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Why are there still apes?

Hans Blaster

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Cro-magnon is just a name for humans that lived some 10,000 years ago. They were essentially the same as us.

Specifically, the were the modern humans sheltering in the south of Europe from the glaciers of the last glacial maximum. They are the immediate progenitors of the base European population before other migrations inward from the Steppe and the middle east.
 
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Tone

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."
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Good grief. This is the weirdest description of the Gospel I've ever heard.

I've already said that my positions on the ToE and the Gospels were not connected. Why do you keep refusing to see this. It's a simple claim that doesn't require any analysis. Just a simple claim I made about myself.

Diff between Christianity and the Bible. Yeah. I know this. It's not like I ever read the bible at all. At least beyond the weeks readings.

How do I know I didn't view the Gospel from a "ToE view"? That's easy-- I didn't think about evolution in church or the gospels outside church.


I'm just curious as to how you can compartmentalize everything, that's all.

*I guess it comes with scientific training.
 
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AV1611VET

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In order to believe in your 'embedded age' idea, you would have to assume this verse to be false.
Even YECs would disagree with you.

They know what that passage is saying, as do I.
 
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Tone

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Good grief. This is the weirdest description of the Gospel I've ever heard.

Genesis 3:15
"and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

This is called the "first gospel" (proto-evangelium).

The Messiah is the fulfillment of that.
 
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Hans Blaster

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I'm just curious as to how you can compartmentalize everything, that's all.

*I guess it comes with scientific training.

It keeps down the cognative dissonance. I suspect that is how most scientists remain religious.

(It also helps to be uninterested in religion, even when you practice one.)
 
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Hans Blaster

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Genesis 3:15
"and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

This is called the "first gospel" (proto-evangelium).

The Messiah is the fulfillment of that.

This notion is unfamiliar to me. Don't recall hearing it before.
 
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Hans Blaster

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And that comes around, what once every three years in the cycle of readings? Then who knows if the priest will discuss it in the homily or if it's time for another homily on the evils of abortion or birth control.
 
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Tone

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This notion is unfamiliar to me. Don't recall hearing it before.

Yeah, the principle of the seed is woven throughout Scripture, from Genesis to Revelation:

12:17
"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

There are some who believe that the serpent's seed has to do with tainted DNA.

Whatever the case, when one is born from above (born again), they become a new creature.

If it is the case that fallen man is imprisoned by the process of Evolution, we believers may rejoice all the more that we have escaped such corruption for we are of the seed of the woman.

*1Corinthians 15:53
"For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."
 
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Hans Blaster

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Hans Blaster

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Yeah, the principle of the seed is woven throughout Scripture, from Genesis to Revelation:

12:17
"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

There are some who believe that the serpent's seed has to do with tainted DNA.

Whatever, the case, when one is born from above (born again), they become a new creature.

If it is the case that fallen man is imprisoned by the process of Evolution, we believers may rejoice all the more that we have escaped such corruption for we are of the seed of the woman.

*1Corinthians 15:53
"For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

Well, God is in heaven
And we all want what's his
But power and greed and corruptible seed
Seem to be all that there is

--Bob Dylan
 
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Tone

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Well, God is in heaven
And we all want what's his
But power and greed and corruptible seed
Seem to be all that there is

--Bob Dylan

Yes, it would seem that science says so.

*And Bob...

**
1 Peter 1:23
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever."
 
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James A

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How, as in "How is the Cambrian explosion a thorn in the flesh for Evolutionists?".

Darwin raised this concern about Cambrian Explosion that it was not enough time for phyla (body type) of all modern organism to appear and, more importantly, without evolutionary ancestors.

500 million years is a long time with a lot of generations, I don't see why it isn't long enough. Do you have a justification aside from personal incredulity?

Let us do some math. If the Planet currently has 8.7 million species after 99.9 % are extinct, there certainly has been thousands of millions of species in a relatively short period of 500 million years. Natural agents could not have caused such complex changes so, it was either Creation of Theistic Evolution.


Darwin worked almost 200 years ago... a lot of evidence has been found and research done since then.

If you missed this, I referred to Darwin for his concerns about Cambrian explosion. I have read about modern day Biologists trying to explain the sudden appearance of organisms during the late Cambrian period so, Darwin's concern is still valid.

We know how mutations work, stating after the fact that the end result with all its missteps and dead ends was all a part of a plan all along seems unjustified

Imagine us found a multi story house, fully furnished and has electricity, water, internet etc. It takes just common sense to conclude that there was a (intelligent) design and designer behind the house. No one in their right mind would argue that some un planned, unintelligent agents built the house - say floods brought the raw materials, tornado and thunderstorms did the construction etc.

Species are million times more complex than the house
and arguing that some "environmental changes" or " survival of the fittest" is the cause of the diversification makes little sense.

Ever wondered why Evolutionists refused to explain the origin of life?
 
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James A

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That depends on the 'agents' ; all kinds of natural processes can interact to produce well-defined cumulative results without the need for intelligence, plans, or designs.

Do you have examples were some natural, unplanned agents worked in accord toward a well defined, cumulative result? Stalactites and stalagmites in some caves is the most complex thing I can think about and that does not even come close to the appearance of species.

Were it some natural agents that caused the origin of life?
 
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James A

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No matter what the evidence or lack of evidence means, it will always be (mis) interpreted [by creationists] to prove the hypothesis they already assumed true - that hundreds of millions of well-defined species [were created in one week].

A well defined, cumulative product posits design so, Creation or Theistic evolution is the default explanation of the diversification of the life.

About Genesis

1) Primary audience of Genesis was the people who lived thousands of years ago. Lord might have used metaphors and some popular tales to educate them but the book states in unambiguous terms that God is the creator of the physical Universe and its life.

2) God, having no matter or form, is pure act so, "day" in Genesis means "action". The creation was a seven action process (Bible uses the number seven to denote completion).

3) Many theologians believe that there could be gap of hundreds of millions of years between the actions.

Is the theory of Evolution falsifiable?

It is not the chemical equation that falls in love. It is the results of all those equations: a human being. Humans transcend the series of chemical reactions at the lowest level of their existence.

Let me rephrase what I said in the previous post. Living organisms especially, humans, posses properties that cannot be explained physically so, it must be an intelligent, metaphysical being which caused it.

Because our DNA has built humans in such a way that this is what we do.

Humans posses some unique properties like consciousness, free will etc. so the question is "what" caused the DNA to mutate - some sort of unintelligent environmental changes or an i(I)ntelligent agent?

Taking a step back, how did DNA originate?
 
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Shemjaza

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Darwin raised this concern about Cambrian Explosion that it was not enough time for phyla (body type) of all modern organism to appear and, more importantly, without evolutionary ancestors.
People have explained that we have limited (not zero) evidence of evolutionary ancestors because the kinds of life that evidently did exist are very unlikely to leave fossils.

I think using the phrase "body type" as a description of phyla is misleading in general conversation. Given that a significant phyla chordata includes both humans and sea squirts.

Let us do some math. If the Planet currently has 8.7 million species after 99.9 % are extinct, there certainly has been thousands of millions of species in a relatively short period of 500 million years. Natural agents could not have caused such complex changes so, it was either Creation of Theistic Evolution.
I'm not seeing a chain of reasoning or justification. Why can't natural agents have caused such complex changes?

You can't just say "Let us do some math" then just declare yourself to be right because big numbers give you strong feelings of conviction.

If you missed this, I referred to Darwin for his concerns about Cambrian explosion. I have read about modern day Biologists trying to explain the sudden appearance of organisms during the late Cambrian period so, Darwin's concern is still valid.
The Cambrian explosion is a unique period of history... so obviously biologists would try to explain it... that's what scientists do, they look for explanations for evidence. They also have a whole lot more evidence available than Darwin did and so their explanations are more justified.

Without a time machine you never know for sure about the past... but you can make reasonable inferences based on evidence.

Imagine us found a multi story house, fully furnished and has electricity, water, internet etc. It takes just common sense to conclude that there was a (intelligent) design and designer behind the house. No one in their right mind would argue that some un planned, unintelligent agents built the house - say floods brought the raw materials, tornado and thunderstorms did the construction etc.
Flawed analogy. I know how houses are built, I've seen it. Houses don't breed, they don't grow on their own, we don't have billions of years of evidence of them existing and changing.

Also we see life doing exactly that, just absorbing lifeless material from nature, using exactly the same chemical processes found in non life.

Species are million times more complex than the house
and arguing that some "environmental changes" or " survival of the fittest" is the cause of the diversification makes little sense.

Except we've seen it again and again. Mutations create new variation and that variation can have a statistical increased chance of successful reproduction.

Then if the population is split then the variations can build up in different ways... presto, diversification.

Ever wondered why Evolutionists refused to explain the origin of life?
Because we don't know?
(And may never know).

Life is made up of complex organic chemicals...
Complex organic chemicals can spontaneously form from simple organic chemicals...
The kind of simple organic chemical that make up the complex chemicals of life exist all over the universe...

So we don't know the exact origin of life on Earth... but proposing the polymerisation of naturally occurring amino acids is hardly invoking magic.
 
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Jimmy D

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Darwin raised this concern about Cambrian Explosion that it was not enough time for phyla (body type) of all modern organism to appear and, more importantly, without evolutionary ancestors.

A. No he didn't.
B. So what if he did (which he didn't). We do not cling dogmatically to Victorian science.

Let us do some math. If the Planet currently has 8.7 million species after 99.9 % are extinct, there certainly has been thousands of millions of species in a relatively short period of 500 million years. Natural agents could not have caused such complex changes so, it was either Creation of Theistic Evolution.

Why couldn't they? Your personal incredulity is irrelevant.

If you missed this, I referred to Darwin for his concerns about Cambrian explosion. I have read about modern day Biologists trying to explain the sudden appearance of organisms during the late Cambrian period so, Darwin's concern is still valid.

That makes no sense, no one claims that we know everything about that time period. I don't accept that modern biologists or paleontologists find the Cambrian to be particularly problematic.

I think you need to read what Darwin actually said about the Cambrian period.

Imagine us found a multi story house, fully furnished and has electricity, water, internet etc. It takes just common sense to conclude that there was a (intelligent) design and designer behind the house. No one in their right mind would argue that some un planned, unintelligent agents built the house - say floods brought the raw materials, tornado and thunderstorms did the construction etc.

Species are million times more complex than the house
and arguing that some "environmental changes" or " survival of the fittest" is the cause of the diversification makes little sense.

I would conclude that humans designed and built the house, because there is evidence that that is where houses come from. If you look hard enough you can observe houses in various stages of construction and watch as they develop.

Ditto for the diversification of species. We have an understanding of how descent with modification works, we can see how species have changed in the fossil record, we can observe how the process work in the lab and the field. It's not as if we have to make wild guesses anymore.

Ever wondered why Evolutionists refused to explain the origin of life?

No, I haven't. I have seen many scientists coming up with hypothesis' that attempt to explain it though. The fact is that no or little evidence remains for obvious reasons, you can claim supernatural origins if you like, no one can say that you are wrong, it has zero impact on the Theory of evolution though, life has been diversifying by known mechanisms since it's inception, whatever that was.
 
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Jimmy D

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A well defined, cumulative product posits design so, Creation or Theistic evolution is the default explanation of the diversification of the life.

Maybe it was a thousand years ago, we now have observation and evidence that suggests otherwise. We have zero evidence for supernatural intervention, only incredulity from religious types based on their many different interpretations of the bible.

About Genesis

1) Primary audience of Genesis was the people who lived thousands of years ago. Lord might have used metaphors and some popular tales to educate them but the book states in unambiguous terms that God is the creator of the physical Universe and its life.

2) God, having no matter or form, is pure act so, "day" in Genesis means "action". The creation was a seven action process (Bible uses the number seven to denote completion).

3) Many theologians believe that there could be gap of hundreds of millions of years between the actions.

Yes, it's poetic and open to many wildly varying interpretations. Pretty unhelpful really, we don't even know who wrote it or what it's based on. Why anyone would let such a document influence their understanding of science is beyond me. Do we really think the female sex about came from a man's rib? That the sky is a vault separating us from the waters above?

Let me rephrase what I said in the previous post. Living organisms especially, humans, posses properties that cannot be explained physically so, it must be an intelligent, metaphysical being which caused it.

Humans posses some unique properties like consciousness, free will etc. so the question is "what" caused the DNA to mutate - some sort of unintelligent environmental changes or an i(I)ntelligent agent?

The things that you mention are products of our complex brains I would think, although I'm no expert.

You can try and focus of things that haven't been adequately explained all you like. Gaps in our understanding of the natural world won't make the theory of evolution any less correct.

so the question is "what" caused the DNA to mutate - some sort of unintelligent environmental changes or an i(I)ntelligent agent?

Maybe this will help. What did you think? An invisible supernatural fellow appears and tinkers at the genetic level every time reproduction occurs? It's possible I suppose.

Taking a step back, how did DNA originate?

I don't know.
 
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