Why are there so many atheists on a Christian site?

talquin · May 11, 2015

Colter said:
On this first experiential world created by God, atheist claim there is no God. That puts them at odds with reality, ultimatly unreal for there is no salvageable soul growing within them.

Earlier, you said:

* Atheist can be very dense people, I'm not saying that God is "readily apparent" but everything we know is from God, for "in him we live, move and have our being" but spirit perception is something one has to want.

If everything you know if from God, then if you know God, then God must be from God. So either God is from God or you don't know God. Which is it?

By the way, atheists don't necessarily claim there is no god. There is a definition for those who don't hold the belief that a god exists. It's atheist. And such a person doesn't need to claim that there is no god. For example, newborn babies don't hold the belief that there is a god but certainly don't claim that there is no god.

And there's nothing about the beliefs or lack of beliefs of an atheist which put them at odds with reality. What about a newborn baby who doesn't hold the belief that a god exists. What about such a person puts him at odds with reality?

bhsmte · May 11, 2015

Joshua260 said:
I just want to know if you believe the existence of evil is incompatible with the existence of the Christian god? Can't you answer plainly?

The existence of the type of evil we see in our world, does not jive with a God who loves all of his creation.

And evil, is just one small piece that makes the Christian story one that I can not reconcile with reality.

Joshua260 · May 11, 2015

talquin said:
It's a very valid argument. As a matter of fact, the problem of evil provides proof that an all-loving, all-powerful and all-knowing god does NOT exist.

Of course, I disagree for several reasons. But I noticed that it didn't take long to find an atheist who makes a knowledge claim that God does not exist.

Are you seeing this bhsmte?

But I'm curious talquin, are you one of those "gnostic atheists" who is asserting that you KNOW that God does not exist? Or do you just believe that God does not exist?

TillICollapse · May 11, 2015

Joshua260 said:
Of course, I disagree for several reasons. But I noticed that it didn't take long to find an atheist who makes a knowledge claim that God does not exist.

Are you seeing this bhsmte?

But I'm curious talquin, are you one of those "gnostic atheists" who is asserting that you KNOW that God does not exist? Or do you just believe that God does not exist?

Maybe I'm missing something.

Someone saying that an all-powerful and all-loving God cannot exist while evil exists in the world as well, is not the same as saying "God" can't exist. It's saying a specific type of God can't exist: one with those qualities.

Joshua260 · May 11, 2015

bhsmte said:
The existence of the type of evil we see in our world, does not jive with a God who loves all of his creation.

And evil, is just one small piece that makes the Christian story one that I can not reconcile with reality.

so you happen to be one of these?

"Atheists claim there is no God? Well, very few atheists make this claim..."

So which is it? Do you believe there is no God, or is it even possible that evil and God could exist in the same world?

KWCrazy · May 11, 2015

talquin said:
It's a very valid argument. As a matter of fact, the problem of evil provides proof that an all-loving, all-powerful and all-knowing god does NOT exist.

Not in the least.
Does light exist? Certainly.
Can light make a dark room bright? Certainly.
Can you add darkness to the room? No.
Why not?
There is no darkness, only the absence of light. The further one removes himself from the light, the more the light fades into darkness.
Evil is removal from the presence of God. Lucifer and his angels did that and they were cast out of Heaven. As the absence of any light is pure darkness, the absence of any goodness is pure evil.

Man was created in the light with free will to chose who he would serve, In his arrogance, man chose to have the knowledge of good and evil. With such knowledge is the consequence of choices. The wages of sin are death, and so with the man's sin death and corruption entered into the world.

This world, however, is unimportant. It's a temporary stop in an eternal journey. Whether we live in the light or in darkness depends on whether we embrace or reject the Lord. You can't curse your light for darkness. Blame instead the obstructions between you and the light which have your world in darkness. Remove the obstruction and you'll see the light.

Joshua260 · May 11, 2015

TillICollapse said:
Maybe I'm missing something.

Someone saying that an all-powerful and all-loving God cannot exist while evil exists in the world as well, is not the same as saying "God" can't exist. It's saying a specific type of God can't exist: one with those qualities.

To clarify again, as I did for hammer of Thor, I believe this recent exchange (between Colter and bhsmte) happens to be concerning, not just any ole god, but specifically the Christian God.

So to you then. Do you believe that the existence of evil is incompatible with the existence of the Christian god?

bhsmte · May 11, 2015

Joshua260 said:
so you happen to be one of these?

"Atheists claim there is no God? Well, very few atheists make this claim..."

So which is it? Do you believe there is no God, or is it even possible that evil and God could exist in the same world?

Sure it's possible, but it doesn't fit the Christian description of God and makes that God highly unlikely.

Of course, the fact that a God would require everyone believe that his son Jesus was God and one must believe Jesus was God to avoid eternal torment, also creates a problem of a loving God. If this requirement is part of Christianity, why wouldn't Jesus of had equal exposure to everyone in the world, to give all the same opportunity to believe in him? Instead, Jesus was only exposed to a very small group and everyone else is left to fend for themselves. Doesn't sound like a loving God who cares about all his creation, to manufacture such inequality in being exposed to the only way to be saved.

2/3 of the worlds population is doomed according to this theology and sorry, if that God exists, it does not match the Christian description of that God loving and caring for his creation.

For those that can reconcile the Christian story with reality, so be it, I can't.

talquin · May 11, 2015

Joshua260 said:
Of course, I disagree for several reasons. But I noticed that it didn't take long to find an atheist who makes a knowledge claim that God does not exist.

Are you seeing this bhsmte?

But I'm curious talquin, are you one of those "gnostic atheists" who is asserting that you KNOW that God does not exist? Or do you just believe that God does not exist?

With respect to gods which are posited to have logically incompatible attributes, I am a gnostic atheist.

With respect to gods which are posited, but don't have logically incompatible attributes, I am an agnostic atheist.

TillICollapse · May 11, 2015

Joshua260 said:
To clarify again, as I did for hammer of Thor, I believe this recent exchange (between Colter and bhsmte) happens to be concerning, not just any ole god, but specifically the Christian God.

So to you then. Do believe that the existence of evil is incompatible with the existence of the Christian god?

I think you are taking for granted that when you say "God" and "Christian God" ... in your own mind, this automatically presumes a certain subset of qualities ascribed to "God".

Not everyone presumes those same qualities in their concept of "God", even the Christian God for that matter. So you would need to define what you mean by "Christian God". It's not being difficult to ask you to define it, because again ... I think the believer often takes for granted that their definition isn't shared by everyone, esp an unbeliever who may not hold to the same staunch attributes that you may to even consider "God" a god in the first place.

For example, I don't see why a deity would have to be all knowing and all loving to be considered a deity. But I don't know if for you personally, that is a necessary attribute in which you/yourself limit God to "have to's" in order for you to even consider God ... God.

Having said that, I found your settup too vague to respond to. It's why I didn't respond to it. Too many questions of clarification it raised imo. So I don't know if the existence of evil is compatible with the Christian God because I don't know what you personally mean by "Christian God" ... nor do I know what "all powerful" or "evil" means in the context you mean them for that matter.

talquin · May 11, 2015

KWCrazy said:
Not in the least.
Does light exist? Certainly.
Can light make a dark room bright? Certainly.
Can you add darkness to the room? No.
Why not?
There is no darkness, only the absence of light. The further one removes himself from the light, the more the light fades into darkness.
Evil is removal from the presence of God. Lucifer and his angels did that and they were cast out of Heaven. As the absence of any light is pure darkness, the absence of any goodness is pure evil.

Man was created in the light with free will to chose who he would serve, In his arrogance, man chose to have the knowledge of good and evil. With such knowledge is the consequence of choices. The wages of sin are death, and so with the man's sin death and corruption entered into the world.

This world, however, is unimportant. It's a temporary stop in an eternal journey. Whether we live in the light or in darkness depends on whether we embrace or reject the Lord. You can't curse your light for darkness. Blame instead the obstructions between you and the light which have your world in darkness. Remove the obstruction and you'll see the light.

Problem of evil doesn't address the absence of God. It addresses things like destructive typhoons, mass murderers, child molesters, destructive earthquakes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmjFVP6qkiI

KWCrazy · May 11, 2015

bhsmte said:
Of course, the fact that a God would require everyone believe that his son Jesus was God and one must believe Jesus was God to avoid eternal torment, also creates a problem of a loving God.

Perhaps you should go back and re-read Romans 2.

If this requirement is part of Christianity,

Christianity is people of Christ. One must be of Christ to be of Christ.

2/3 of the worlds population is doomed according to this theology and sorry, if that God exists, it does not match the Christian description of that God loving and caring for his creation.

Again, re-read Romans 2.

For those that can reconcile the Christian story with reality, so be it, I can't

Perhaps the problem is your perception of reality. This world is a temporary construct. Reality is eternal.

Joshua260 · May 11, 2015

bhsmte said:
Sure it's possible, but it doesn't fit the Christian description of God and makes that God highly unlikely.

It does fit the God of the bible and we can discuss that another nite, but it's good to hear that you recognize that problem of evil argument does not prove that the Christian God does not exist. Thanks for your time and have a good nite.

KWCrazy · May 12, 2015

talquin said:
Problem of evil doesn't address the absence of God. It addresses things like destructive typhoons, mass murderers, child molesters, destructive earthquakes.

Typhoons are only destructive if you live near the sea. If you want to be safe, move inland. The wise man built his house on the rock, remember? Weather happens. Mass murderers and child molesters are people who commit evil actions. Is evil, by definition, acting according to God's laws or in rejection of God's laws? Did God ever say you would live forever? No. People die. Some people die young. It shows us that we must always be ready. The presence of evil doesn't rule out good. Without good you wouldn't have a definition of evil.

Joshua260 · May 12, 2015

talquin said:
With respect to gods which are posited to have logically incompatible attributes, I am a gnostic atheist.

With respect to gods which are posited, but don't have logically incompatible attributes, I am an agnostic atheist.

yeah, totally uninterested with silly gods. Tell me how you are with respect to the Christian god. I'm a Christian, so please don't waste my time saying that you're a gnostic atheist when it comes to Thor.

Joshua260 · May 12, 2015

TillICollapse said:
I think you are taking for granted that when you say "God" and "Christian God" ... in your own mind, this automatically presumes a certain subset of qualities ascribed to "God".

Not everyone presumes those same qualities in their concept of "God", even the Christian God for that matter. So you would need to define what you mean by "Christian God". It's not being difficult to ask you to define it, because again ... I think the believer often takes for granted that their definition isn't shared by everyone, esp an unbeliever who may not hold to the same staunch attributes that you may to even consider "God" a god in the first place.

For example, I don't see why a deity would have to be all knowing and all loving to be considered a deity. But I don't know if for you personally, that is a necessary attribute in which you/yourself limit God to "have to's" in order for you to even consider God ... God.

Having said that, I found your settup too vague to respond to. It's why I didn't respond to it. Too many questions of clarification it raised imo. So I don't know if the existence of evil is compatible with the Christian God because I don't know what you personally mean by "Christian God" ... nor do I know what "all powerful" or "evil" means in the context you mean them for that matter.

yada yada...I'm talking about the God of the bible. Please don't waste time. It's aggravating. So is the existence of evil incompatible with the existence of the Christian god as described in the bible? It's not a difficult question.

TillICollapse · May 12, 2015

Joshua260 said:
yada yada...I'm talking about the God of the bible. Please don't waste time. It's aggravating. So is the existence of evil incompatible with the existence of the Christian god as described in the bible? It's not a difficult question.

So do you agree that this God:

* Does not know everything and doesn't always know what we're going to do (is not omniscient)
* Learns
* Is not the god of the world
* Angels procreated with human beings to produce hybrids
* Elohim created one group of humans, Yahweh created another group
* Angels gave the Law to Moses and enforced it brutally
* May be limited in what he can do (perhaps not omnipotent)
* Jesus is not God the Father

Is this what you mean by Christian/Biblical god ?

Eudaimonist · May 12, 2015

talquin said:
Problem of evil doesn't address the absence of God. It addresses things like destructive typhoons, mass murderers, child molesters, destructive earthquakes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmjFVP6qkiI

A useful CF tip for you... if you remove the "s" from "https:" in a youtube video, it won't mess up the page formatting for people.

eudaimonia,

Mark

quatona · May 12, 2015

Joshua260 said:
Thanks for the red herring. I'm pretty sure we're talking about the Christian God in this recent exchange. So when atheists respond with the problem of evil when talking about the Christian god, they are making the positive assertive claim that the Christian god does not exist. They are not simply stating that "they see no reason to believe there is a God" as bhsmte put it.

Neither are they stating that "there is no God" - which was the claim you said you were about to test out by your question.
Of course, even if we could rule out the accuracy of certain god concepts (as illogical, incoherent, inconsistent, self-contradictory...) this still leaves us with numerous other god concepts.

I see you avoided answering the question.

...and he did well in doing that: it is immaterial for veracity of the statement you wanted to test out.

Would you assert that the existence of evil is incompatible with the existence of the Christian god?

There are plenty of threads discussing the PoE. If you think there is a need for another one, feel free to create it. (Personally, I do not think it is a very powerful argument - particularly since it operates with the very poorly defined words - "evil", "all-good" - that Christians use to describe their theology with.)

Archaeopteryx · May 12, 2015

Colter said:
Atheist on occasion claim to know that believers do not know God. I ask simply by what tequnique do they claim to know this?

I'm not sure that this is correct per se. Atheists ask you how you know that your theistic claims are true, and also how you know that the claims of other religions are false. I've asked you variations of this question in the past. The question is open, allowing for the possibility that you do know what you claim to know.

Why are there so many atheists on a Christian site?

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I believe in life before death!

"God"? What do you mean??

Wanderer

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