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I was referring to talquin's comment actually, but it is clear it will derail the thread. I should start a thread for this discussion really, as so many like you will want to contribute your thoughts to it. I will just wait to see what talquin says first, as it might not be necessary.If you're referring to me, yes, theodicy was the primary reason I left the faith.
I use both reason and faith, to exclude one for the other is to view the universe in distortion.
What's interesting is that faith itself is a gift, it's some sort of spirit endowment. Perhaps it come when a singer heart reaches out in trust in God? I don't know. I remember believing but not putting sincere trust in God before my conversion experience.Okay, then let's take the example of establishing the existence of God. Without pre-supposing the existence of God, please explain to me how faith can be trusted to establish the existence of God.
eudaimonia,
Mark
Would you please describe, in real terms, what "sincere trust in God" looks like?What's interesting is that faith itself is a gift, it's some sort of spirit endowment. Perhaps it come when a singer heart reaches out in trust in God? I don't know. I remember believing but not putting sincere trust in God before my conversion experience.
No, I would not say that. I would say that evil poses a problem for the claim that God is both omnipotent and omnibenevolent. This is not an argument against theism per se, but against a particular concept of God.
It's problematic for what Christians claim about God - that he is almighty and all good. In short, it's problematic for the popular Christian characterisation of God.
Maybe I'm missing something.
Someone saying that an all-powerful and all-loving God cannot exist while evil exists in the world as well, is not the same as saying "God" can't exist. It's saying a specific type of God can't exist: one with those qualities.
What's interesting is that faith itself is a gift, it's some sort of spirit endowment. Perhaps it come when a singer heart reaches out in trust in God? I don't know. I remember believing but not putting sincere trust in God before my conversion experience.
So do you agree that this God:
* Does not know everything and doesn't always know what we're going to do (is not omniscient)
* Learns
* Is not the god of the world
* Angels procreated with human beings to produce hybrids
* Elohim created one group of humans, Yahweh created another group
* Angels gave the Law to Moses and enforced it brutally
* May be limited in what he can do (perhaps not omnipotent)
* Jesus is not God the Father
Is this what you mean by Christian/Biblical god ?
Neither are they stating that "there is no God" - which was the claim you said you were about to test out by your question.
Of course, even if we could rule out the accuracy of certain god concepts (as illogical, incoherent, inconsistent, self-contradictory...) this still leaves us with numerous other god concepts.
...and he did well in doing that: it is immaterial for veracity of the statement you wanted to test out.
There are plenty of threads discussing the PoE. If you think there is a need for another one, feel free to create it. (Personally, I do not think it is a very powerful argument - particularly since it operates with the very poorly defined words - "evil", "all-good" - that Christians use to describe their theology with.)
Wow. I'm amazed at the length atheists will go to avoid answering a simple question.You're equivocating. The claim you purport to be testing is that "Atheists claim there is no God." Yet you are actually testing a claim about the existence of an all-powerful, all-loving God. By the end of this paragraph then, the meaning has shifted from "no God" to "no all-powerful, all-loving God." Is this sleight of hand deliberate?
I did answer previously, I didn't refuse to answer ... I told you that I didn't know because I didn't know what you meant by your terms. You then responded with more vagueness concerning your terms. Instead of merely blowing off your response, I even tried to do some of the defining for you for clarification. You have now ignored that attempt at clarification apparently.Again, you refuse to answer.
The problem of evil doesn't necessarily say that such a being can't or doesn't exist, just that if he does, he's probably not as all-loving as Christians make him out to be. Or just not as all-powerful or all-knowing as Christians claim. If he does exist, then he's either impotent, apathetic towards suffering, or sadistic.Wow. I'm amazed at the length atheists will go to avoid answering a simple question.
The problem of evil is stated thusly:
1. An all-knowing God could prevent evil.
2. An all-loving God would prevent evil.
3. Evil exists.
4. Therefore, said God does not exist.
Christians claim that our god exists and describe him as being an all-knowing, all-loving god. This is in direct conflict with the conclusion of the problem of evil argument. Therefore, if you subscribe to the problem of evil argument, then you are making a positive claim that the Christian god as described above does not exist.
So which is it? Is the problem of evil argument incorrect, or do you concur with the argument and thus make the assertive claim that the Christian god we Christians worship does not exist?
I am certain that everyone must make an assumption resulting for or against belief in likeliness. That is apparently effective in sorting who naturally stands for and against Him.I had said without pre-supposing that God exists. Without first believing (or trusting) that God exists, I would have no reason to think that faith is a "spirit endowment". Reaching out to trust in God is also first believing that God exists. It is all epistemologically circular.
eudaimonia,
Mark
I had said without pre-supposing that God exists. Without first believing (or trusting) that God exists, I would have no reason to think that faith is a "spirit endowment". Reaching out to trust in God is also first believing that God exists. It is all epistemologically circular.
eudaimonia,
Mark
The problem of evil doesn't necessarily say that such a being can't or doesn't exist, just that if he does, he's probably not as all-loving as Christians make him out to be. Or just not as all-powerful or all-knowing as Christians claim. If he does exist, then he's either impotent, apathetic towards suffering, or sadistic.
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