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No same people, same groups, same book, same results. Why are you conflating them ?
Revelation 20
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21
He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
Revelation 22
“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.
As the OP said, the UR position has been stated here fairly often. I was made aware of UR about 15 years ago. I studied it thoroughly as I find the concept appealing. However, it can only be supported by selectively quoting scripture and ignoring those verses that contradict UR. So no, you won't change my mind.
I think the tree of life is literal if not then the tree of the knowledge of good and evil would not be literal either. And when he says dogs it is not an animal it was the Jews way of insulting someone.Is the water of life literal water? Are the dogs outside literal dogs? Is the tree of life a literal tree?
All three doctrinal positions of the final judgement have biblical support.As the OP said, the UR position has been stated here fairly often. I was made aware of UR about 15 years ago. I studied it thoroughly as I find the concept appealing. However, it can only be supported by selectively quoting scripture and ignoring those verses that contradict UR. So no, you won't change my mind.
I think the tree of life is literal if not then the tree of the knowledge of good and evil would not be literal either. And when he says dogs it is not an animal it was the Jews way of insulting someone.
So either everyone lives forever by default, or God keeps the wicked alive so the can be tortured.…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say eternal death, in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.”
agreedI think the tree of life is literal if not then the tree of the knowledge of good and evil would not be literal either. And when he says dogs it is not an animal it was the Jews way of insulting someone.
Something definitely happened when that "ate thereof". If the story is accurate history.But how could a tree contain knowledge of good and evil?
How about one I've cited a few dozen times? "The wages of sin is death.""I have to reject ECT, primarily because one has to play games with the meanings of too many Scriptures to make it work." Some examples please?
When God destroyed millions, old, young, children, infants by drowning is that too pagan for you?
When God destroyed thousands, old, young, children, infants etc. was that too pagan for you?
God giveth, and God taketh away. But if you tell me that He tortured those people for all eternity, yeah, that's the act of an Odin or some petulant tribal fetish, not the Righteous Judge of the Universe (I made that title up, it seems appropriate).
Far above my pay grade.You've clearly given this a lot of thought so I'd be interested in your thoughts on these questions. At what point would God admit defeat and decide to permanently erase a life?
My assumption, worth the price charged, is that those annihilated would never have existed. "I never knew you". If God never knew someone, then that someone never existed. The image of Christ, IMO, remains unchanged.How would that act effect the experience of heaven for that person's parents, children, partner etc? And finally, how does the picture of God destroying someone fit in with the image of Christ?
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say eternal death, in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.”
Seriously. I object to playing that kind of game with Scripture. "Oh, A doesn't really mean A, it really means [insert doctrinal position here]" It's a mechanism to make doctrinal presuppositions appear to have a clear Scriptural basis when in fact they're pretty shaky.Jesus never said "eternal death". He just said "death". So since he never said "eternal death" does that mean he meant temporary death?
Seriously. I object to playing that kind of game with Scripture. "Oh, A doesn't really mean A, it really means [insert doctrinal position here]" It's a mechanism to make doctrinal presuppositions appear to have a clear Scriptural basis when in fact they're pretty shaky.
Is the water of life literal water? Are the dogs outside literal dogs? Is the tree of life a literal tree?
The living water is the Holy Spirit. The Tree of life is Yeshua ben Yahweh. You don't want to know who the dogs are.
I agree that Rev is hard to make sense out of what is metaphorical and what is not , but the trees were from Genesis and why could God not make a special tree if he wanted toBut how could a tree contain knowledge of good and evil? My point regarding the dogs is that it's a metaphor. Revelation if full of them. Like Jesus being a lamb with seven horns and seven eyes.
I'm not actually asking what these things really are, since I already know. I'm asking rhetorical questions to point out that Revelation if full of metaphors. perhaps "lake of fire" is yet another metaphor.
Yes.I agree that Rev is hard to make sense out of what is metaphorical and what is not , but the trees were from Genesis and why could God not make a special tree if he wanted to
I agree that Rev is hard to make sense out of what is metaphorical and what is not , but the trees were from Genesis and why could God not make a special tree if he wanted to
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