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Consider the following two examples:
I looked up those terms.Thanks for your detailed response! I would be happy to move on and consider your long post, but not before we settle the simpler matter I brought up. Do you agree with the Principle of Testimony as I have presented it? There's no reason to start talking about complicated scenarios with multiple persons and beliefs if we can't even agree on the simplest scenario.
I looked up those terms.
No at first glance, I don't agree with them.
- Principle of Credulity – with the absence of any reason to disbelieve it, one should accept what appears to be true (e.g., if one sees someone walking on water, one should believe that it is occurring)
- Principle of Testimony – with the absence of any reason to disbelieve them, one should accept that eyewitnesses or believers are telling the truth when they testify about religious experiences.
A psych patient who is convinced that the nurse is a policeman who is there to steal their wallet, has no reason to disbelieve such a thing from their point of view and altered cognition. They may not be able to perceive things differently. And no, I don't believe they *should* believe what they are believing. Do they ? Yes. Should they ? I would probably argue no.
With both principles, those qualifiers of "with the absence of any reason to disbelieve it" is a major qualifier, and that phrase: "should believe" would need some clarifying.
Why are you so intent on framing our views as a type of faith? Is it really so important to you that we have "faith" of some kind, even if it's not the kind you want us to have? It's all just a matter of semantics, and I don't see what you have to gain.The point you keep missing is that, unless you have some firsthand knowledge...you've been to Pluto and have explored every crevice in it...or you have some serious evidence, you cannot know what or who might live on Pluto. As ridiculous as it seems, your stance that no alien named Greeble lives there is based on faith.
Naming the alien doesn't change that.
Why not? Do you have a counter-example? In your post you gave one counter-example:
I don't quite understand where you mean to go with this. Which principle are you aiming at here? I assume you are speaking to the Principle of Credulity, but I asked you about the Principle of Testimony...? It may be interesting to talk about the Principle of Credulity, but it isn't clear that it is related to this thread. So do you have any counter-arguments against the Principle of Testimony? Let me rephrase it, since it isn't restricted to religion:
- Principle of Testimony – with the absence of any reason to disbelieve them, one should accept that persons are telling the truth when they testify about a belief they hold to be objectively true.
You might see it as a major qualifier, but it is really just highlighting the ceteris paribus nature in which all principles ought to be taken. "Should believe" or "should accept" indicates a kind of rational justification. So we could say that they are rationally justified in believing and irrational in disbelieving.
Why are you so intent on framing our views as a type of faith? Is it really so important to you that we have "faith" of some kind, even if it's not the kind you want us to have? It's all just a matter of semantics, and I don't see what you have to gain.
Are you saying we should believe that the person giving testimony believes what they are saying? Or...
Are you saying we should believe the testimony as given?
I don't think your Principle of Testimony makes it clear as you've described it.
Sorry, I was just retaining that language from the Wikipedia article. I am saying that you should believe the testimony as given. You should believe that it is true. Good question.
Sorry, I was just retaining that language from the Wikipedia article. I am saying that you should believe the testimony as given. You should believe that it is true. Good question.
I'm imagining someone writing on a test that scientists rely on faith even when they haven't constructed a hypothesis yet.Common thing with some Christians. If they rely on faith, they need to convince themselves non believers do as well.
In your first response to me, you mentioned both Principles. In your second response, you mentioned just the one, but I included them both for expedience in case you would ask me about both.Why not? Do you have a counter-example? In your post you gave one counter-example:
I don't quite understand where you mean to go with this. Which principle are you aiming at here? I assume you are speaking to the Principle of Credulity, but I asked you about the Principle of Testimony...? It may be interesting to talk about the Principle of Credulity, but it isn't clear that it is related to this thread. So do you have any counter-arguments against the Principle of Testimony? Let me rephrase it, since it isn't restricted to religion:
Yes I see it as a major qualifier ("the absence of any reason to disbelieve them") because it's placing a unique context on the situation, without providing a situation to actually examine. It's not the same as saying "All things being equal" rather it's unique in how it limits the context.
- Principle of Testimony – with the absence of any reason to disbelieve them, one should accept that persons are telling the truth when they testify about a belief they hold to be objectively true.
You might see it as a major qualifier, but it is really just highlighting the ceteris paribus nature in which all principles ought to be taken. "Should believe" or "should accept" indicates a kind of rational justification. So we could say that they are rationally justified in believing and irrational in disbelieving.
Why should the testimony be believed as given?
Then it's a horrible principle lol.
For many many reasons, but chiefly amongst them would be the fact that eyewitness testimony is horribly unreliable. This is scientific fact.
- Principle of Testimony – with the absence of any reason to disbelieve them, one should accept that persons are telling the truth when they testify about a belief they hold to be objectively true.
Actually, yes, minus the objection. Everyone working on the case would be fully aware that eyewitness testimonies are horribly unreliable, thanks to scientific research. The human brain is awful at comprehending situations while in crisis. The contradictions that you see between testimonies are hilarious.lol. So if you were a lawyer, you wouldn't even call any witnesses? And as soon as a witness began to speak you would object, telling the judge, "Eyewitness testimony is horribly unreliable! This is scientific fact!" I wonder then, what sort of testimony would you accept if not eyewitness testimony? Do you apply this to yourself? When you witness something like a car accident do you distrust your eyes?
Why shouldn't it? That is the question. Should our prima facie attitude toward testimony qua testimony be one of belief or skepticism?
That would depend how credible the testimony is and if it can be objectively verified.
There is a reason they cross examine eye witnesses in court cases and many times, witnesses are impeached when their testimony is examined. Just because someone says or writes something, doesn't make it automatically true.
Actually, yes, minus the objection. Everyone working on the case would be fully aware that eyewitness testimonies are horribly unreliable, thanks to scientific research. The human brain is awful at comprehending situations while in crisis.
Okay I see you've responded a bit to others concerning what is meant by that Principle.Why shouldn't it? That is the question. Should our prima facie attitude toward testimony qua testimony be one of belief or skepticism?
lol. So if you were a lawyer, you wouldn't even call any witnesses? And as soon as a witness began to speak you would object, telling the judge, "Eyewitness testimony is horribly unreliable! This is scientific fact!" I wonder then, what sort of testimony would you accept if not eyewitness testimony? Do you apply this to yourself? When you witness something like a car accident do you distrust your eyes?
Obviously I don't think your answer will hold much water at all, but it's also beside the point. I didn't say anything about "eyewitness testimony." Again, here is what I said:
I was literally quoting you. I used the phrase because you did. It's all you talked about in the quote to which I replied...I never said anything about "eyewitness testimony" (or any of the baggage that comes with that term--baggage which contains reasons to disbelieve).
This is just a straw man. Yes of course "not holding a belief" is the same as "not having a belief". No one is arguing that.
You were twisting his words. I tried 3 times to explain why these statements are not the same.
So I'll try once more.
Not believing in Greeble is not the same as believing in no Greeble.
The first statement required absolutely no faith.
Now you've flipped it. We're simply wondering why you would want to "accuse" us of such a thing. It's not really insulting to me if someone defines the word "faith" in a different way than I do. The way that I feel about dear Greeble simply does not fit my own definition of "faith."Is it really because you don't want anyone to accuse you of having faith that there is no alien named Greeble living on Pluto?
Would it make you terribly angry if I were to tell you that I have faith that there is no alien named Greeble living on Pluto?
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