Why are there so many atheists on a Christian site?

Cearbhall · May 15, 2015

oi_antz said:
I also know that it is possible that someone who has known Jesus might follow a conflicting desire. I have asked you actually whether you discussed your conflicting desires with Him before you abandoned Him. You didn't answer that question. You cannot defend your position and weasel out of it at the same time, only one or the other.

I haven't answered it because it's not applicable to me, and I have explained this to you over and over. But you don't seem interested in actually listening to anyone but yourself. You've convinced yourself that everything I say, and even everything I don't say, is evidence towards your predetermined conclusion. I shut down our discussion because it's clear that you don't want to have a constructive conversation that is mutually beneficial, but you even managed to construe that to fit your conclusion.

I did not have a "conflicting desire." I simply altered my existential and moral conclusions upon exposure to compelling evidence to the contrary, as I try to do with everything. I'm confused about when you think I should have tried to discuss it with him. I had no reason to discuss it with him when I still believed that he could hear me, and why would I have talked to him when I no longer believed that he could hear me?

There's nothing to "defend." This is my life experience, and that's a fact. It doesn't have to fit your religious narrative.

oi_antz · May 15, 2015

Cearbhall said:
I haven't answered it because it's not applicable to me, and I have explained this to you over and over. But you don't seem interested in actually listening to anyone but yourself. You've convinced yourself that everything I say, and even everything I don't say, is evidence towards your predetermined conclusion. I shut down our discussion because it's clear that you don't want to have a constructive conversation that is mutually beneficial, but you even managed to construe that to fit your conclusion.

I did not have a "conflicting desire." I simply altered my existential and moral conclusions upon exposure to compelling evidence to the contrary, as I try to do with everything. I'm confused about when you think I should have tried to discuss it with him. I had no reason to discuss it with him when I still believed that he could hear me, and why would I have talked to him when I no longer believed that he could hear me?

This seems like you should answer "no". It seems you decided to dismiss Him without discussing it with Him. I am interested to know, did you ever have a relationship with Him where you did discuss things?

eulea · May 15, 2015

I also tuned in here because of an email.

GrimKingGrim said:
You don't get this atheism thing do you?

You know, honestly I don't. I look at the universe, its order,and grandeur, and marvel wondering how, when the second law of thermodynamics decrees that the direction is toward chaos and not order, one can see creation occurring without direction. I look at the life on earth and marvel at the complexity of an eye and see complicated structure and capability and wonder how such happened.

GrimKingGrim said:

Science is clearly the Devil's work and has never helped us one bit, no siree. (As I type on a revolution in science)QUOTE]

Science does not disagree with the Bible. Those who reject science quite often haven't studied both enough to see how in agreement they are. Two aspects contributing to this are that we have English Bibles which don't and can't fully translate the Hebrew and Greek meanings and the Western modern mindset not taking into account the ancient Eastern way of thinking and general knowledge of the time. Also our teaching of science is woefully lacking in the U.S.

We often forget that the scientific method is less than 200 years old. In the Bible are descriptions of scientific concepts and facts not known until millennia later. Earth as a sphere hanging on nothing. The hydrological cycle. Just a couple of examples.

Many don't realize the difference between a theory and proven fact. Does evolution occur? Of course. Have you had more than one cold in your life? Does the influenza vaccine need to be changed each year? Is Climate Change occurring? Yes, but that is nothing new. The Earth's climate is in constant change and has always been. The debate is more about whether and how much man's activities are contributing to it.

When people don't understand something it can lead to fear, prejudice and very incorrect conclusions. This is a universal truth. It is not limited to believers or unbelievers.

Science and theology are two very different ways of thought. Science deals in the how. Theology deals is the why. Too often people confuse them drawing erroneous conclusions. Whenever this is done, from a scientific or theological standpoint, conclusion can sound pretty stupid. Unfortunately, rather than carefully, thoughtfully and tactfully presenting the fallacies of the ideas the response is condescending, rudely put often ending with name calling.

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Hortense · May 15, 2015

Hopefully they'll listen to a site that runs a lot of proof that the Bible is an authentic document that could not possibly have been created by man. Sometimes www.drandmrsthey.com provides information about things like how many factual scientific proofs were written in the Bible hundreds of years before they were discovered by man. Hopefully they'll check it out and get some truth instead of assumptions about what they don't have all the facts about. You can believe anything, but truth is unmovable. That's why when so many of us who once were atheist, finally get around to getting truth wake up and become believers.

oi_antz · May 15, 2015

Cearbhall said:
There's nothing to "defend." This is my life experience, and that's a fact. It doesn't have to fit your religious narrative.

I keep missing these, with BHSTSME it has happened twice. I am sure this is added by an edit after my reply, but nothing indicates your post has been edited. I almost missed this again if it was not for a review.

Yes, you feel you might not need to defend yourself, but I am concerned about this. If what you are saying is that you performed the test properly and did not get expected results, you are saying that Jesus has failed to keep His promise. This concerns me because I know that you cannot escape Him. You have chosen to not believe it, but I still have this faith. And if you are saying this, that He has failed you when actually He hasn't, it encourages others to be confident to do the same. Whereas I remember that you said earlier that you think the language is misleading, it seems that you really do not feel confident that you have actually had a relationship with Jesus.

.. I just tend to think that you have gotten into making a claim against Jesus that you really shouldn't need to do, and it is because you think somehow that you will benefit by convincing people that you are a genuine de-convert. Not as though I don't understand what would motivate that, because I am as human as the rest, but still concerned that you are making a charge against Jesus that I find to be unbelievable. That's all it is.

Cearbhall · May 15, 2015

Cearbhall · May 15, 2015

Hortense said:
Hopefully they'll listen to a site that runs a lot of proof that the Bible is an authentic document that could not possibly have been created by man. Sometimes www.drandmrsthey.com provides information about things like how many factual scientific proofs were written in the Bible hundreds of years before they were discovered by man. Hopefully they'll check it out and get some truth instead of assumptions about what they don't have all the facts about. You can believe anything, but truth is unmovable.

The audio is making me assume that the site is a joke, but I can't tell because we can't see people's icons anymore.

oi_antz said:
I keep missing these, with BHSTSME it has happened twice. I am sure this is added by an edit after my reply, but nothing indicates your post has been edited. I almost missed this again if it was not for a review.

You can edit posts up to 5 minutes after posting without it showing. I often use this function to avoid double-posting if I have another thought.

oi_antz · May 15, 2015

Cearbhall said:
The audio is making me assume that the site is a joke, but I can't tell because we can't see people's icons anymore.

You can edit posts up to 5 minutes after posting without it showing. I often use this function to avoid double-posting if I have another thought.

I knew that on the old system, but with this new one I am expecting all new policies. I will test it, thanks.

Edited within 1 minute.

Edited after 3 minutes.

Edited after 7 minutes.

Confirmed: seems to allow undisclosed edits up to 5 minutes from the original post.

Colter · May 15, 2015

Eudaimonist said:
Are you admitting that faith as a means of knowledge is epistemologically circular?

eudaimonia,

Mark

No, you are over-intellectualizing a simple truth, when you first meet God, faith comes with it. Its like hearing about a person for a long time, developing a concept of that person based on what you have heard, but then genuinely experiencing the presence of that person wherein the former concepts are overwritten with the actual experience. Your experience with the presence of that person is your own unique possession, and there are no combination of words you could provide that would adequately communicate to another person the personality you encountered. That is why when a faith child of God experiences the loving Father (who is within) they really cannot define that experience to the doubters.

Cearbhall · May 15, 2015

oi_antz said:
Yes, you feel you might not need to defend yourself, but I am concerned about this.

Because that's part of your belief system. I understand. But it's not my concern.

oi_antz said:
If what you are saying is that you performed the test properly and did not get expected results, you are saying that Jesus has failed to keep His promise.

Well, I'm not Christian, so that doesn't really bother me. I'm sorry if my spiritual journey is causing you any distress.

oi_antz · May 15, 2015

Cearbhall said:
Because that's part of your belief system. I understand. But it's not my concern.

Well, I'm not Christian, so that doesn't really bother me. I'm sorry if my spiritual journey is causing you any distress.

Can you just for a moment, despite all of your present beliefs, imagine yourself in front of Jesus on His throne and the whole world (including me) watching you.

Would you state that you have made this claim in perfect honesty today:

You did open the door to Him, and He failed to come in and share a meal with you.

Just yes or no, that's all.

bartus88 · May 15, 2015

Edit: Got an email, decided to reply, now decided it's better not to.

Chozen1956 · May 15, 2015

The enemy always hangs around the church. In fact, he's infiltrated it quite effectively. There are loads of atheists, unbelievers in the church. They're called weeds, wolves, goats. I wouldn't worry about it.

TLK Valentine · May 15, 2015

Chozen1956 said:
The enemy always hangs around the church. In fact, he's infiltrated it quite effectively. There are loads of atheists, unbelievers in the church. They're called weeds, wolves, goats. I wouldn't worry about it.

How long have I been your enemy?

Cearbhall · May 15, 2015

oi_antz said:
Would you state that you have made this claim in perfect honesty today:

You did open the door to Him, and He failed to come in and share a meal with you.

Just yes or no, that's all.

Yes.

Freodin · May 15, 2015

oi_antz said:
This seems like you should answer "no". It seems you decided to dismiss Him without discussing it with Him. I am interested to know, did you ever have a relationship with Him where you did discuss things?

I am one of these atheists who never were "True Christians" or even "a believer" at all. I never thought / believed / imagined that I had " a relationship with Him".

But I am quite open to this whole topic, and I am always happy to communicate with people of faith.

So here you are, another one of those who claim to have the fool-proof way of finding Jesus... if done right.

I showed you this promise that Jesus has made, an example of a reliable test that if performed properly will produce sufficient evidence for anyone to be convinced beyond reasonable doubt.

I think I missed where you showed this promise, and showed that it is a "reliable test"... propably because I have not yet adjusted to the new forum software. If you could state it again, I would be grateful.

What I did find is references to "discuss it with Jesus" and "pray". You also explained how you think you get answer to your prayers.

Is voice has never been audible to me, except when He woke me for an important meeting by speaking my name. Though I believe it was an angel. He has spoken by conversation through inner dialogue, and sometimes does, and other times through intuition, and even through self-referential paranoia from external stimuli (TV, conversation, music, events drawing attention to a current thought etc). Your question how do I know it is Him instead of me or someone else is very interesting. I suppose it is best answered by just knowing well the various characters of people.

You might understand why sceptics are not convinced by this. Every other type of "discussion" - like the one we have here - works differently. We can and do get direct responses to our own statements... while with your example, we are left with imagination and personal interpretation.

In a quest as important (as it is claimed) as "finding God", I'd like to exclude such obstacles... and I think that this is not too much to ask.

Cearbhall · May 15, 2015

oi_antz said:
This concerns me because I know that you cannot escape Him. You have chosen to not believe it, but I still have this faith. And if you are saying this, that He has failed you when actually He hasn't, it encourages others to be confident to do the same.

I don't know why you expect me to play along with a confirmation bias, especially when it's part of a religion to which I don't belong. And no, I am not trying to encourage anyone else to convert one way or another.

Freodin said:
So here you are, another one of those who claim to have the fool-proof way of finding Jesus... if done right.

And if it didn't work, then I must have done it wrong. Confirmation bias, exactly.

Archaeopteryx · May 15, 2015

TorahMan said:
Well said.

Jesus said not to cast pearls before swine, and whoever does not receive you, brush the dust off your feet and move on.

Those who have done street evangelism will be familiar with the hecklers who pretend to be interested, but whose real goal is to waste one's time by asking endless useless questions.

They prefer death to life, so let them have what they want.

What's wrong with questions? Doesn't scripture say that you should be prepared with an answer?

Archaeopteryx · May 15, 2015

oi_antz said:
How do you know that the test has been performed properly and produced different results?

The problem with your proposed test is that if the outcome is negative (i.e., it does not endorse Christianity), instead of accepting the result you will find fault with the individual who has performed the test. According to you, the test must be produce a particular outcome or else it was not conducted properly. Calling it a 'test' is a misnomer.

Archaeopteryx · May 15, 2015

What's with all the drive-by apologists?

Why are there so many atheists on a Christian site?

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