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Why are they gay?
- Thread starter crazymichael
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Why do so many Christians lie about homosexuality and homosexuals?
Paul Cameron, James Dobson, Timothy Dailey, John Diggs, and so on…I would imagine the motive to lie is the same for all including the interviewee in the link you provided.
Attention.
Money for “testimony”
Advancement of a personal/political agenda.
I could think of a dozen or so more reasons why he would lie.
Do you take the “testimony” of individuals kidnapped by aliens form dark country roads as proof positive that UFO’s exist?
I would accept that no more than any one else’s unverified claims. And with the same level of confidence as testimony form someone claiming to have been married to Bigfoot
The question remains if there really are that many “ex-gays” out there why is it the only people researchers can find who will actually claim to have changed their sexual oriention form fully homosexual to fully heterosexual are individuals actively employed by various ex-gay ministries…that is people paid to say that they are ex-gay?
Worse…these individuals have a nasty habit of later figuring out that lying about their “change” is morally wrong and recant their “testimony”.
The fact remains there is the same level of evidence for the existence of extraterrestrials as there is that people can change their sexual oriention.
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Homosexuality is no more a genetic “disorder than being left handed or being black
Actually ALL the evidence points to sexual oriention being an inborn trait
Here are just a small number of studies published in peer reviewed journals showing homosexuality is an inborn trait.
Lyons MJ. A twin study of sexual behavior in men. Arch Sex Behav. 2004 Apr;33(2):129-36.
Quinsey, VL. The etiology of anomalous sexual preferences in men.Ann N Y Acad Sci. 2003 Jun;989:105-17; discussion 144-53.
Anderson JP. Predicting demographic group structures based on DNA sequence data.
Mol Biol Evol. 2003 Jul;20(7):1168-80. Epub 2003 May 30.
Dewar, CS. An association between male homosexuality and reproductive success.
Med Hypotheses. 2003 Feb;60(2):225-32.
SwaabDF, Chung WC. Sexual differentiation of the human hypothalamus. Adv Exp Med Biol. 2002;511:75-100; discussion 100-5.
Coolidge FL, Thede LL. The heritability of gender identity disorder in a child and adolescent twin sample. Behav Genet. 2002 Jul;32(4):251-7.
Cantor JM. How many gay men owe their sexual orientation to fraternal birth order? Arch Sex Behav. 2002 Feb;31(1):63-71.
Hall, J. A. Y. and D. Kimura, “Dermatoglyphic Asymmetry and Sexual Orientation in Men,” Behavioral Neuroscience 108 (1994): 1203-1206.
Swaab, . F. A Sex Difference in the Human Brain and its Relation to Homosexuality. NATURE, 378: 68-70 (1995)
Simon LeVay (1991). A Differnece in Hypothalmic Structure Between Hetersexual and Homoseuxal Men. Science, vol. 253, pp. 1034-1037.
Simon LeVay & Dean H. Hamer (May 1994). Evidnece for a Biological Influence in Male Homosexuality.. Scientific American, vol. 270, pp. 44-49
Bailey, J. M., & Pillard, R. C. (1991). A genetic study of male sexual orientation. Archives of General Psychiatry, 48, 1089-1096
Bailey, J. M., Pillard, R. C., Neale, M. C., & Agyei, Y. (1993). Heritable factors influence sexual orientation in women. Archives of General Psychiatry, 50, 217-223.
Dean Hamer et al, "A Linkage Between DNA Markers on the X Chromosome and Male Sexual Orientation" Science 261 (1993-JUL-16): pp 321-27.
Witelson, S. Functional cerebral asymmetry in homosexual men and women. Behavioral Neuroscience, 1994, 108, 525-531
Rahman, Q. "Sexual Orientation Related Differences in Prepulse Inhibition of the Human Startle Response" Behavioral Neuroscience magazine, 2003-OCT,
Drosophila.Lee G, Hall Abnormalities of male-specific FRU protein and serotonin expression in the CNS of fruitless mutants in JC. Journal of Neuroscience 2001 Jan 15;21(2):513-26
Bailey JM, Dunne MP, Martin NG. J Pers, Genetic and environmental influences on sexual orientation and its correlates in an Australian twin sample. Social Psycholgy 2000 Mar;78(3):524-36
Dawood K, Pillard RC, Horvath C, Revelle W, Bailey JM. Familial aspects of male homosexuality. Archives of Sexual Behavior 2000 Apr;29(2):155-63
Miller EM. Homosexuality, birth order, and evolution: toward an equilibrium reproductive economics of homosexuality. Archives of Sexual Behavior 2000 Feb;29(1):1-34
Yamamoto D, Nakano Y Cell Mol Sexual behavior mutants revisited: molecular and cellular basis of Drosophila mating. Life Science 1999 Nov 15;56(7-8):634-46
Lloyd VK, Sinclair DA, Alperyn M, Grigliatti TA. Enhancer of garnet/deltaAP-3 is a cryptic allele of the white gene andidentifies the intracellular transport system for the white protein. Genome. 2002 Apr;45(2):296-312.
SJ Robinson, JT Manning “The ratio of 2nd to the 4th digit length and male homosexuality. Evolution and Human Behavior, 2000
William J. Turner Comments on discordant monozygotic twinning in homosexuality Archives of Sexual BehaviorVolume 23, Number 1 Feb. 1994 115-119
J. M. Bailey and R. C. Pillard A genetic study of male sexual orientation Arch GenPsych Vol. 48 No. 12, December 1991
QuinseyThe Etiology of Anomalous Sexual Preferences in Men Annals NYAS 2003;989:105-117.
Friedman and Downey N Engl J Med 1994;331:923-930.
Jim McKnight and Jim Malcolm Is male homosexuality maternally linked?Psychology, Evolution & Gender Volume 2, Number 3 / December 1, 2000
McFadden and PasanenComparison of the auditory systems of heterosexuals and homosexuals: Click-evoked otoacoustic emissions Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. U. S. A. 1998;95:2709-2713.
Kallmann, FJ. Comparative twin study on the genetic aspects of male homosexuality. Journal of Sexual behavior2002 Apr;115(4):283-97.
Dorner G. Poppe I. Stahl F. Kolzsch J. Uebelhack R. Gene- and environment-dependent neuroendocrine etiogenesis of homosexuality and transsexualism. Experemental Clinical Endocrinology 1991;98(2):141-50.
Zeh JA and Zeh DW.Maternal inheritance. Trends Genet. 2005 May;21(5):281-6
King M. Family size in white gay and heterosexual men. Arch Sex Behav. 2005 Feb;34(1):117-22.
Swaab, DF. Sexual differentiation of the human brain: relevance for gender identity, transsexualism and sexual orientation. Gynecol Endocrinol. 2004 Dec;19(6):301-12.
Klar AJ. Excess of counterclockwise scalp hair-whorl rotation in homosexual men.
J Genet. 2004 Dec;83(3):251-5.
Camperio-Ciani A, COrna, F. Capiluppi, C. Evidence for maternally inherited factors favouring male homosexuality and promoting female fecundity. Proc Biol Sci. 2004 Nov 7;271(1554):2217-21.
R Blanchard and AF Bogaert Homosexuality in men and number of older brothers Am J Psychiatry 1996; 153:27-31
Kirk KM. Measurement models for sexual orientation in a community twin sample. Behav Genet. 2000 Jul;30(4):345-56.
Kendler KS, Thornton, LM, Gilman SE, Kessler RC. Sexual orientation in a U.S. national sample of twin and nontwin sibling pairs. Am J Psychiatry. 2000 Nov;157(11):1843-6.
Dawood, K. Pillard, RC Horvath, C. Revelle W. Familial aspects of male homosexuality. Arch Sex Behav. 2000 Apr;29(2):155-63.
Haslam, N. Genetic evaluation of male homosexuality Orv Hetil. 1998 Feb 1;139(5):247-9
Blanchard R. Additive effects of older brothers and homosexual brothers in the prediction of marriage and cohabitation. Behav Genet. 1997 Jan;27(1):45-54.
Yamamotot D. Ito, H, Fujitani K. Genetic dissection of sexual orientation: behavioral, cellular, and molecular approaches in Drosophila melanogaster. Neurosci Res. 1996 Oct;26(2):95-107. Review.
Wood, EC Evolutions of an orientation concerning the nature of the male homosexualities. Am J Psychoanal. 1995 Jun;55(2):103-20; discussion 121-7.
Holtzen DW. Handedness and sexual orientation. J Clin Exp Neuropsychol. 1994 Oct;16(5):702-12.
Baron M. Genetic linkage and male homosexual orientation. BMJ. 1993 Aug 7;307(6900):337-8.
Nealee, JM Agyei J. Heritable factors influence sexual orientation in women.
Arch Gen Psychiatry. 1993 Mar;50(3):217-23.
Friedman RC Downey j. Neurobiology and sexual orientation: current relationships. J Neuropsychiatry Clin Neurosci. 1993 Spring;5(2):131-53.
King M. McDonad E. Homosexuals who are twins. A study of 46 probands.
Br J Psychiatry. 1992 Mar;160:407-9.
Buhrich N. Bailey JM. Sexual orientation, sexual identity, and sex-dimorphic behaviors in male twins. Behav Genet. 1991 Jan;21(1):75-96.
Dormer G. Poppe I., Stahl F. Kolzsch J. Uebelhack R. Gene- and environment-dependent neuroendocrine etiogenesis of homosexuality and transsexualism. Exp Clin Endocrinol. 1991;98(2):141-50.
Allen LS, Gorski RA. Sexual orientation and the size of the anterior commissure in the human brain. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1992 August 1; 89(15): 7199–7202.
Bailey JM, Pillard, RC, Neale MC & Agyei, Y. Heritable factors influence sexual orientation in women. Arch Gen Psychiatry 1993 Mar;50(3):217-23.
Ellis, L. Ames MA. Neurohormonal functioning and sexual orientation Psychological Bulletin 1987 Mar;101(2):233-58.
Daem DR, Byron KA. Alpha 1-antitrypsin phenotypes in homosexual men.Pathology. 1989 Apr;21(2):91-2.
Richard Schmiechen Changing Our Minds: The Story of Dr. Evelyn Hooker. Simon & Schuster 1995
Just a small sample of the thousands of scientific studies published in peer reviewed journals showing a biological origin for sexual orientation.
As noted there exists no, REPEAT NO, single bit of equivalent evidence that homosexuality is somehow a choice, the result of choice. No evidence that homosexuality is the result of one’s relationship with either parent, that homosexuality is the result of a distant or absent father. No evidence that homosexuality is the result of family structure. No evidence that homosexuality is the result of any psychological sociological, or familial factor.
if you know of such evidence please share it with the rest of us.
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On the one hand you claim scientific evidence that homosexuality does not exist but then you go on to say that you feel free to dismiss any scientific evidence that does not conform to your personal world view. So you are free to ask for evidence knowing you can dismiss any and all evidence that you dont actually want to see. Meaning since no evidence that you are willing to accept appears you can then claim you were right all along.
The bible also talks about honesty and about prejudice.
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ReformedChapin
Chapin = Guatemalan
Please stop wasting our time, if you don't have the article here that can be reviewed it means nothing. I can post a bunch of titles here that are meaningless.
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Are you often annoyed when other people think for themselves?No, we are not getting caustic and losing our focus. That is your desired goal by the way you resist what you are being told. But, I have seen this for too long to be bothered with being caustic and wasting anger in losing my focus. I see the pro-gay approach as a tactic and strategy to get those who oppose them to become caustic and to lose focus. Not here.
Dont forget those nasty uncomfortable facts
As anyone with an addiction will tell you you dont ever stop being an addict no matter how much you pray. They may no longer consume/abuse their substance(es) of choice but they will always remain an adict
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Ah so you finally admit you dont have any actual evidence to back up your various claims .
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So does God not care if someone is homosexual……or does God desire people to be heterosexual?
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Will you actually read and consider them or will you dismiss them out of hand because what they show does not conform to your personal world view?
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ReformedChapin
Chapin = Guatemalan
Unless God likes to play cruel jokes on people, I don't see any logical reason why he would make any individual gay when he could have just made them the opposite sex.So does God not care if someone is homosexual or does God desire people to be heterosexual?
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You may have noted this was said in direct response to ganzs declaration .. and pretty much tosses that declaration into the trash can.
So if sexual oriention is in born (as all evidence says it is) and if God could have could have made gays str8 then it would seem that God is not the one with gays.
Similarly if God can transform a homosexual into a heterosexual. (and he should be able to because he is God after all) but he doesnt seem to be doing this as expressed by the abyssiamal failure rate of such things as reparative therapy and ex-gay organizations like Exodus. Leaving the question to be if God wants people to be heterosexual why isnt he doing something about it?
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GenemZ
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You just judged me? Then speak of the no judgement factor? Caustic? Who? You?
Why is it unreliable? Mind letting us know? You think someone sat down and made that up???
All day? You really think I'm that resourceful?
Thanks! Grace and peace, GeneZ
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wmc1982
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I read in a psychology book that it was because they were sexually immature and clinged to their mothers and viewed all other females in a non-sexual way. It wasn't a Christian book either.
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GenemZ
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Homosexuals are no different than the many straight believers. Most believers fail to find and do God's will for their lives. With homosexuals, its only more obvious when they fail. Because they can not hide and sublimate like a straight can.
In the following passage Jesus was speaking to those who were already saved. It was addressed to them.
Matthew 7:13-15 (New International Version)
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves."
Most will not find the transformation that is the fullness of Christ. They will get saved. Become stunned to realize that salvation and Christ are real. Make some changes. But when it comes to learning God's Word? They will then turn after what appeals to them personally. "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves."
Only those who deny self (put personal preferences aside in the face of truth presented objectively). And, take up their cross (refuse to react with frustration when life become unpleasant by means of God's prearranged circumstances to test us, to mold us. And follow Him (He is the Word)..... in the power of the Spirit. These will find life more abundantly in this lifetime.
" But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
FEW FIND IT.
Out of all the straights who believe? Few find it. Out of all the gays who believe? Few find it. They are saved. But, they refused to live the true life in Christ that transforms. Instead, they sublimate and seek out teachings that appeal to what appeals to them in their flesh. They love to hear about forgiveness and the Cross. But, they refuse their cross, and use the Cross as the means to appease their guilt. Most refuse what is needed to become transformed. They want God on their terms. As how they see God, if they were God.
2 Timothy 4:3 niv
"For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."
Gays find churches that will be sympathetic and will glorify their sin in the name of Christ. Those who love to condemn others will find churches that promote law. Those who are naturally altruistic will seek out a congregation that is into good works and a social gospel. The list goes on, and on. For Jesus said the way to destruction is "broad and wide." Greatly diversified in emphasis. "For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."
The way that leads to life is under pressure (resistence from the demonic realm, cosmic believers, and the world. Its 'strait." That is old English for "strict." The way that leads to life is strict. No allowance for serious wavering into false concepts. It requires sound interpretation of Scripture.
God will raise up a few who are qualified to teach on such a level. And, a few will find them. Most believers will not put up with sound doctrine.
2 Timothy 4:3 niv
"For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."
"For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."
If ritual and ceremony appeals to you? Then that is what you will seek in a Church. But? If you deny self and take up your cross? You will reject such a church when the Word of God exposes it to you. Many refuse. Many want what is their fantasy church, and refuse what God wants for them.
So? Its just not that a majority of gays fail to be transformed. A majority of straights do as well. Its just that the straights are more sociably acceptable in society and can more easily hide (and live in denial) of having failed to do God's will.
With gays they can not deny they have not been transformed. Its always before those who reject God's will that they are not finding what is needed. But, they too, seek out churches to help them feel justified and keep their self esteem intact. Its all worldly Christianity. Straight or gay.
Philippians 3:17-19
"Join with others in following my example, brothers, and take note of those who live according to the pattern we gave you. For, as I have often told you before and now say again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their destiny is destruction, their god is their emotions, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things."
Grace and truth, GeneZ"Join with others in following my example, brothers, and take note of those who live according to the pattern we gave you. For, as I have often told you before and now say again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their destiny is destruction, their god is their emotions, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things."
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EnemyPartyII
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Newguy, I though Hunterrose's list of articles was quite comprehensive and impressive. However, since you want something you can link to
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6519
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/biology/b103/f97/projects97/Newman.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3735668.stm
http://www.oasismag.com/node/view/6260
http://www.skeptictank.org/gaygene.htm
http://allpsych.com/journal/homosexuality.html
Just a few articles that explain some of the leading theory regarding homosexual genetics. The short version, is that while some homosexuality is clearly a case of nurture, environment or trauma related, there is also a vast amount of evidence to suggest that there is a "gay gene", carried by some women, which serves to enhance their fertility, but results in homosexuality when passed to male offspring.
I have tried to cite articles with no obvious bias one way or the other. I hope this enough to convince you that there IS a significant body of scientific evidence to support the theory that homosexuality can be a result of nature, as well as nurture, and therefore to think of it in terms of "choice" is, at the very least, one sided.
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6519
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/biology/b103/f97/projects97/Newman.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3735668.stm
http://www.oasismag.com/node/view/6260
http://www.skeptictank.org/gaygene.htm
http://allpsych.com/journal/homosexuality.html
Just a few articles that explain some of the leading theory regarding homosexual genetics. The short version, is that while some homosexuality is clearly a case of nurture, environment or trauma related, there is also a vast amount of evidence to suggest that there is a "gay gene", carried by some women, which serves to enhance their fertility, but results in homosexuality when passed to male offspring.
I have tried to cite articles with no obvious bias one way or the other. I hope this enough to convince you that there IS a significant body of scientific evidence to support the theory that homosexuality can be a result of nature, as well as nurture, and therefore to think of it in terms of "choice" is, at the very least, one sided.
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EnemyPartyII
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Which brings up the whole "are the sins of the father visited upon the son" debate.
either way, it effectively removes choice from the gay person, as they clearly have no say over what their parents have done before they were born. Although, might I add, I don't see how it necessarily follows that having a gay child is a "punishment"
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well aside from the point, that debate of sins from father is answered as no,
ezekiel 18
just adding to what should be a dead thread, does God cause all things to happen? such as rape, and if you say homosexuality is a born thing, does God ordain that to happen? or is it the factor that the world we live in so far fallen that there are terrible things happening in this world (not saying that homosexuality is one of them) and not all things that happen are what God wanted to happen but are a part of His will? hmm anyway i dont see the point in these arguements as we are all just talking out of our own wisdom which i find funny as i have never met a wise person in my life and am still looking. so yeah thats all.
ezekiel 18
just adding to what should be a dead thread, does God cause all things to happen? such as rape, and if you say homosexuality is a born thing, does God ordain that to happen? or is it the factor that the world we live in so far fallen that there are terrible things happening in this world (not saying that homosexuality is one of them) and not all things that happen are what God wanted to happen but are a part of His will? hmm anyway i dont see the point in these arguements as we are all just talking out of our own wisdom which i find funny as i have never met a wise person in my life and am still looking. so yeah thats all.
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EnemyPartyII
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they are gay because they like men.
Uhuh... most people "like" men. I assume you mean "attracted" to men.
What about gay women?
Or is this another example of barely supressed male terror of forceful sodomy... which I think contributes vastly more to people's REAL feelings on this matter than any Biblical verse, otherwise gay women would be equally represented by people making simplistic statements, don't you think?
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