- Nov 5, 2011
- 45,309
- 6,870
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Single
Upvote
0
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
As I said, I beg to differ.
But I'm not going to argue with a mod.
I beg to differ: 2 Peter 3:8 is inherently figurative. As a purely literal statement, it would be self-contradictory, in that 365,242 days cannot be the same as 1 day.
The phrase “a thousand” is repeatedly used by the Holy Spirit to describe an indefinite figure/period.
Would it be self-contradictory, if for instance, we were coming from our perspective, like such? That one day(12 AM to 12 AM) is to us as 24 hours(12 AM to 12 AM), and 24 hours(12 AM to 12 AM) as one day(12 AM to 12 AM).
In the same way, but from God's perspective in 2 Peter 3:8, and let's use an example of a thousand years, say 1000 AD to 2000 AD. That one day(1000 AD to 2000 AD) is to the Lord as a thousand years(1000 AD to 2000 AD), and a thousand years(1000 AD to 2000 AD) as one day(1000 AD to 2000 AD).
Per the former is not one day and 24 hours the exact same thing? Why would it be the exact same thing in that example but that a day and a thousand years would not be the exact same thing in the example in 2 Peter 3:8? Why would there be actual logic involved if coming from our perspective, but if coming from God's perspective in 2 Peter 3:8 none of that is based on actual logic?
It seems silly for Peter to be talking about one day then not even providing us with how long one day is meaning. Actually though, he is providing us with how long one day is meaning, so he's not being silly at all by not providing us with that info. He is telling us that a day is a thousand years, the same way, from our perspective, that one would be telling us that one day is meaning 24 hours.
The Holy Spirit never once uses G5507 in that way especially since that Greek word cannot be used in that sense and does not have a figurative "indefinite" definition/meaning. I agree many langues such as English and Hebrew have similar words which can be used figuratively but that is not the case for this certain Greek word. G5507 can only mean a thousand and that's precisely how it is used by the Holy Spirit in the NT.
If you are adamant in interpreting 1,000 years hyper-literally
This particular Greek word does not and can not mean that.
The term "a thousand" is used in most languages in a figurative sense to represent a large number or a large indefinite period. Certain common numbers are frequently used in Scripture as valuable symbols to represent particular divine truths or ideas; a thousand and ten thousand are two such numbers. They are employed as familiar figures to impress deep spiritual principles in a distinctly comprehendible and identifiable way. It is not necessarily the exact numerical size of the figure outlined that is important but the spiritual idea that it represents. In fact, English dictionaries recognise the indefinite nature of a thousand defining it variously as a very large number or a great number or amount. This use is very common in our daily language.
The phrase “a thousand” comes up a lot in every day conversation. For example: “a picture is worth a thousand words” is a familiar saying. This simply tells us that much can be gleaned from a still print. An image can be more revealling and more influential than a substantial amount of text.
Another well-known phrase that some use is: “A journey of a thousand miles starts with one step.” This suggests that the greatest of endeavours starts with the first move – a great undertaking must start somewhere.
We may in passing say: “I have a thousand things to do today.” However, the expression is no way intended to delineate an exact number, but rather a notion. It is simply a figure of speech.
Tourists are welcomed to Dublin, Ireland by “Welcome to City of a Thousand Welcomes.” This is simply a figurative expression epitomising the friendliness and hospitality of the place.
People also use ‘a thousand’ as a round figure or as a phrase to describe a general amount. If they had $1053 (literally pronounced one thousand and fifty three dollars) it wouldn't be uncommon or unusual to say I had a thousand dollars. They would simply round it off to a familiar even number. This is where 10, 100, 1,000, and 10,000 are often used. These are not wooden numbers.
This figure is also used to describe a long indeterminate period of power and government. Hitler boasted that the Third Reich would last a thousand years. The Nazi Party used the terms Drittes Reich and Tausendjähriges Reich (Thousand-Year Reich) to describe the rule, power and vision of the Fascist kingdom. It wasn’t that Hitler limited his wicked dream to that period, but that it symbolically represented a long period of unparalleled supremacy.
Churchill also infamously said of the victory of the war, “if we fail, the whole world, including the United States, including all that we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new Dark Age, made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights of perverted science. Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves that if the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will say, ‘This was their finest hour’” (Churchill in his speech on June 18, 1940).
People often mistakenly concentrate upon the actual figure revealed rather than what that figure represents. One hundred and forty and four thousand on the other hand, whilst rarely used (being found only in the deeply symbolic book of Revelation), is similarly used, only in an increased manner to impress a number that is completely unfathomable by human capability. The figure of one hundred and forty and four thousand but be viewed in relation to the biblical use of a thousand representing vastness and 12 representing authority.
If you are adamant in interpreting 1,000 years hyper-literally, how long is the “one hour” that the beast reigns with the “ten kings” in Revelation 17:12 is? i.e. is it sixty minutes?
Right back at you then.
Mark 5:42 And straightway the damsel arose, and walked; for she was of the age of twelve years. And they were astonished with a great astonishment.
In this random example since I would assume you are interpreting this 12 years hyper-literally, or at least I would hope you would be, (using some of your own words)"how long is the “one hour” that the beast reigns with the “ten kings” in Revelation 17:12 is? i.e. is it sixty minutes"?
The point being, what does how one might interpret an amount of years specified, have to do with how that same one might interpret the hour in Revelation 17:12? As to this hour I would hope one would at least be using common sense when interpreting how long this hour is meaning, that it's obviously not meaning a literal 60 minutes. But if a thousand years were to mean a literal thousand years, what exactly is it about that that would make that nonsensical?
Some are trying to tell us that chilioi(5507) does not mean a thousand, but means a plural of thousands. Let's put that to the test, then.
dischilioi
from diV - dis 1364 and cilioi - chilioi 5507; two thousand:--two thousand
Mark 5:13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand(dischilioi); ) and were choked in the sea.
trischilioi
tris-khil'-ee-oy
from triV - tris 5151 and cilioi - chilioi 5507; three times a thousand:--three thousand.
Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand(trischilioi) souls.
tetrakischilioi
tet-rak-is-khil'-ee-oy
from the multiplicative adverb of tessareV - tessares 5064 and cilioi - chilioi 5507; four times a thousand:--four thousand.
Matthew 16:10 Neither the seven loaves of the four thousand(tetrakischilioi), and how many baskets ye took up?
This should be plenty to make my point. It only stands to reason, that if dischilioi means 2000, trischilioi means 3000, tetrakischilioi means 4000, this obviously means chilioi must mean 1000.
To further prove this, consider the following.
If two in front of a thousand equals 2000, three in front of a thousand equals 3000, four in front of a thousand equals 4000, how much does a thousand equal?
If dis in front of chilioi equals 2000, tris in front of chilioi equals 3000, tetrakis in front of chilioi equals 4000, how much does chilioi equal?
This right here will prove beyond a shadow of a doubt as to whether someone is trying to fool others or not. Because if one answers the former correctly, and I'm sure one would, but then answers the latter differently, that's all the proof anyone needs to know without a doubt that this one is trying to fool others about what chilioi means in the NT.
I will make a deal with you since one of my arguments are as follows. In the Bible, in both the OT and NT, when a cardinal number is followed by years, the amount of years specified are interpreted as literal years every single time without exception. It only stands to reason, that if thousand is followed by years, the same has to be true for it as well, that the amount specified has to be the literal amount of years it is indicating.
The deal I will make with you is this. Find at least one passage in all of the Bible, where a cardinal number is followed by years, excluding thousand, where the amount of years specified are not literally meaning the amount specified, thus proving that a cardinal number followed by years doesn't always mean the literal amount every single time, therefore indicating one can't apply this same pattern with 100% certainty to a thousand when it is followed by years, and I will then admit right here in this thread that I am wrong to insist a thousand years have to be a literal thousand years based on this pattern with other numbers followed by years like this.
My posts 4, 16, 19, and 25 deal with and attached issues. Please address them. You seem to want to ignore the symbolic usage of 1000 in scripture and also the highly symbolic nature of Revelation 20.
One of the main reasons I first questioned Premil was that no other NT writer mentions a literal 1,000 following the coming of Christ. If this is supposed to be what Premils suggest - namely the greatest age outside of the new heavens and new earth - then why did none of the other writers allude to it? We don't have one single second coming passage that indicates that there will be 1000 years following.
When we examine Revelation 19 it is totally climatic. Contrary to what you both intimate, we are looking at at the wrath of God been poured out upon the wicked.
What about corroboration? Where is this "thousand years" mentioned elsewhere in the Book? Nowhere. It is clearly a symbolic description.
- Number of passages in the Bible mentioning a thousand year reign = 1
- Number of passages in the Bible mentioning a thousand year on this earth = 0
- Number of passages in the Bible mentioning a thousand year reign of the natural Jews on this earth = 0
these sort of greek riddles intrigue me. I tried to check your sources but I was unable to find a single example for 5505 or 5507 in the singular.Chillias [5505] is singular
Chillia [5507] is plural
To insist on a literal rendering, this word needs prefixed by a number to denote exact value. However, in the case of 2 Peter 3 and Revelation 20 no number precedes the word chilia thus leaving it indefinite. There are no grounds therefore to insist it represents a literal “one thousand” and no proof that we are looking at one thousand years. It simply doesn’t state such. Notwithstanding, there is a noun meaning "a thousand,” in the sense of a (singular) group of 1000: “chilias.” This is used, in the plural, for phrases in Scripture like “the number of the men was five thousand.”
Revelation 14:20 Adj-GMP
GRK: ἀπὸ σταδίων χιλίων ἑξακοσίων
KJV: by the space of a thousand [and] six hundred
INT: to the distance of stadia a thousand six hundred
Revelation 20:2 Adj-ANP
GRK: ἔδησεν αὐτὸν χίλια ἔτη
NAS: and bound him for a thousand years;
KJV: bound him a thousand years,
INT: bound him a thousand years
Revelation 20:3 Adj-NNP
GRK: τελεσθῇ τὰ χίλια ἔτη μετὰ
NAS: until the thousand years
KJV: till the thousand years
INT: were completed the thousand years after these
Revelation 20:4 Adj-ANP
GRK: τοῦ χριστοῦ χίλια ἔτη
NAS: with Christ for a thousand years.
KJV: with Christ a thousand years.
INT: Christ a thousand years
Revelation 20:5 Adj-NNP
GRK: τελεσθῇ τὰ χίλια ἔτη αὕτη
NAS: until the thousand years
KJV: until the thousand years
INT: might have been completed the thousand years This [is]
Revelation 20:6 Adj-ANP
GRK: αὐτοῦ τὰ χίλια ἔτη
NAS: and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
KJV: with him a thousand years.
INT: him a thousand years
Revelation 20:7 Adj-NNP
GRK: τελεσθῇ τὰ χίλια ἔτη λυθήσεται
NAS: When the thousand years are completed,
KJV: when the thousand years
INT: might have been completed the thousand years will be released
Luke 14:31 Adj-DFP
GRK: ἐν δέκα χιλιάσιν ὑπαντῆσαι τῷ
NAS: with ten thousand [men] to encounter
KJV: ten thousand to meet
INT: with ten thousand to meet the [one]
Luke 14:31 Adj-NFP
GRK: μετὰ εἴκοσι χιλιάδων ἐρχομένῳ ἐπ'
NAS: against him with twenty thousand?
KJV: with twenty thousand?
INT: with twenty thousand who comes against
Acts 4:4 Adj-NFP
GRK: ἀνδρῶν ὡς χιλιάδες πέντε
NAS: to be about five thousand.
KJV: about five thousand.
INT: men about thousand five
1 Corinthians 10:8 Adj-NFP
GRK: εἴκοσι τρεῖς χιλιάδες
NAS: and twenty-three thousand fell
KJV: three and twenty thousand.
INT: twenty three thousand
Revelation 5:11 Adj-NFP
GRK: μυριάδων καὶ χιλιάδες χιλιάδων
NAS: of myriads, and thousands of thousands,
KJV: and thousands of thousands;
INT: of ten thousands and thousand of thousands
Revelation 5:11 Adj-NFP
GRK: καὶ χιλιάδες χιλιάδων
NAS: and thousands of thousands,
KJV: and thousands of thousands;
INT: and thousand of thousands
Revelation 7:4 Adj-NFP
GRK: τεσσεράκοντα τέσσαρες χιλιάδες ἐσφραγισμένοι ἐκ
NAS: and forty-four thousand sealed
KJV: [and] forty [and] four thousand of all
INT: forty four thousand sealed out of
Revelation 7:5 Adj-NFP
GRK: Ἰούδα δώδεκα χιλιάδες ἐσφραγισμένοι ἐκ
NAS: twelve thousand [were] sealed,
KJV: twelve thousand. Of
INT: of Judah twelve thousand sealed out of
Revelation 7:5 Adj-NFP
GRK: Ῥουβὴν δώδεκα χιλιάδες ἐκ φυλῆς
NAS: twelve thousand, from the tribe
KJV: twelve thousand. Of
INT: of Reuben twelve thousand out of [the] tribe
Revelation 7:5 Adj-NFP
GRK: Γὰδ δώδεκα χιλιάδες
NAS: of Gad twelve thousand,
KJV: [were] sealed twelve thousand.
INT: of Gad twelve thousand
Revelation 7:6 Adj-NFP
GRK: Ἀσὴρ δώδεκα χιλιάδες ἐκ φυλῆς
NAS: twelve thousand, from the tribe
KJV: twelve thousand. Of
INT: of Asher twelve thousand out of [the] tribe
Revelation 7:6 Adj-NFP
GRK: Νεφθαλὶμ δώδεκα χιλιάδες ἐκ φυλῆς
NAS: twelve thousand, from the tribe
KJV: twelve thousand. Of
INT: of Naphtali twelve thousand out of [the] tribe
Revelation 7:6 Adj-NFP
GRK: Μανασσῆ δώδεκα χιλιάδες
NAS: of Manasseh twelve thousand,
KJV: [were] sealed twelve thousand.
INT: of Manasseh twelve thousand
Revelation 7:7 Adj-NFP
GRK: Συμεὼν δώδεκα χιλιάδες ἐκ φυλῆς
NAS: twelve thousand, from the tribe
KJV: twelve thousand. Of
INT: of Simeon twelve thousand out of [the] tribe
Revelation 7:7 Adj-NFP
GRK: Λευὶ δώδεκα χιλιάδες ἐκ φυλῆς
NAS: twelve thousand, from the tribe
KJV: twelve thousand. Of
INT: of Levi twelve thousand out of [the] tribe
Revelation 7:7 Adj-NFP
GRK: Ἰσσαχὰρ δώδεκα χιλιάδες
NAS: of Issachar twelve thousand,
KJV: [were] sealed twelve thousand.
INT: of Issachar twelve thousand
Revelation 7:8 Adj-NFP
GRK: Ζαβουλὼν δώδεκα χιλιάδες ἐκ φυλῆς
NAS: twelve thousand, from the tribe
KJV: twelve thousand. Of
INT: of Zebulun twelve thousand out of [the] tribe
Revelation 7:8 Adj-NFP
GRK: Ἰωσὴφ δώδεκα χιλιάδες ἐκ φυλῆς
NAS: twelve thousand, from the tribe
KJV: twelve thousand. Of
INT: of Joseph twelve thousand out of [the] tribe
Revelation 7:8 Adj-NFP
GRK: Βενιαμὶν δώδεκα χιλιάδες ἐσφραγισμένοι
NAS: twelve thousand [were] sealed.
KJV: [were] sealed twelve thousand.
INT: of Benjamin twelve thousand sealed
Revelation 11:13 Adj-NFP
GRK: ὀνόματα ἀνθρώπων χιλιάδες ἑπτά καὶ
NAS: seven thousand people
KJV: of men seven thousand: and the remnant
INT: names of men thousand seven And
Revelation 14:1 Adj-NFP
GRK: τεσσεράκοντα τέσσαρες χιλιάδες ἔχουσαι τὸ
NAS: and forty-four thousand, having
KJV: forty [and] four thousand, having his
INT: [and] forty four thousand having the
Revelation 14:3 Adj-NFP
GRK: τεσσεράκοντα τέσσαρες χιλιάδες οἱ ἠγορασμένοι
NAS: and forty-four thousand who had been purchased
KJV: [and] four thousand, which
INT: [and] forty four thousand who have been purchased
Revelation 21:16 Adj-NFP
GRK: σταδίων δώδεκα χιλιάδων τὸ μῆκος
KJV: twelve thousand furlongs.
INT: stadia twelve thousand the length
5507 (chilioi) is an adjective and adjectives are not inherently singular or plural, they inherit their head noun's number as well as case and gender so it's a bit of an arbitrary discussion. In any event, there isn't a single biblical example in the singular.
5505 (chilias) is a noun and nouns can be singular or plural (the example "chilias" is singular) however there isn't a single biblical example where it is singular. They are all plural.
The passage should be translated as it is agreed by basically all translations "a thousand years"
these sort of greek riddles intrigue me. I tried to check your sources but I was unable to find a single example for 5505 or 5507 in the singular.
5507 (chilioi) is an adjective and adjectives are not inherently singular or plural, they inherit their head noun's number as well as case and gender so it's a bit of an arbitrary discussion. In any event, there isn't a single biblical example in the singular.
5505 (chilias) is a noun and nouns can be singular or plural (the example "chilias" is singular) however there isn't a single biblical example where it is singular. They are all plural.
Now I also checked your quote "This is used, in the plural, for phrases in Scripture like 'the number of the men was five thousand.'" So I checked all the gospels where the feeding of the 5000 occurs (Matthew 14:21, Mark 6:44, Luke 9:14 and John 6:10) and each example is an adjective as well as plural and masculine (because it's addressing "men"). The word used is "pentakischilioi" [Strongs 4000] which is five-thousand and you're right it is used in the plural and I know it's rooted in the same word but it's a poor example to make your case as it is specific to 5000. but not that it matters, there isn't an example of the singular in scripture.
the strongest case would be when it is a noun because nouns can be plural or singular and this would make the case far clearly. Revelation uses the nouns many times and even uses it to describe "thousands of-thousands" (5:11) but otherwise, it is specific with another number like "forty-four thousand sealed". With the verses that are more the hot topics (Rev 20) they are all adjectives so their singular/plural parts only have meaning when we know what their nouns are. In each case, their nouns are "years". so it is "thousand(plural) year(plural)".
if the meaning is to convey "one thousand years" then this is correct. If the meaning is to convey "thousands of years" then this is incorrect. The latter should be 2 nouns thousand(normative, feminine, plural) year(genitive, neuter, plural). If the meaning is to convey an indefinite amount of "thousand years" it should probably use an indefinite pronoun to explicitly do this like "any" (greek doesn't have indefinite articles like English) however omitting this makes it quite cryptic or confusing if the indefinite is the intention like it's a code John chooses to keep secret and there's no reason to think this. The passage should be translated as it is agreed by basically all translations "a thousand years"
Any number adjective greater than 1 is going to be plural, for obvious reasons: it's talking about more than 1 of something.
No New Testament example.
But in the LXX, the Greek version of the Old Testament, it can be found in the singular in Judges 6:15: And Gedeon said to him, [Be gracious] with me, my Lord: whereby shall I save Israel? behold, my thousand (chilias) is weakened in Manasse, and I am the least in my father’s house.
But the question is still whether that is a literal thousand, in the sense of exactly 365,242 days.
I agree biblical pattern usage is important when looking at biblical understanding and this may not strictly follow other patterns. For example, Biblical Hades is not the same as Greek Mythology Hades and if we marry the two we're going to get some odd beliefs. Do you mind sharing your source(s)?My source was a Greek secular authority. I realize Scripture has its own pattern of usage. I appreciate your thoughts.
I agree biblical pattern usage is important when looking at biblical understanding and this may not strictly follow other patterns. For example, Biblical Hades is not the same as Greek Mythology Hades and if we marry the two we're going to get some odd beliefs. Do you mind sharing your source(s)?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?