in today’s church equates the sentence and punishment to be the same but I think it is entirely plausible to separate out the sentence from the punishment. That is why we can believe that God will pursue every one till he wins them over(kind of like the 99 and 1 sheep thing). So the sentence given is eternal it can’t be changed but the punishment is to correction and is of a limited duration. This to me is more consistent with what I read in the Bible.

BNR32FAN · May 11, 2022

Hillsage said:
YLT MAT 26:24 the Son of Man doth indeed go, as it hath been written concerning him, but woe to that man through whom the Son of Man is delivered up! good it were for him/Jesus if that man/Judas had not been born.'

That interpretation fails to recognize that Jesus was going to be crucified regardless of anything Judas did. So even if Judas had never been born it would’ve had no effect on Jesus’ crucifixion because His crucifixion was going to happen whether Judas betrayed Him or not. What your saying is that if Judas hadn’t betrayed Jesus then He would’ve never been crucified and everyone would be thrown into the lake of fire, but that was never God’s plan. So that interpretation cannot be correct.

Confused-by-christianity · May 11, 2022

Hmm said:
Alternatively, why has Christian universalism never gone away?

My assumption is that people can't reconcile:
A Good God sending His creatures to eternal punishment / torment

Hmm said:
...the interest in UR is increasing while mainstream church attendance is declining, certainly in the UK anyway.

Could you link that please?

Hmm said:
...It seems to me that CF also shows this trend in that threads on UR have considerably more comments and, more significantly, views than those on any other subject.
Could it possibly be that the reason belief in universal reconciliation has never gone away is because it's the truth that scripture points to?

I think the primary reason UR hasn't gone away is that people can't make sense of a good God that tortures eternally.
I guess they think they have to choose. Either
1) God's not that good, or
2) Eternal torment is good (under the circumstances) or,
3) People have misunderstood the scriptures.
I guess loads of people go with No. 3. ????

Personally,
It's hard for me to seperate 1 & 2.
The following thoughts are hard for me to overcome...

If eternal torment is right and good - it immediately lowers my concept of "Good".
I think "If that's what you mean by "good", it's not that good."

My idea of God would downgrade as well.
Some might say He is good, but I think "He's not that good".
Maybe all-creative and all-powerful, but I wouldn't describe a diety like that as "good".

Also, it hardly makes you bothered about heaven either.
A God that sends people to eternal torment talks about "heaven", you wonder what that God means when they say "heaven". It's not much to look forward to haha

Why are threads on Christian universalism so popular?

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