Why are they gay?

[DivineRAiN]

..because some people don't SEE a difference? Some people don't see how offensive a comparison it is. Others are so interested in "winning an argument" they don't CARE how wrong the comparison is. Plus it makes you look so "Christian" comparing people you don't like to people nobody likes.
tulc( )

guess they think it benefits their argument.

 

[GenemZ]

guess they think it benefits their argument.

No... it simply de-glorifies those who see homosexuality as being a good thing. It puts them on the spot by making them see someone else as being degenerate, as a normal straight person sees a gay being degenerate.

It gives them that perspective. Its sweet irony from God's justice.

For, they know if the same argument is given for child molesters as is tried for gays, i.e., born that way. That it destroys any sense of justification for that being their excuse.

But for normal straight society? They see both as equally offensive. In ancient societies sex with children was just another norm, an alternative choice for sexual expression. It did not have to involve child rape and violence. It was seen as a norm.

Today we only hear about the criminally insane that kill and murder children they rape. But? Look at Michael Jackson. He is very nice and kind to children. He can simply say "God made me this way." Jesus loves me like I love little boys."

And, in his perversion, he perverts God's truth and believes it.

No difference between homosexuality and pedaphilia, when the terrible violence we see in the news concerning child rape being associated with pedaphiles, is eliminated from the equation.

"Pedaphiles that are nice to children are loving. These, God approves of." Just like those who say God approves of gays that are in a loving monogamous relationship.

God disaproves of all perversions of his design of man, who was created in His image. For these pervert God's image in what they do.

There are adults that have sex with children and do not act violently. The children do not know any better. They may be very loving to that child. Does that make it justified?

Back to ancient Rome we go... Its when we have a modern culture with Christian influenced values that such practices must hide underground.

As we saw in the recent news about Thailand and John Karr. Some cultures approve of sex with children. In those cultures, they can easily claim God loves them too, just as he made them. That they can also make the claim that they have been around since the beginning of time. For, they have been.

Its the same argument. But, one that offends gays. Because it makes the perspective they use, being exposed as a cover for the degenerate. Ironically, so. They must admit its no justification for such behavior.

In Christ, GeneZ

 

[relspace]

stratt: If you can be born gay, then is a child molester born the same way?

why is when the subject of homosexuality is being discussed, somebody has to bring up child molesters?.. are the 2 groups THAT similar?
Most child molesters (if not all) were molested themselves..(I honestly don't get the connection, but I keep hearing there is 1) and they're intention is to have sexual satisfaction, not a loving relationship. The way I see it, that group is closer to rapists altho for the most part they aren't as violent, but some molesters do rape children. This is not along the same lines as the subject of homosexuality so I don't see how some ppl think there's some kind of connection or similarity

It is really rather simple. We are talking about sexual preferences and deviation from the accepted norm. How can we not make such a comparison? But making the comparision is not the same as saying that they are the same. You cannot forbid the comparison. You have to deal with it. And it is counterproductive to get upset and to refuse to consider it. The difference can be explained with the calm application of reason, as I did in my previous post quoted here.

He believes that homosexuality is against the law of God and therefore he is arguing that calling it love is not an adequate defense. This is a sound argument, for it is typical in many types of non-acceptible behaviors (like verbal and physical abuse) that the perpetrators call what they are doing love. So the proper response to this argument is not to yell "infidel" (or "homophobe") but to attempt the calm application of reason.

It is clear to me that the love is as varied as people and that that love and good are two different things. When a wife is murdered, who is the prime suspect? Love can follow many twisted paths. How then are we to judge when something which is called love is also a good and wholesome thing. In the obvious cases where it is not good, this is made quite clear by the evidence of trauma and harm that someone experiences as a result of it.

In cases of verbal abuse, however, the evidence of trauma can be increasingly difficult to establish. What do you think of a relationship between husband and wife where the wife is subtly encouraged to thingk that she is incapable of taking care of herself. It is subtle but there is a twist of wrongness in this thing they call love between them. However, such things are generally considered nobody's business but theirs. Relationships are often quite complicated with both good things and bad, and only the participants can judge for themselves if the relationship is more good than bad.

So, when a homosexual relationship is called love, how shall we judge if this is a good thing? Is there evidence of trauma? Are the participants happy? Does the relationship diminish one of the participants or does it empower both of them and make them more effective and healthy? Who better than the participants themselves can make such an evaluation? This is assuredly the basis for the secular judgement which does not classify a homosexual relationship with those other things which people might call love but which are illegal because there is evidence of trauma and harm.

So how might someone who believes that homosexuality is a sin classify the such relationships differently. It must be according to some type of spiritual harm which is not objectively observable or measurable. Which means that it is very much subject to religious belief, and so if our society is to pay any reasonable respect to the principles of religious freedom, this cannot be the basis of secular law and judgement.

Christians have disagreements about a great many things including how many different passages of the Bible are to be interpreted or taken seriously. It seems to me that we must accept the fact that a portion of Christendom embraces the secular judgement of homosexuality as part of their understanding of Christianity. As long as we have the freedom to our own interpretations and the right to speak our mind where it is appropriate, then why should we complain?

However, I must say, nice going genez! For all the typical justifications of homosexuality are equally inadequate, for the reasons genez has given. As far as I am concerned the only justification which can really "cut it" is that of freedom of religion and choice. People have the right to live their lives as they choose in "the pursuit of happiness" as long as this does not infringe on the same rights of others. The acceptability of these choices in the eyes of God is a personal matter between them and God.

 

[fevoldj2]

So you simply prefer to be with a female? That's it? I prefer to eat a sandwich, but I'm hungry, and there is no bread, so instead, I will eat ramen. There's a difference between preference and sexual orientation.

 

[tulc]

Its the same argument. But, one that offends gays. Because it makes the perspective they use, being exposed as a cover for the degenerate. Ironically, so. They must admit its no justification for such behavior.

See? Just don't see any difference. That's why when it's pointed out there doesn't seem to be any difference between Islamic theocracy and Christian theocracy they just nod their heads and say you're absolutly right.
tulc(or...they should anyway)

 

[belladonic-haze]

..because some people don't SEE a difference? Some people don't see how offensive a comparison it is. Others are so interested in "winning an argument" they don't CARE how wrong the comparison is. Plus it makes you look so "Christian" comparing people you don't like to people nobody likes.
tulc( )

Amen!

 

[DivineRAiN]

genez: No... it simply de-glorifies those who see homosexuality as being a good thing. It puts them on the spot by making them see someone else as being degenerate, as a normal straight person sees a gay being degenerate.

dunno, I haven't felt put on the spot when someone brings child molesters into it. And I think myself as a pretty normal straight person, but I don't see gay people as being degenerates.

But for normal straight society? They see both as equally offensive.

that's weird.. I wonder why ppl feel they are equally offensive. On my block there's a lesbian couple (one has a young son and her girls are adults now), and a lesbian cpl that just moved in right across the street from me. And I'm friends with 2 guys who are a gay couple. I have no qualms here, but I would not like it if a child molester moved in next door or down the street.

I have to cut this short n get going.. I'll try to get back to it later tonite

 

[Mling]

Well, genez just proved the point.

Some people seem incapable of discerning between consentual, loving relationship and rape.

Makes me shudder to think what their partners must be going through.

 

[relspace]

Well, genez just proved the point.

Some people seem incapable of discerning between consentual, loving relationship and rape.

Makes me shudder to think what their partners must be going through.

There is a difference between saying something which other people may be offended by and being offensive. You are clearly being offensive. But it does make me look back at what genez said a little more closely to try to understand what has provoked this.

as a normal straight person sees a gay being degenerate.

Well this is presumptive and certainly offensive to me and every other so called "normal straight" person who do not see homosexuals as degenerate. At least not without the context of the admission that as a sinner I am just as degenerate and as criminal in the eyes of God as any pedophile. I have the same disease (sin) and without the aid of God, I am just as doomed.

For, they know if the same argument is given for child molesters as is tried for gays, i.e., born that way. That it destroys any sense of justification for that being their excuse.

This like the majority of genez' post, this is a very good argument against many of the types of justifications that I have heard for homosexuality and it is the reason for my positive response above. Again I must repeat that the only legitimate justification for homosexuality that I can see is simply the freedom of religion and choice - the right to live ones life as one chooses as long as it does not infringe on the same rights of others.

But for normal straight society? They see both as equally offensive.

Like the other statement, this is going overboard in attributing attitudes to people which is both presumptive and completely incorrect. The vast majority of people do NOT see both as equally offensive. In fact, I believe that the majority does not consider the sexual practices between consenting adults to be either offensive or anybody's business but theirs.

No difference between homosexuality and pedaphilia, when the terrible violence we see in the news concerning child rape being associated with pedaphiles, is eliminated from the equation.

This is simply grossly incorrect. Even without violence there is ample evidence of trauma in the sexual abuse of children! And even without this evidence of trauma there is a huge difference between taking advantage of children and the activities of consenting adults.

I have to conclude from this and previous posts of genez that he does not take sufficient care to avoid being offensive. BUT his offensiveness is nowhere near as direct and as personal as the statement which you have just made. Nevertheless, I feel compelled to say to the both of you, Stop It Now!

 

[GenemZ]

See? Just don't see any difference. That's why when it's pointed out there doesn't seem to be any difference between Islamic theocracy and Christian theocracy they just nod their heads and say you're absolutly right.
tulc(or...they should anyway)

I do not see your point. Christianity was not intended to ever be a theocracy. On the other hand, Islam's whole purpose is to establish a theocracy were ever it can.

When ever a Christian theocracy was attempted, it became the same spirit of Islam in the guise of being for Christianity. Its not Christianity. Yet? When Islam establishes a theocracy? Its been successful in what it set out to do.

Were you making a point? Or, you simply do not undersand the purpose of Christianity, which is to rule over individual souls with truth and Spirit. No where in the Church age are commanded to establish a theocracy. If so? Show us where?

In Christ, GeneZ

 

[GenemZ]

that's weird.. I wonder why ppl feel they are equally offensive. On my block there's a lesbian couple (one has a young son and her girls are adults now), and a lesbian cpl that just moved in right across the street from me. And I'm friends with 2 guys who are a gay couple. I have no qualms here, but I would not like it if a child molester moved in next door or down the street.

I will rephrase that..... Most people.

I have learned over the years that there are some people that have a natural affinity for gays, and they are not gay. They are not the norm, though. If they were? We would not be having this debate. Would we? So how do you represent most people?

And, I made mention of explaining how at one time pedaphilia in ancient Greece and Rome we seen as a norm.

Its only since Pedaphilia been condemned by most modern cultures, that we see child molesters as the last vestige hold outs. Yet NAMBLA would present the same argument that gays now give. If its a loving and committed relationship? Why should others say its wrong? But, before they can take their bold step, gays must first become established as a norm. Society has to become numbed down.

At one time the old world allowed sex with children in certain ancient cultures. Just like homosexual expression was seen as an acceptable norm.

That all ended when the Church went into the world and the pagan temples were shut down. Now, it seems that that paganized spirit of thinking is having its own mini revival. And its to be expected! Because the Antichrist when he comes will rule over the revived Roman Empire when God allows him his seven years of reign.

Those days will be the glory days that gays who are now working their butts off for, look towards seeing that sort of day. Ironically, when the man of lawlessness appears? He will be as a Messiah for the gays. For he will despise all Judeo/Christian teachings.

But....... as long as it makes you feel good? Its OK. Right? God has no say now. But, He will have the final say. So, go play.

In Christ, GeneZ

 

[GenemZ]

Well, genez just proved the point.

Some people seem incapable of discerning between consentual, loving relationship and rape.

Makes me shudder to think what their partners must be going through.

I am not incapable. If consenting adults want to do that? So? What's that to me?

Yet, when they try to say God approves? Then that is when I wonder who lacks discernment. And, that is what my arguments have been based upon. Secular rights? Consenting adults? Be my guest. Telling me God approves? You just stepped over the line.

And, if you read my post. I mentioned not the child molesters we see in the news today who rape. I broke it down and explained about ancient cultures, and how predaphilia was seen as a norm, not something needing rape to be expressed. How pedaphilia can be mutually consenting and even committed.

But, the world has changed..... But, evil and Satan's thinking is still with us. He will lie against God's law.

But? One a secular level? One wants to have sex with a member of the same sex? Be my guest. Just do not try and tell me God approves. And, do not try to tell me that God's Word approves of such a thing.

In other words? This is the wrong setting (Christian Forum) to naively think others here will take this issue as a secular issue. And, I do not think some here are that naive. They come here and enter such debates as a means to bash Christians who believe God's Word.

Wonder why? Homosexuality is not a physical issue. Its a kingdom issue. But that must never become the issue... For it would bring too much light onto the debating floor, and certain people would be blinded by the light. They must close their souls and keep it out.

John 1:5 niv​

The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.​

John 3:19-20 (New International Version)​

"This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed."​

That is why what certain Christians say here must be distorted when quoted and altered from its original intent, so the one desiring to bash can feel justified.

But?

All along the basher can not see what it is they are really dealing with. They must put the Bible believing person's thoughts in a box and paint on the outside what they know they can deal with and attack.

After a while it gets to be like they are attacking someone else, but they keep giving that other person your name.

One gets used to it after it keeps happening, and one learns to accept it as a part of the spiritual warfare Christians have been baptized into. For, we wrestle not against flesh and blood.

Yet? As long as the Word of God goes forth and his truth is revealed? Let the ones who refuse to get what was meant to be utilized as a springboard for God's truth, for those here who do desire to grow in understanding God's Word. Let God's Truth be shined forth. And, let the others fumble for their sunglasses to cover themselves with.

So, there you have it...​

Grace and peace, GeneZ​

 

[DivineRAiN]

genez: No difference between homosexuality and pedaphilia, when the terrible violence we see in the news concerning child rape being associated with pedaphiles, is eliminated from the equation.

you don't see a difference?

There are adults that have sex with children and do not act violently. The children do not know any better. They may be very loving to that child. Does that make it justified?

Some years ago I had talked to a woman who used to be a friend of mine.. she told me about a young girl that we both knew. The girl told her something that was being done to her by her sister's husband. A man that I used to babysit for n he was also a friend. He didn't physically hurt her and he didn't use force (he also didn't go all the way). I was shocked that everyone (in our circle) knew what was going on and nobody was doing anything about it. Some thought the girl misunderstood something. The girl's Mother even knew. People didn't want to get involved. And ppl didn't want to take him from his kids... he had 2 daughters at the time and a wife who couldn't take care of them on her own. I called cps, they went to her school.. he ended up in prison for a while. He is back in prison again for what he did to one of his daughters. There was another little girl inbetween, with 2 adult witnesses other than his wife, but they didn't want to get involved (they just wanted to talk about it and the lil girl wasn't saying anything), I ended up cutting my ties to these ppl. They are just as sick as he is.
So no, it isn't justified to me. It isn't OK to molest a child.

Its the same argument. But, one that offends gays. Because it makes the perspective they use, being exposed as a cover for the degenerate. Ironically, so. They must admit its no justification for such behavior.

don't know about you, but to me homosexuality and heterosexuality are almost alike... the difference being gender and the ability to breed. We probably don't have a problem with seeing a difference between heterosexuality n child molesters, right? I don't justify my heterosexuality, and I don't need anyone to justify their homosexuality to me. Why would anyone need or want gay ppl to justify their sexuality?

 

[Mling]

Re: Genez.

Ok, you say you are "not incapable" of discerning between consentual sex and rape. Let's go with that.

The main difference between pedophillia and other sexual orientiations is the issue of consent--homosexual behavior is consentual, as is heterosexual behavior. If the behavior is not consentual, than it is often not a matter of sex, but of power, hatred, or sadism.

Pedophillia, on the other hand, is an attraction to somebody who is truly unable to consent. If it is acted on at all, it is automatically some some type of assault.

And yet, you try to suggest "consentual pedophillic" relationships. Earlier, you suggested that nonconsentual contact is such an inherent part of homosexuality that gay people should be banned from the military because they would "rub against" other men in the foxholes. As if gay people are so devoid of all values that they would rather commit frottage than protect their own lives.

So, clearly, this is a distinction you are not making. If it is not because you are incapable of it, then it must be because you are unwilling. Which raises the next question. Why are you unwilling? If you can see the distinction here, why deliberately obfuscate the issue?

 

[GenemZ]

So no, it isn't justified to me. It isn't OK to molest a child.

Its not OK to molest anyone. But? If pedaphilia became a norm of a culture? As it was once in ancient cultures? That would be for another day, and for another bombardment of politically correct enforcement to change the thinking of a people...... down the raod a ways. First, let's get the gays acceptable. That's too much for now.

don't know about you, but to me homosexuality and heterosexuality are almost alike... the difference being gender and the ability to breed.

Breed? Like in breeders?

Like in the derogatory term gays use towards straights? I wonder why you chose that term. I believe I see a strong bias showing.

There is much more to heterosexuality when God blesses the relationship. Rarely seen these days since we had the sexual reveolution of the Sixties. And, that is exacly why gays feel so free to decalre themselves as equals. For? Without God's love blessing a man and woman? Sex is sex..... Just choose your apparatus in the form of a person.

We probably don't have a problem with seeing a difference between heterosexuality n child molesters, right? I don't justify my heterosexuality, and I don't need anyone to justify their homosexuality to me. Why would anyone need or want gay ppl to justify their sexuality?

Leviticus 20:13 niv
" 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."
​

I do not believe God is a big fan of gay sex.

Do you believe he is?

" 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

​

That is because its not just sin involved. Its because they have turned to evil, and its revealed in HOW they sin. Its a lie against the truth. It is a perversion of God's image of man and woman. God is both male and female in his creating man in his image. Interesting thought.

Now? If you want to turn this into a secular debate and leave God out of it?

Then! I would say you are doing a fine job of holding your ground. But, not when God is left in the equation.

Have a nice Day, GeneZ

 

[treblebass]

[/color][/font][/size]

[/color]Its not OK to molest anyone. But? If pedaphilia became a norm of a culture? As it was once in ancient cultures? That would be for another day, and for another bombardment of politically correct enforcement to change the thinking of a people...... down the raod a ways. First, let's get the gays acceptable. That's too much for now.





Breed? Like in breeders?

Like in the derogatory term gays use towards straights? I wonder why you chose that term. I believe I see a strong bias showing.

There is much more to heterosexuality when God blesses the relationship. Rarely seen these days since we had the sexual reveolution of the Sixties. And, that is exacly why gays feel so free to decalre themselves as equals. For? Without God's love blessing a man and woman? Sex is sex..... Just choose your apparatus in the form of a person.

Leviticus 20:13 niv​

" 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."​

I do not believe God is a big fan of gay sex.

Do you believe he is?

" 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."​

That is because its not just sin involved. Its because they have turned to evil, and its revealed in HOW they sin. Its a lie against the truth. It is a perversion of God's image of man and woman. God is both male and female in his creating man in his image. Interesting thought.

Now? If you want to turn this into a secular debate and leave God out of it?

Then! I would say you are doing a fine job of holding your ground. But, not when God is left in the equation.

Have a nice Day, GeneZ

I have to agree...i.e. Sodom and Gomorrah...

 

[Mling]

Keep in mind that the Leviticus sword cuts both ways. It also states that if a community refuses to stone the offenders of a stoning-worthy offense, all who refused will be cut off from God as well. Raise your hand if you really have ever stoned a homosexual.

Anybody?

Anybody?

 

[DivineRAiN]

genez: I have learned over the years that there are some people that have a natural affinity for gays, and they are not gay. They are not the norm, though. If they were? We would not be having this debate. Would we? So how do you represent most people?

I don't. What I've learned over the years is that most ppl are driven by ego.. well the need to feel as if they are above the next person, the desire for some kind of authority over the next person so they can dictate what that person can n cannot do and to deny things like rights, and so on. Today it's gay people, maybe tomorrow we'll go back n terrorize the native americans. It's been a while. At one time it was the norm to discriminate against black ppl.. maybe next week we'll give it another go.
Most ppl and their "norm".. aren't satisfied unless they are making someone else's life miserable. But I'm probably wrong.

 

[treblebass]

genez: I have learned over the years that there are some people that have a natural affinity for gays, and they are not gay. They are not the norm, though. If they were? We would not be having this debate. Would we? So how do you represent most people?

I don't. What I've learned over the years is that most ppl are driven by ego.. well the need to feel as if they are above the next person, the desire for some kind of authority over the next person so they can dictate what that person can n cannot do and to deny things like rights, and so on. Today it's gay people, maybe tomorrow we'll go back n terrorize the native americans. It's been a while. At one time it was the norm to discriminate against black ppl.. maybe next week we'll give it another go.
Most ppl and their "norm".. aren't satisfied unless they are making someone else's life miserable. But I'm probably wrong.

TOO TRUE...

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

genez: I have learned over the years that there are some people that have a natural affinity for gays, and they are not gay. They are not the norm, though. If they were? We would not be having this debate. Would we? So how do you represent most people?

I don't. What I've learned over the years is that most ppl are driven by ego.. well the need to feel as if they are above the next person, the desire for some kind of authority over the next person so they can dictate what that person can n cannot do and to deny things like rights, and so on. Today it's gay people, maybe tomorrow we'll go back n terrorize the native americans. It's been a while. At one time it was the norm to discriminate against black ppl.. maybe next week we'll give it another go.
Most ppl and their "norm".. aren't satisfied unless they are making someone else's life miserable. But I'm probably wrong.

Amen. remember at one time Blacks could not marry whites. Many "Christians in certain areas of the Country used scripture to back that up. They also used scripture when they practiced genocide against the native americans. They also used scripture when the forbade Woman the right to Vote. And if you disagree with them you are of Satan and a persecutor of Christians. Even though you may be a Christian.