Why are the Orthodox being taught this? [Moved from OBOB]

[Dorothea]

I can not tell what it is like in the US. I am simply giving you what I have expereienced. I am not even attempting to say that this is normal behaviour throughout Orthodoxy here in Australia

When I attended Catholic church in my own suburb the parish was full of people there were from everywhere.

When I went to one Antiochian Orthodox parish - to the dedicated English service EVERYONE but me was of Arabic speaking background. After church, the people gathered for 'fellowship' and all spoke in Arabic. Then someone might say "Oh, sorry! We forgot you were there" remembering that I was standing right there while they talked in Arabic.


I accept this, but note well that a "Greek Orthodox Church" in Australia is likely to have mostly Greeks, or people who've married Greeks. A Catholic church here won't usually be one ethnic group.

My experience with the Antiochian church was repeated when I went to a Greek Orthodox parish for a 'talk' on the Bible. It was an open invitiation to people to come to a church hall and hear about the NT and its place within Orthodoxy. There were opening prayers in Greek. Everyone there but me was either Greek, or married to a Greek. I was told about this by a friend of my mum's and she didn't even come up and say hello to me.

English is not even a language used regularly in Greek Orthodox parishes. I went to Antiochian Orthodox churches because they advertised a regular English service. The Greek churches have English at one parish one week, then the English service moves to another parish the next week, and so on, on a cycle of about five parishes including one in Wollongong which is a totally different city 82 kilometres (51 mi) south of Sydney. I am aprox. 23 kilometres (14 mi) west of Sydney, you can do the maths to work out the distance between me and Wollongong.


I expect perhaps your experiences have been different to mine.

I shall say nothing more on this here. I only commented initially at remark by Lionroar; the disaster of condemning an Orthodox for seeking out Western Rite Orthodox.

It's different here in the U.S. I go to the Greek Orthodox Church, and the priest is of Albanian descent. The chanter is Palestinian, his wife is Jordanian. We have Greek families, Romanian families, Lebonese families, Palestinian families, Serbian families, Russian families, and basic American families (converts). And 80% of our service is in English. Mostly the hymns are in Greek (about 90/10%).

 

[Macarius]

It's different here in the U.S. I go to the Greek Orthodox Church, and the priest is of Albanian descent. The chanter is Palestinian, his wife is Jordanian. We have Greek families, Romanian families, Lebonese families, Palestinian families, Serbian families, Russian families, and basic American families (converts). And 80% of our service is in English. Mostly the hymns are in Greek (about 90/10%).

My experience in the OCA is similar to this, except that our service is entirely English. We do (I think twice a month) have a slavonic liturgy on Saturday, and much of the style of our service / rite is slavonic in origin, though we do a bit of pick-and-chose (based on our priest's preference - he has a great eye for liturgical detail). Sometimes I'll assume something was a Russian practice (since we do it in this OCA parish) only to be told it is more common in Greek or Antiochean traditions and we "borrowed" it because we liked it.

The American church definitely has its ethnic moments, but an awful lot of it is, on the ground, multi-ethnic. The jurisdictions are reality, but they designate ethnic emphasis - not ethnic exclusivity.

Montalban - your situation sounds like what my priest went through in America 30 years ago. Things CAN change. And the service is in English! That's a huge deal (it wasn't in the US 30 years ago - the services were in the language of the jurisdiction).

 

[Dorothea]

My experience in the OCA is similar to this, except that our service is entirely English. We do (I think twice a month) have a slavonic liturgy on Saturday, and much of the style of our service / rite is slavonic in origin, though we do a bit of pick-and-chose (based on our priest's preference - he has a great eye for liturgical detail). Sometimes I'll assume something was a Russian practice (since we do it in this OCA parish) only to be told it is more common in Greek or Antiochean traditions and we "borrowed" it because we liked it.

As I recall, you went to Sts Constantine and Helen in Colorado Springs (I think they've changed the name to Holy Theophany or Theophany), didn't you? That is our sister church about 5 miles up the road from us.

 

[Macarius]

As I recall, you went to Sts Constantine and Helen in Colorado Springs (I think they've changed the name to Holy Theophany or Theophany), didn't you? That is our sister church about 5 miles up the road from us.

My wife was catechized there, and we were married there, but then moved to Seattle, WA.

 

[Eucharisted]

Why is this thread still active? The issue was resolved on the first page. I told a mod but I guess if off-topic is allowed on this thread, than I'll let it be.

 

[Montalban]

Why is this thread still active? The issue was resolved on the first page. I told a mod but I guess if off-topic is allowed on this thread, than I'll let it be.

You claimed a quote was not true.

Many Catholics argued that it was in fact genuine, but that it was taken out of context.

You never resolved that.

Secondly based on your false premise you decided to speculate as to motives.

I asked where people got their research from - those who seem to know the 'mind of the Orthodox community'. No one at all answered that.


You got an answer from Anglian and you simply accepted this non-Catholic, non-Orthodox's opinion of what he thinks Orthodox think.

You replied to him a second time on that first page thanking him for more of his opinion.

You're more than welcome to address any issue raised. Perhaps you think Anglian's word is gospel as you so eagerly accepted as fact everything he put to you

 

[Joshua G.]

Eucharisted...

I think the big thing is simply that in the OP it was insinuated that this quote was a lie (i.e. made-up) which is a serious accusation to those websites that posted this excerpt. If it had been made up, the accusation would have still been serious, but fair.

However, when, in the end, we all learned together (if we didn't already know, which I didn't... I hadn't ever heard this quote before so for me the thread was really interesting) that, indeed, this quote was 100% genuine, no one even offered an apology for the accusation.

Instead, people jumped from one unattractive accusation (that the 'quoters' were part of a conspiracy of delusion) to another, that our interpretation was less than genious. Now, that latter is much less serious than the former, for, to invent a quote or not check it's source is disgraceful, but an interpretation is just that, an interpretation, and this thread, if nothing else, has gone to show that the implications of that quote is only as "obvious" to the reader as their view on the Pope's role is obvious to them.

So, this thread showed itself not to be, so much, a search for truth (for if it were, an apology would have been made for the initial insinuations without even having to think about) but rather a "let's see how we can expose the Orthodox argument as silly... oh, the OP didn't work, well let's attack their interpretation. Perhaps that will stick."

Don't get me wrong, many OBOB threads have been very kind and genuine toward Orthodox. And, conversely, we in TAW have been guilty of the same thing in certain threads of our own, so, yes, this is the pot calling the kettle black. But that doesn't make the kettle any less black.

Hopefully we, Orthodox, take this thread as an example of what to look out for when we start threads about Catholics or other non-Orthodox groups in TAW. Are our intentions sincerely for discovering the truth in love and humility or is it just about playing a game of gotcha? I would suggest that we have been guilty of the latter at times.

Josh

 

[Gwendolyn]

It's different here in the U.S. I go to the Greek Orthodox Church, and the priest is of Albanian descent. The chanter is Palestinian, his wife is Jordanian. We have Greek families, Romanian families, Lebonese families, Palestinian families, Serbian families, Russian families, and basic American families (converts). And 80% of our service is in English. Mostly the hymns are in Greek (about 90/10%).

I'm from Ontario, and I've unfortunately had a similar experience to Montalban. The only Orthodox parish I have access to is a Greek parish, with services, homily, etc. entirely in Greek, and everyone who attends really is Greek or married to a Greek.

I am as white as they come. Scottish and Irish descent. I only know a couple words in Greek (Kyrie, Theotokos). Yes, the DL was still incredibly beautiful and I vaguely knew what was going on, but the language/cultural barrier was difficult to handle. =/

 

[Montalban]

What happened to the OP? Has he admitted the quote was not false?

 

[Dorothea]

I'm from Ontario, and I've unfortunately had a similar experience to Montalban. The only Orthodox parish I have access to is a Greek parish, with services, homily, etc. entirely in Greek, and everyone who attends really is Greek or married to a Greek.

I am as white as they come. Scottish and Irish descent. I only know a couple words in Greek (Kyrie, Theotokos). Yes, the DL was still incredibly beautiful and I vaguely knew what was going on, but the language/cultural barrier was difficult to handle. =/

Hmmm, it seems in other countries such as Oz and Canada (maybe it's the same in some European countries), this seems to be the case (all in Greek). Not sure why. I've been going to Greek Orthodox Churches since 1997, and all of them were a mix of people, some bigger parishes than others...mostly smaller ones (which I prefer). The most Greek spoken was the one I attended in Dayton, the Annunciation, which was about 60% Greek and 40% English. All the rest were more English than Greek (that would be the other three I've attended for about 3 years each since my hubs was in the air force, and we moved on average every 2-3 years.
About 80-90% English and 10-20% Greek. In fact, the church in Ft. Walton was all in English except for special times during the year (then it was about 80% English/20% Greek).

 

[Philothei]

It is normal that where Orthdooxy is still young to be the so called "immigrant church". In the 1960's there were still Lutheran Churches in the States worshiping in German. Still mass celebrated in Latin... I wonder how a English speaking person would feel celebrating a Latin mass... I think it can be as challenging as Greek. I was attending a Serbian Church for a year in Boston. The priest was my classmate from the Seminary. It was all in Serbian. In one month I knew all the hymns and was able to follow along even if they follow the Sabaitic typikon and do things different. So what? I know the Liturgy by heart I followed my book for a month and was able to tell you what they say and what part of the Liturgy they were at. Still in my ears rings the "Boze nas" "Our Father" in serbian. It was a beautiful experience. People spoke in Serbian in the coffee hour too...The difference was that they were super friendly... They loved us from the beginning opened up to us and welcomed us. I think that it depends on the parish not the ethnic group...Anyone can be "unfriendly" in any denomination and church. And that was Boston where they say people are more reserved.... Contrary to the south were people are said to be more "open" still some greek parishes in the south are more unapprochable.. I had a hard time with parishes in the midwest to be truthful but I cannot generalize either

I think when we generalize and stereotype like this we may miss in the true meaning of what the Christ's message was all about... That by doing this we become more "closed minded" and we do not give the chance to our fellow Christians who indeed maybe they are struggling with this just the same way we do. How many times any of us has looked upon a person and said...."Ah.. I better look the other way this person might just be visiting ... let someone else make the initial contact" cause we shy away... ?

I know sometimes it has happened to me as I am not so outgoing in person. Immigrants are by nature shy due to their limited usage of English they think the other will make fun of them. And many times (will include myself) I do not speak as I make mistakes and in fear of been laughed at. So to say the parishioners of an ethnic group that are first generation do not "welcome" new commers ...is sometimes due to that and less the result of someone trying to be a "snob" or "unfriendly" .

My 0.2 cents.

Now to regular programing with the OP.

 

[Joshua G.]

It is normal that where Orthdooxy is still young to be the so called "immigrant church". In the 1960's there were still Lutheran Churches in the States worshiping in German. Still mass celebrated in Latin... I wonder how a English speaking person would feel celebrating a Latin mass... I think it can be as challenging as Greek. I was attending a Serbian Church for a year in Boston. The priest was my classmate from the Seminary. It was all in Serbian. In one month I knew all the hymns and was able to follow along even if they follow the Sabaitic typikon and do things different. So what? I know the Liturgy by heart I followed my book for a month and was able to tell you what they say and what part of the Liturgy they were at. Still in my ears rings the "Boze nas" "Our Father" in serbian. It was a beautiful experience. People spoke in Serbian in the coffee hour too...The difference was that they were super friendly... They loved us from the beginning opened up to us and welcomed us. I think that it depends on the parish not the ethnic group...Anyone can be "unfriendly" in any denomination and church. And that was Boston where they say people are more reserved.... Contrary to the south were people are said to be more "open" still some greek parishes in the south are more unapprochable.. I had a hard time with parishes in the midwest to be truthful but I cannot generalize either

I think when we generalize and stereotype like this we may miss in the true meaning of what the Christ's message was all about... That by doing this we become more "closed minded" and we do not give the chance to our fellow Christians who indeed maybe they are struggling with this just the same way we do. How many times any of us has looked upon a person and said...."Ah.. I better look the other way this person might just be visiting ... let someone else make the initial contact" cause we shy away... ?

I know sometimes it has happened to me as I am not so outgoing in person. Immigrants are by nature shy due to their limited usage of English they think the other will make fun of them. And many times (will include myself) I do not speak as I make mistakes and in fear of been laughed at. So to say the parishioners of an ethnic group that are first generation do not "welcome" new commers ...is sometimes due to that and less the result of someone trying to be a "snob" or "unfriendly" .

My 0.2 cents.

Now to regular programing with the OP.

Great post. Very true what you said about Lutherans too. It took WWII and an false association in the minds of many Americans with Hitler to push the Lutherans into using English. Before that, it wasn't uncommon to go to Lutheran towns (eg around Chicago and other areas in the midwest) and find older people who didn't speak a lick of English and one would have been hardpressed to find a good Lutheran of German decent who didn't know German.

Also, it may be worth pointing out, that my wife can't stand overly-welcoming parishes, like when they point you out after the service or give you a gift. The gesture is nice, but it makes her not want to go back. She just doesn't like standing out. So, when she was looking into Orthodoxy, she was much more drawn to the chillaxed parish we attend now. We don't ignore anyone, but we also don't make a scene. You can't win with everyone, but, as Philothei said, we shouldn't make judgments on a Church by the way they react to us as visitors. It's 1) pretty egotistical and 2) judgmental and usually without basis in truth. Certainly there are churches of all denoms that are unwelcoming (not just shy, but preferring outsiders to NOT come) but it is actually more difficult than many would think to know if they are really just being unwelcoming or rather simply shy.

Josh

 

[Montalban]

Where's the OP? Why hasn't my question been answered - is this a false quote?

 

[Philothei]

Why are the Orthodox being taught this? [Moved from OBOB]

I found this so-called "quote" from Pope Gregory the Great:

I say it without the least hesitation, whoever calls himself the universal bishop, or desires this title, is, by his pride, the precursor of Antichrist, because he thus attempts to raise himself above the others. The error into which he falls springs from pride equal to that of Antichrist; for as that Wicked One wished to be regarded as exalted above other men, like a god, so likewise whoever would be called sole bishop exalteth himself above others....You know it, my brother; hath not the venerable Council of Chalcedon conferred the honorary title of 'universal' upon the bishops of this Apostolic See [Rome], whereof I am, by God's will, the servant? And yet none of us hath permitted this title to be given to him; none hath assumed this bold title, lest by assuming a special distinction in the dignity of the episcopate, we should seem to refuse it to all the brethren.

Gregory the Dialogist - OrthodoxWiki
​

I've seen some lies on Orthodox websites about Catholic doctrine (saying we buy souls out of Purgatory, saying we sell New Age artwork, etc.), but this one takes the cake. I googled the quote, and the only websites that came up with it are two anti-Catholic, one Orthodox, and one Protestant (see for yourself). I also used Yahoo to search for a legitimate source of the quote, but again, the same results - and a couple more Orthodox websites - was returned (see for yourself).
__________________

Here is the OP but I think it has been already dealed with...

 

[Montalban]

People certianly have discussed that quote, but the OP asserts that it's a false quote.

I've asked the OP author to show that it's so. I've asked several times.

Several Catholics have addressed the quote as if it's genuine - only questioning the context.

However I'd hoped that the author of the OP would address this.

 

[Gwendolyn]

People certianly have discussed that quote, but the OP asserts that it's a false quote.

I've asked the OP author to show that it's so. I've asked several times.

Several Catholics have addressed the quote as if it's genuine - only questioning the context.

However I'd hoped that the author of the OP would address this.

He unsubscribed from this thread long ago.

 

[Montalban]

He unsubscribed from this thread long ago.

Ah, okay.

 

[Rhamiel]

He unsubscribed from this thread long ago.

well when threads get moved around like that, who can blame him?

 

[Philothei]

Please remain with the topic and do not discuss the posters please..... This is not the topic of the thread... and if a member wishes to exit a conversation it is their right not their obligation to stay and discuss it And please no discussion about mod actions ...

 

[prodromos]

well when threads get moved around like that, who can blame him?

I can, for one