Why are the Orthodox being taught this? [Moved from OBOB]

laconicstudent said:

Nope, undergraduate B.S. Psychology program.


*glances at his 4 year plan*

Why does my hand out from the Psychology department say I need CHM 2372, Organic Chemistry for BIO 4418, Neurobiology? The online time schedule says I only need either BIO 2101 and 2102 or BIO 2129 and 2130.

Why does my school only offer a single section of it alternating years? The only neurology class here. And only 16 seats? The heck? And every blithering idiot whose taken the basic biology or anatomy sequence will think it sounds cool, regardless of whether there is professional applicability.

If I can't get into that class, I am going to go completely nuclear.

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I'm graduating with a H.BSc in Psychology as well though I'm not going into Psychology....

Montalban said:

I put the term "Catholic Church" into Wiki and then looked at the various other languages


French: Église catholique romaine
Latin: Ecclesia Catholica Romana
Scots Gaelic: Eaglais Chaitliceach Rómhánach
Bosnian:Rimokatoličanstvo
Vietnamese: Giáo hội Công giáo Rôma
Afrikaans: Rooms-Katolieke Kerk
Magyar: Római katolikus egyház
Squiggly: რომის კათოლიკური ეკლესია

Such diverse languages!

Some start off 'right' for you
Spanish: Iglesia católica, but then says it's know as Iglesia católica apostólica romana

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I don't understand when non Catholics attempt to teach Catholics about the Catholic faith. (especially on OBOB).

the Church contains both Western and Eastern rites, - and the Western rite is known as the "Roman Catholic Church". All those languages you listed, - in those countries they have Roman Catholic churches, and that explains the name. There are other Catholic churches, like Byzantine, or Syro-Malabar. They are not called "Roman Catholic". However, all Catholics are in communion with one another and in communion with the Pope.

I think we are taking the lung analogy a bit too far. The Orthodox feel like they are "breathing" fine as well. It doesn't make one more of a Church just because they have more diversity. That's an american obsession.

Joshua G. said:

I think we are taking the lung analogy a bit too far. The Orthodox feel like they are "breathing" fine as well. It doesn't make one more of a Church just because they have more diversity. That's an american obsession.

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mmmmm, no, it has nothing to do with American obsessions.

We have two lungs, I think that's the point. You have one. You do not have any unity at all with the Latin Rite, a HUGE part of Christ's Church, I hope we can at least agree on that.

You have 7 Eastern dioceses (is it 7?) and that's it. hardly the universal Church.

and so what to the OP? So what, what the anceint papacy looked like 1500 years ago?

Are we stagnate? No. So what if the papacy evloved... it can- we have been given keys to the kingdom of heaven and the gates of hell can not prevail against the Church. It won't fall into error, so that's that.

You either believe it or you don't.

I think what it used to be a thouand years ago is not all that relevant in todays world.

The Lung analogy was not presented to indicate to the East that they need the West. If anything, the Pope was mourning our continuing division and pointing out the need we in the west have for them.

benedictaoo said:

mmmmm, no, it has nothing to do with American obsessions.

We have two lungs, I think that's the point. You have one. You do not have any unity at all with the Latin Rite, a HUGE part of Christ's Church, I hope we can at least agree on that.

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Actually, to be honest, the Orthodox could care less about the whole "lung" analogy...we consider ourselves complete and universal so it really doesn't apply. But you know that. The subtext, of course, that Western Christianity isn't needed to be "complete."

Tonks said:

Actually, to be honest, the Orthodox could care less about the whole "lung" analogy...we consider ourselves complete and universal so it really doesn't apply. But you know that. The subtext, of course, that Western Christianity isn't needed to be "complete."

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There you go...

Fitch said:

The Lung analogy was not presented to indicate to the East that they need the West. If anything, the Pope was mourning our continuing division and pointing out the need we in the west have for them.

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He was referring to the two lungs we do breath with, the East and the West. we are One universal Catholic Church. The Church is not exclusively Eastern.

this desire for it to be, is what provoked the schism. The more i read and learn, the more I'm convinced it was all over power and trying to claim for itself the office Christ gave to Peter.

Actually, the point was that the church, in order to be whole, needs both and, as Bishop of the Western "lung" he was acknowledging his desire for this wholeness.

The church is broken. Pointing fingers won't solve anything. It sure hasn't worked so far and we've been trying for 900 years.

Indeed...I never disputed the assertions above. Merely noting that the EO view it differently, of course.

To be totally honest here ... I think unity is more than just EO and RC... what do y'all think? I mean we as EO do pray for the unification of "all Churches of God" Lungs only cover two churches of what I gather ....but could be wrong

MoNiCa4316 said:

I don't understand when non Catholics attempt to teach Catholics about the Catholic faith. (especially on OBOB).

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That assumes that all Catholics understand their own faith. I never make that assumption. But, the OP makes assumptions about what Orthodox believe!

I also don't think that I was teaching anyone about their 'faith', but simply what's in a name.

MoNiCa4316 said:

However, all Catholics are in communion with one another and in communion with the Pope.

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"...between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church of Constantinople."
Catholic-Orthodox Declaration

Note that the Vatican doesn't say "Between the Roman Rite and..."

And the examples just fly off the Vatican web-site...
In the peace of the Lord Jesus I greet you as you come to Rome for the inaugural meeting of the new Anglican – Roman Catholic Working Group
Address to the new Anglican - Roman Catholic Working Group

Unless these are moves to have union between say, the enitre Anglican Church and just part of the Catholic Church - those of the Roman Rite. I'd be interested to know if the Catholic church does this.

"We rejoice that Roman Catholic interest will, through the hospitality of the Anglican Communion, find expression in the presence of seven official Roman Catholic Observers and some other guests. Their diligent presence will reflect the interest and be supported by the prayers of Roman Catholics everywhere"
Letter to His Grace Michael Ramsey, 27 July 1968

benedictaoo said:

The "two lungs" refer to the eastern churches that are in union. WE are breathing fine. It's the EO that only function on one lung.

If the EO would rejoin the Eastern rites that are in union then they would have two lungs.

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We only need one!

Montalban said:

We only need one!

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uh huh, I realize you think that.

However, if the East is where it's at, all that plus chips and dip- y'all better get to evangelizing, right? because that's the gig, Christ won't come again until the whole world's evangelized, disciples made of ALL nations, not just those in the east, so, best get busy.

Montalban said:

That assumes that all Catholics understand their own faith. I never make that assumption. But, the OP makes assumptions about what Orthodox believe!

I also don't think that I was teaching anyone about their 'faith', but simply what's in a name.

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okay

Note that the Vatican doesn't say "Between the Roman Rite and..."

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that's because the Roman Rite is referred to as the Roman Catholic Church

it doesn't matter that much anyways... as long as the word "Catholic" is in there somewhere

Philothei said:

To be totally honest here ... I think unity is more than just EO and RC... what do y'all think? I mean we as EO do pray for the unification of "all Churches of God" Lungs only cover two churches of what I gather ....but could be wrong

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I think if some can drop the superiority in thinking that Christianity is Eastern and Eastern Christianity is what's to be evangelized, then we might actually be able to have a conversation here.

This ridiculousness and holding on to it for what, 1200 years is a little much.

If you want reunification and not be the lone ranger out there in the East, then maybe the Orthodox should realize that Christ is not exclusively Eastern.

Montalban said:

Thank you again for providing that link. I've read it and can not see where Gregory excommunicated John the Faster for using the title. Did John stop using the title?

The site keeps repeating that Gregory understood his own power as Pope. Is there any evidence that he exercised that power (in this case)?

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Good question. I looked up what I could, and it seems that the Catholic Encyclopedia has its own article on John the Faster:
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: John the Faster

According to it, it doesn't seem that he was excommunicated by Gregory. However, his assumption of the title and refusal to drop it did severely damage the previously friendly relations between them. It does provide the same explanation of Gregory's objection to the title though.

AS far as Gregory understanding his own power goes, the article seems to provide evidence that Gregory did believe in the papacy having powers over other bishops. For example he wrote the following:

Who doubts that the Church of Constantinople is subject to the Apostolic See?" (Epp., IX, xii, ibid., 957); and again: "I know of no bishop who is not subject to the Apostolic See" (ibid.)

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Further proof of this would be that he was perfectly comfortable chastising the patriarch of Constantinople for assuming the ecumenical patriarch title. However, it appears he did not exercise the full extent of that power in trying to excommunicate John. He may have threatened to, but it doesn't seem that he followed through.

benedictaoo said:

I think if some can drop the superiority in thinking that Christianity is Eastern and Eastern Christianity is what's to be evangelized, then we might actually be able to have a conversation here.

This ridiculousness and holding on to it for what, 1200 years is a little much.

If you want reunification and not be the lone ranger out there in the East, then maybe the Orthodox should realize that Christ is not exclusively Eastern.

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I think my EO brothers and sisters may be overplaying the "we don't need a second lung" thing... To be blunt, we absolutely do need both lungs to breath (we need the fullness of the faith), and we absolutely already have them. The issue we have with the two lungs theory is that it implies that, somewhere along the way, the fullness of the Catholicity of the faith was lost. Even for the west this would be true, as between 1054 (or 1204 if you prefer) and 1453 (Florence) there wasn't an Eastern Rite in communion with Rome. You would, then (if you find us so insufficient for not having the western rite) have to admit that, at that time, YOU were insufficient for not having an eastern rite.

In other words, if we insist on "catholic" as meaning "having east and west" then we would BOTH have to admit that we ceased to be "catholic" in the middle ages. Neither church really feels that way, and so we find the two lungs analogy (when pressed) to just fall short as a definition of "catholicity."

Catholicity is not found exclusively within the diversity of one's worship expression, but if you are so concerned about it, then know that there is a Western Rite within Orthodoxy - mostly Anglican communities that have rejoined the Orthodox Church. We have both East and West. And there are WESTERNERS who happen to use the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. I am one of them. But I am no more Eastern than any other person living on the West Coast of the US. CULTURE isn't the same as style of worship either. The Orthodox church IS global, if that's your definition of Catholic, so there isn't a concern there either. We have churches on all continents (except Antarctica, I think), and are more than our mere autocephalous churches.

The word Catholic, though, doesn't mean "all over the world" or "incorporating all peoples." The word Catholic, as used in the Creed, refers to the Church's holistic nature (that it supplies, by God's grace, all things needed for salvation). The word universal (oecumene) is meant to imply "worldwide." But even at the time, this was not literal (rather, it implies that the faith is for the whole world - not in the whole world).

Yet one loses the catholicity of the faith and its universality if one abandons the traditional faith (by which I mean beliefs and practices). If the faith of Nicaea (and pre-Nicaea) was Catholic (holistic / complete) and Universal (intended for all), then it is to THAT faith which we must adhere.

I'm not certain the RCC understands it the same way, but I wanted to clarify what we understand Catholicity to mean, and why we (therefore) reject the two-lungs analogy. It isn't because we don't want the Western Rite, we do - we just want the RCC to confess again what we view as the traditional faith.

Hope that helps, forgive me if I offend...

In Christ,
Macarius

benedictaoo said:

uh huh, I realize you think that.

However, if the East is where it's at, all that plus chips and dip- y'all better get to evangelizing, right? because that's the gig, Christ won't come again until the whole world's evangelized, disciples made of ALL nations, not just those in the east, so, best get busy.

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"To speculate on the date of the Second Coming, even if it be only the year, is to seek to wrest a secret from God that Jesus explicitly states only the Father possesses. Therefore, speculating on the timing of our Lord's return is arrogance bordering on blasphemy. As Bible commentator William Barclay explains, "It is not any man's duty to speculate; it is his duty to prepare himself, and to watch."...The aim of Jesus' discourses on the Second Coming was always to one end: not to give us clues to dates His return, but to exhort us to be prepared.' "Voice in the Wilderness", Vol. 11, No.2 Apr-June 2003, p24 (published by Apostoliki Diakonia Committee Greek Orthodox Parish-Community of Saint George, Brisbane)