MJ Only Why are things Created in Gen 1 and Gen 2 different?

[Yahudim]

Beresh't 1 lists the Seven days of Creation in a chronological order. But the order of events recorded in Beresh't 2 are different. For instance, Adonai Elohim creates Adam before He formed the animals from the ground and brought them to Adam to be named. So, WHY is the order different?

 

[HARK!]

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[Yahudim]

Thanks for the help @HARK! Would you care to comment?

 

[daq]

Beresh't 1 lists the Seven days of Creation in a chronological order. But the order of events recorded in Beresh't 2 are different. For instance, Adonai Elohim creates Adam before He formed the animals from the ground and brought them to Adam to be named. So, WHY is the order different?

Shalom Phillip.

The first man Adam became a living soul: the last Adam [became] a life-giving spirit. Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural: then that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy, dust-like, formed of dust from the adamah: the second man is from the heavens. Therefore, imo, the first man is Breshiyt 2:7, and the second man from the heavens is Breshiyt 1:26-28.

 

[Yahudim]

Shalom Phillip.

The first man Adam became a living soul: the last Adam [became] a life-giving spirit. Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural: then that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy, dust-like, formed of dust from the adamah: the second man is from the heavens. Therefore, imo, the first man is Breshiyt 2:7, and the second man from the heavens is Breshiyt 1:26-28.

Shalom daq,

You may very well have a point chaver, and it is an interesting observation. But that is not what I am really asking.

In the 'Seven days of Creation' we find a particular order. But in the garden, we find a completely different account of all of these events, not just Adam, not just when animals were made or how. The juxtaposition one to another reveals a profound difference, most notably between theory and praxis. Context is everything and it is the only way we have, to distinguish a prooftext from a pretext.

Taken as a whole (chapter 1 vs chapter 2) why are there so many very distinct differences in what was described and how it was described. Put another way, why was the original model laid out in days and the actual model described as interactive events? (If you read my question carefully, it will reveal my answer.)

 

[Yahudim]

I will take this a step further. There were several covenants made with man: Adam, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, etc. Can you name them? Do you know what they are?

Each covenant contains the terms of the covenant including the blessings for keeping the terms and curses for breaking them. Can you name them? Do you know what they are?

Each of these covenants are sealed with a seal and marked with a mark. Can you name them? Do you know what they are?

The Exodus describes a number of events that ultimately leads the children of Israel out of Egypt and into the land of promise. Can you name them? Do you know what they are?

These events are also described as Moedim, the Appointed Times and are anniversaries of the events of the Exodus: Pesach, Yom HaBikkurim, Shavuot, etc. Can you name them? Do you know what they are?

Finally, each of the above thematically align with the Days of Creation. Can you name them? Do you know what they are?

If you will fill in the matrix correctly, you will note a distinct pattern where everything contained in the beginning has a distinct relationship with each successive layer. Can you name them? Do you know what they are?

When you can do this, you will see how the the 'Days of Creation' is not an order of events, but a plan. We are made in His image. Think of any organized and successful person and I will show you someone that created a plan before he did anything else. This is Adonai's plan of creation and in it, He is sharing His plan of salvation for His Children.

His plan has always been to lead us back to the garden and to restore both His creation and His children to the state of affairs before the fall.

 

[Yahudim]

When you can figure this out, I will show you the plan that He showed His Messiah and describe why Y'shua did what He did and why He did it when He did it.

Let's see if we can wrap this up before Shabbat, or failing that, before Pesach.

 

[daq]

Shalom daq,

You may very well have a point chaver, and it is an interesting observation. But that is not what I am really asking.

In the 'Seven days of Creation' we find a particular order. But in the garden, we find a completely different account of all of these events, not just Adam, not just when animals were made or how. The juxtaposition one to another reveals a profound difference, most notably between theory and praxis. Context is everything and it is the only way we have, to distinguish a prooftext from a pretext.

Taken as a whole (chapter 1 vs chapter 2) why are there so many very distinct differences in what was described and how it was described. Put another way, why was the original model laid out in days and the actual model described as interactive events? (If you read my question carefully, it will reveal my answer.)

I will take this a step further. There were several covenants made with man: Adam, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, etc. Can you name them? Do you know what they are?

Each covenant contains the terms of the covenant including the blessings for keeping the terms and curses for breaking them. Can you name them? Do you know what they are?

Each of these covenants are sealed with a seal and marked with a mark. Can you name them? Do you know what they are?

The Exodus describes a number of events that ultimately leads the children of Israel out of Egypt and into the land of promise. Can you name them? Do you know what they are?

These events are also described as Moedim, the Appointed Times and are anniversaries of the events of the Exodus: Pesach, Yom HaBikkurim, Shavuot, etc. Can you name them? Do you know what they are?

Finally, each of the above thematically align with the Days of Creation. Can you name them? Do you know what they are?

If you will fill in the matrix correctly, you will note a distinct pattern where everything contained in the beginning has a distinct relationship with each successive layer. Can you name them? Do you know what they are?

When you can do this, you will see how the the 'Days of Creation' is not an order of events, but a plan. We are made in His image. Think of any organized and successful person and I will show you someone that created a plan before he did anything else. This is Adonai's plan of creation and in it, He is sharing His plan of salvation for His Children.

His plan has always been to lead us back to the garden and to restore both His creation and His children to the state of affairs before the fall.

Yes, I do have an understanding of the Good Message from the opening creation account and it is based initially on the parables in Matthew 13.

When you can figure this out, I will show you the plan that He showed His Messiah and describe why Y'shua did what He did and why He did it when He did it

Let's see if we can wrap this up before Shabbat, or failing that, before Pesach.

Since I already offered an answer for the "why", and because surely there is more than one "why", no need to wait for me to answer here: I leave your thread open to you so as to expound your points.

 

[Yahudim]

Yes, I do have an understanding of the Good Message from the opening creation account and it is based initially on the parables in Matthew 13.

Since I already offered an answer for the "why", and because surely there is more than one "why", no need to wait for me to answer here: I leave your thread open to you so as to expound your points.

I am so sorry daq. When I started writing these series of posts, I had switched to the universal 'you' in my mind and was rambling as old men do sometimes. The questions were not specifically aimed at you, although I do covet your feedback.

One night after worship, prayer and questions given to the Lord, He gave me some pretty startling revelations. I told my wife and she said she had never heard anyone preach or teach on this before. She was amazed and made me stay up most of the night answering her questions.

Later, I started digging into scripture and as I read and prayed, He reminded me of other questions He had answered for me. That is when my mind was opened to the realization that it was all interconnected. All of these small revelations were just pieces of a greater whole.

Forgive me. I was caught up in the moment and was addressing everyone, the 'gentle reader' as it were, not singling you out. But now that I think about it. No one seems to be interested anyway. I blame myself. If you are satisfied with the parables found in Matt 13, who am I to dissuade you?

Perhaps this is just too much. It seems this forum has changed a lot since I was last here. I have changed. Messianism has changed. Who knew?

 

[daq]

I am so sorry daq. When I started writing these series of posts, I had switched to the universal 'you' in my mind and was rambling as old men do sometimes. The questions were not specifically aimed at you, although I do covet your feedback.

One night after worship, prayer and questions given to the Lord, He gave me some pretty startling revelations. I told my wife and she said she had never heard anyone preach or teach on this before. She was amazed and made me stay up most of the night answering her questions.

Later, I started digging into scripture and as I read and prayed, He reminded me of other questions He had answered for me. That is when my mind was opened to the realization that it was all interconnected. All of these small revelations were just pieces of a greater whole.

Forgive me. I was caught up in the moment and was addressing everyone, the 'gentle reader' as it were, not singling you out. But now that I think about it. No one seems to be interested anyway. I blame myself. If you are satisfied with the parables found in Matt 13, who am I to dissuade you?

Perhaps this is just too much. It seems this forum has changed a lot since I was last here. I have changed. Messianism has changed. Who knew?

It's all good Phillip, I kind of took it that way anyway but decided to respond with what I did in light of that. As for the forum having changed, indeed, it has changed a lot, and please remember that I also have not been back here much longer than since when you also came back. As for Messianism, the real deal is never going to change, (hehe).

 

[Yahudim]

Thank you brother. The encouragement is needed and appreciated.

How many times is it written about Messiah Y'shua that he did this or that so that what was written could be fulfilled? That is the endgame here. Only in this case, Messiah was and still is, fulfilling the writings of the prophets of old. But the Greatest Prophet of all, Adonai Elohenu, wrote the story of His Messiah in the creation.

The moed are not just anniversaries of Exodus events, they are prophetic of Messiah's ministry. The seven Days of Creation, the seven Covenants, the seven Moedim, the seven furnishings of the Tabernacle, and many others are interrelated and all speak of Messiah and His intercession for all of man.

The study is massive. Some relationships are obscure unless the reader is informed in how these many things fit together. Unfortunately, I had a computer crash where the backup was corrupted. Many scripture references and teachings were lost.

I have also been brain damaged by a pharmaceutical injected in me without my informed consent during my hospitalization. They told me it was an antibiotic. It was in fact, a topoisomerase interrupter. It damaged my mitochondria and caused such high levels of oxidative stress that my entire collagen matrix was attacked. My entire body has been affected, organs, muscles, nerves, connective tissues, not the least of which is my ability to recall.

And while I remember the word and the revelations given me, chapter and verse are difficult to remember. So my research is slow and time is short.

Often, revelations are given to many people around the same time. So it was my hope that I would encounter others that could help. That is why I am so very thankful for your encouragement.

 

[daq]

Thank you brother. The encouragement is needed and appreciated.

How many times is it written about Messiah Y'shua that he did this or that so that what was written could be fulfilled? That is the endgame here. Only in this case, Messiah was and still is, fulfilling the writings of the prophets of old. But the Greatest Prophet of all, Adonai Elohenu, wrote the story of His Messiah in the creation.

The moed are not just anniversaries of Exodus events, they are prophetic of Messiah's ministry. The seven Days of Creation, the seven Covenants, the seven Moedim, the seven furnishings of the Tabernacle, and many others are interrelated and all speak of Messiah and His intercession for all of man.

The study is massive. Some relationships are obscure unless the reader is informed in how these many things fit together. Unfortunately, I had a computer crash where the backup was corrupted. Many scripture references and teachings were lost.

I have also been brain damaged by a pharmaceutical injected in me without my informed consent during my hospitalization. They told me it was an antibiotic. It was in fact, a topoisomerase interrupter. It damaged my mitochondria and caused such high levels of oxidative stress that my entire collagen matrix was attacked. My entire body has been affected, organs, muscles, nerves, connective tissues, not the least of which is my ability to recall.

And while I remember the word and the revelations given me, chapter and verse are difficult to remember. So my research is slow and time is short.

Often, revelations are given to many people around the same time. So it was my hope that I would encounter others that could help. That is why I am so very thankful for your encouragement.

Perhaps we might start at the top:

I will take this a step further. There were several covenants made with man: Adam, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, etc. Can you name them? Do you know what they are?

Where is this covenant with Adam that you mentioned? I understand the opening creation account to be this covenant because the scripture teaches that the one therein is Ben Adam. Take your pick on the translation: I am only quoting the KJV below because it is so well known.

Psalms 8:4-8 KJV
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;
8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.

This is clearly speaking of the dominion given to Ben Adam in the opening creation account, (Genesis 1:26-28). See? We are right back to my first post herein. Have you noticed how the bad is turned into good?

The curse:

Genesis 3:17-19 KJV
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Becomes a blessing:

Genesis 1:29-31 KJV
29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

But not if the order is incorrectly understood.

 

[daq]

I have also been brain damaged by a pharmaceutical injected in me without my informed consent during my hospitalization. They told me it was an antibiotic. It was in fact, a topoisomerase interrupter. It damaged my mitochondria and caused such high levels of oxidative stress that my entire collagen matrix was attacked. My entire body has been affected, organs, muscles, nerves, connective tissues, not the least of which is my ability to recall.

Though I have said this once before, I will say it a slightly different way here again, brother, so as to be sure you understood the who in what I said. The old one is cut off, but fear not, for Elohim is in the habit of turning curses into blessings, and as we know, all things work together toward the good for those who love Elohim: and the power of the Master is perfected in weakness, (2 Corinthians 12:2-9).

 

[Yahudim]

@daq I'll get back to you. Very hectic preparation day. Love your posts. Looking forward to sharing!

 

[daq]

@daq I'll get back to you. Very hectic preparation day. Love your posts. Looking forward to sharing!

Shabbat Shalom, Phillip, not only according to the covenant and sign to the myriads of the thousands of Yisrael in Meshiah, but also according to the covenant to Adam in Ben Adam.

 

[Yahudim]

So, off to take care of some stuff. But before I run out the door, your posts have inspired questions, starting with these:

1) Light was declared 'Good'. Do you juxtapose Light with everything else spoken of on the 1st day? Darkness, chaos, etc.? 1.b) How do you see these things with regard to the Adamic covenant?

2) So, death was a consequence of disobedience; To Wit: Eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil. The tree of Life was there too. This fruit was also forbidden. How do you view these matters as part of the 1st covenant?

 

[daq]

1) Light was declared 'Good'. Do you juxtapose Light with everything else spoken of on the 1st day? Darkness, chaos, etc.? 1.b) How do you see these things with regard to the Adamic covenant?

2) So, death was a consequence of disobedience; To Wit: Eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil. The tree of Life was there too. This fruit was also forbidden. How do you view these matters as part of the 1st covenant?

This will lead into more esoteric things, if you want to go there, but I do not view the light as having been created: for even Paul says that Elohim commanded, summoned, or bid the light to shine forth out of the darkness, (2 Corinthians 4:6), and that would necessarily mean, at least imo, that the light was not created. This light is then called Yom, which changes everything from a natural minded perspective to the supernal: for this is the Yom-Light-Truth that enlightens everyone coming into the world, (John 1:4-9).

Elohim therefore cut down His Word, (the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world), unto the first man, and in Genesis 1:26 the man is then first given the name Adam, and this is where the Torah says he was named, (stated in Genesis 5:2). However, in the Hebrew text, from Genesis 2:7 all the way through up until Genesis 4:25, we read the word adam with the article attached, (ha-adam), which simply means "the man". And because proper nouns in Hebrew do not tolerate the definite article we know that this is not the name Adam.

What is it then? The first man becomes a living soul in Genesis 2:7, but is not actually named Adam anywhere in the text which follows, until Genesis 4:25, where we are informed that Adam produced Sheth. The first man transgressed, and died, just as he was warned, and so it is with everyone who partakes of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

How therefore did Elohim raise him up?

ברא bara' = to cut down

Elohim cuts down the shamayim and the eretz, (because ha-adam transgressed), and the eretz becomes desolate and empty, and darkness on the face of the deep: and Ruah Elohim broods over the face of the waters, (like a dove or a hen over her brood).

This meaning of bara is necessary to understand what Yeshayah the Prophet says in the following: for it is related to the opening creation account and to the first man having been cut down into the image of Elohim.

Isaiah 45:7-8
7 I form the light, and create cut down darkness: I make peace, and create cut down evil: I the LORD do all these things.
8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, [Genesis 1:1] and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open up, and let it bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it cut it down.

Isaiah 45:12-13
12 I have made the earth, and created cut down man [Adam] upon it: I, even My hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build My city, and he shall let go My captives, not for price nor reward, says the LORD of hosts.

Isaiah 45:13a OG LXX
13a εγω ηγειρα αυτον μετα δικαιοσυνης βασιλεα
13a I have raised him up with the King of Righteousness [Melki-Tzedek]

 

[Yahudim]

This will lead into more esoteric things, if you want to go there, but I do not view the light as having been created: for even Paul says that Elohim commanded, summoned, or bid the light to shine forth out of the darkness, (2 Corinthians 4:6), and that would necessarily mean, at least imo, that the light was not created. This light is then called Yom, which changes everything from a natural minded perspective to the supernal: for this is the Yom-Light-Truth that enlightens everyone coming into the world, (John 1:4-9).

Elohim therefore cut down His Word, (the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world), unto the first man, and in Genesis 1:26 the man is then first given the name Adam, and this is where the Torah says he was named, (stated in Genesis 5:2). However, in the Hebrew text, from Genesis 2:7 all the way through up until Genesis 4:25, we read the word adam with the article attached, (ha-adam), which simply means "the man". And because proper nouns in Hebrew do not tolerate the definite article we know that this is not the name Adam.

What is it then? The first man becomes a living soul in Genesis 2:7, but is not actually named Adam anywhere in the text which follows, until Genesis 4:25, where we are informed that Adam produced Sheth. The first man transgressed, and died, just as he was warned, and so it is with everyone who partakes of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

How therefore did Elohim raise him up?

ברא bara' = to cut down

Elohim cuts down the shamayim and the eretz, (because ha-adam transgressed), and the eretz becomes desolate and empty, and darkness on the face of the deep: and Ruah Elohim broods over the face of the waters, (like a dove or a hen over her brood).

This meaning of bara is necessary to understand what Yeshayah the Prophet says in the following: for it is related to the opening creation account and to the first man having been cut down into the image of Elohim.

Isaiah 45:7-8
7 I form the light, and create cut down darkness: I make peace, and create cut down evil: I the LORD do all these things.
8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, [Genesis 1:1] and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open up, and let it bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it cut it down.

Isaiah 45:12-13
12 I have made the earth, and created cut down man [Adam] upon it: I, even My hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build My city, and he shall let go My captives, not for price nor reward, says the LORD of hosts.

Isaiah 45:13a OG LXX
13a εγω ηγειρα αυτον μετα δικαιοσυνης βασιλεα
13a I have raised him up with the King of Righteousness [Melki-Tzedek]

Well certainly food for thought, chaver. However, 'esoteric'? It's a little late in the day for the things of Elohim to be held only by the 'initiates'. I pray, let all thing be revealed to the glory of the Father and to the salvation of man!

I am looking for that particular definition of 'bara'. It has always been represented to me as to 'create ex nihilo' or create out of nothing, something only Elohim can do. Can you help?

 

[daq]

Well certainly food for thought, chaver. However, 'esoteric'? It's a little late in the day for the things of Elohim to be held only by the 'initiates'. I pray, let all thing be revealed to the glory of the Father and to the salvation of man!

I am looking for that particular definition of 'bara'. It has always been represented to me as to 'create ex nihilo' or create out of nothing, something only Elohim can do. Can you help?

This usage of bara is taught in the passage below. : )

Joshua 17:15-18 KJV
15 And Joshua answered them, If thou be a great people, then get thee up to the wood country, and cut down [H1254 bara'] for thyself there in the land of the Perizzites and of the giants, if mount Ephraim be too narrow for thee.
16 And the children of Joseph said, The hill is not enough for us: and all the Canaanites that dwell in the land of the valley have chariots of iron, both they who are of Bethshean and her towns, and they who are of the valley of Jezreel.
17 And Joshua spake unto the house of Joseph, even to Ephraim and to Manasseh, saying, Thou art a great people, and hast great power: thou shalt not have one lot only:
18 But the mountain shall be thine; for it is a wood, and thou shalt cut it down: [H1254 bara'] and the outgoings of it shall be thine: for thou shalt drive out the Canaanites, though they have iron chariots, and though they be strong.

Don't let the different constructs deter you: it's the basic definition of the word that is in question. Bara is being used in the sense of cutting down trees to build a house, (to create, but the cutting down of the tree or trees is necessary, (and of course men are likened to trees in some allegories and parables)).

 

[Yahudim]

This usage of bara is taught in the passage below. : )

Joshua 17:15-18 KJV
15 And Joshua answered them, If thou be a great people, then get thee up to the wood country, and cut down [H1254 bara'] for thyself there in the land of the Perizzites and of the giants, if mount Ephraim be too narrow for thee.
16 And the children of Joseph said, The hill is not enough for us: and all the Canaanites that dwell in the land of the valley have chariots of iron, both they who are of Bethshean and her towns, and they who are of the valley of Jezreel.
17 And Joshua spake unto the house of Joseph, even to Ephraim and to Manasseh, saying, Thou art a great people, and hast great power: thou shalt not have one lot only:
18 But the mountain shall be thine; for it is a wood, and thou shalt cut it down: [H1254 bara'] and the outgoings of it shall be thine: for thou shalt drive out the Canaanites, though they have iron chariots, and though they be strong.

Don't let the different constructs deter you: it's the basic definition of the word that is in question. Bara is being used in the sense of cutting down trees to build a house, (to create, but the cutting down of the tree or trees is necessary, (and of course men are likened to trees in some allegories and parables)).

So you are saying that the multiple definitions the Hebrew lexicon are applicable across the entirety of PRDS interpretations? This I will pray and meditate upon. Thank you for clarifying. I actually makes a lot of sense, especially in the deciphering of prophecy. Toda!