Why are some christians calvinist?

[PastorJoey]

Why are people Calvinist?
What would you say, from a word of faith perspective, are the underlying motivations of a person to believe the calvinistic doctrine. I am currently dealing with this issue and I believe I have some of the answers to why.
1. Innacurate understanding of what it means for God to be sovereign.
2. Lack of understanding of the authority of the believer.
These are the 2 main underlying reasons, namely lack of understanding of the authority of the believer.
I believe it is equally important to know why a person believes what they believe as it is to know what they believe. Its getting to the root of the issue.
The purpose of this post, well first I want to know your thoughts. Secondly, I believe, through others input, can educate many to know how to approach those who are calvinists or influenced by them.
Your thoughts are appreciated. Thanks,
PastorJ

 

[jazzbird]

MOD NOTE: Moved from Denomination Specific Ethics to WOF as it is a more appropriate forum for this discussion.

 

[godson777]

I am first interested in what calvanist theology is. I have a rough idea of the ideas that John Calvin put forward, but before we go on, could we first establish what the main ideas of calvanism are?

 

[PastorJoey]

Sure Godson, Basically Calvinist hold the beliefs of a man named John Calvin.
They believe that God chooses those who will be saved and chooses those who will not be saved. They believe further that Jesus' sacrifice only atoned for the sins of those that He 'chose' to be saved. Also, they believe that those He has chose cannot resist His calling. There are many other beliefs they hold, but this is the most crucial one to their doctrine. They dont accept that Jesus died for the whole world because they feel that it would infringe on His almightyness or sovereignty for someone to resist His will for them to be saved. So, their solution for this delima is to hold to a doctrine that leaves no room for mans free will to be involved. They wouldnt like this analogy, but in their view, we are basically nothing more than 'robots' programmed to do His will. My question is if He has preprogramed a person to be saved, then why didnt He go ahead and finish the job and make them perfectly submitted to His will, never to sin again?
Pastor J

 

[godson777]

True.

I think it comes down to a misunderstanding of the Soverrinty of God. There are three main things that because they don't understand them, they have gotten into this false doctrine:
1. Satan is the God of this world
2. God has given us free will
3. God is bound by His Word because He would cease to exist if He was to break a covenant or lie.

 

[PastorJoey]

Hi Godson

Thanks I liked your last post.
You are right. I like what you said about them not understanding about satan.
The 2 main reasons I see is:
1. Their lack of understanding of God's sovereignty.
2. Their lack of understanding of the authority of the believer.
PS Did you see my reply to you about the spiritual gifts?
PJ

 

[godson777]

Yes I did. Thankyou very much. It is very interesting. I have now come to the understanding that there are three catagories of gifts:
1. 5 Fold Ministry gifts
2. Spiritual Gifts or Manifestations of the Spirit
3. Motivational/Grace gifts

I have found an incredibly anointed teacher on the internet at: http://www.eaglevision.com.my/complete.htm
and he has a remarkably accurate and thorough teaching series on the gifts of the Holy Spirit and things like that (as well as many other topics). I believe that as I get into his series on this subject further insight, knowlege and revelation will be given to me.

Be blessed!

 

[victoryword]

Why are people Calvinist?
What would you say, from a word of faith perspective, are the underlying motivations of a person to believe the calvinistic doctrine. I am currently dealing with this issue and I believe I have some of the answers to why.
1. Innacurate understanding of what it means for God to be sovereign.
2. Lack of understanding of the authority of the believer.
These are the 2 main underlying reasons, namely lack of understanding of the authority of the believer.
I believe it is equally important to know why a person believes what they believe as it is to know what they believe. Its getting to the root of the issue.
The purpose of this post, well first I want to know your thoughts. Secondly, I believe, through others input, can educate many to know how to approach those who are calvinists or influenced by them.
Your thoughts are appreciated. Thanks,
PastorJ

PastorJ

I began looking into Calvinism about five years agao when I was doing research on the Faith Movement. First of all, I 100% agree with your post. I really believe that Calvinists have a difficult time with your two underlying reasons which is why the critics of the faith movement that embrace Calvinism in some form (John MacArthur, Curtis Crenshaw, Hank Hanegraaff, and it seems even a Pentecostal like D. R. McConnell to a certain extent) focus a lot of their ammunition on their claim that faith teachers deny God's sovereignty and their belief that we make man a boss over God (their distortion of our teaching that the believer has authority). I can say more on this but I will hold back for right.

This is not to say that only Calvinists criticize the Faith Movement. Dave Hunt is a WoF critic but he has written a book refuting Calvinism. His is certainly NOT the best refutation I have read on the subject but it seems to be the most popular. I also know of one strongly Arminian brother who has written a book criticizing the movement. I have yet to read his book but I may do so just to see what type of arguments our Arminian brothers have against us, especially since I have always believed that much faith teaching has it's origins in Wesleyan Arminianism and Finneyism.

Anyway, my research has led me to these conclusions concerning Calvinism and its adherents:

1. Calvinism is portrayed as quintessential orthodoxy. Anyone who does not embrace Calvinism is basically a heretic. Many Calvinists today are not as harsh on Calvinism as they used to be but even people like R. C. Sproul still refer to non-Calvinists as "semi-pelagian" (For those who don't know, Pelagius was a monk who went overboard on the Free-will issue in Augustine's day, thus being branded a heretic).

2. Because of number 2, people do naturally do not want to be branded as a heretic and want to be aligned with orthodoxy. By embracing Calvinism, people have a sense of "belonging" to a "pure unadulterated" theological system. They have the assurance that they are truly "orthodox." Due to the fact that many great men such as Jonathan Edwards, Charles Spurgeon, and others were self-proclaimed Calvinists, many people feel that they have a strong heritage by aligning themselves with this system. No one could believe that maybe God used these men in spite of their Calvinism and not because of it. By the way, I love Charles Spurgeon and enjoyed many of his sermons. He even taught some stuff that many anti-wofers disparage.

3. Calvinism is intellectually appealing due to its supposedly coherent and logical system. While I personally find it incoherent and illogical (and I find it very much anti-scriptural), it has been promoted by some of the most educated men/theologians throughout the centuries. It was the staple of orthodoxy at Princeton under men like Benjamin B. Warfield (who also strongly promoted the doctrine of cessation of the Charismata in the last century).

I believe that the Faith Movement (perhaps unknowingly) provided opposition against three prevailing theologies: Calvinism, Cessationism and Liberalism. One need not wonder why.

 

[PastorJoey]

Thank you very much victory word,
Your imput has helped me much in my studies as well as confirmed them.
Pastor J

 

[PastorMike]

As an ex calvanist I know that I believed in the sovereignty of God and that God can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants to whomever he wants...but this is not true.

God cannot go against his word for one thing...if God says that whosoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved...can God then change his mind...I am not saving anyone today...or I never meant for you to be saved... No! God does what he said he would do in his word and so God's sovereignty is limited to what God said he would do...

I also believed that Jesus only dies for the elect but this is also not true...God gave his one and only son for the "whosever believes"...there are many other things but these are the main ones...God bless, Mike.

 

[victoryword]

As an ex calvanist I know that I believed in the sovereignty of God and that God can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants to whomever he wants...but this is not true.

God cannot go against his word for one thing...if God says that whosoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved...can God then change his mind...I am not saving anyone today...or I never meant for you to be saved... No! God does what he said he would do in his word and so God's sovereignty is limited to what God said he would do...

I also believed that Jesus only dies for the elect but this is also not true...God gave his one and only son for the "whosever believes"...there are many other things but these are the main ones...God bless, Mike.

Excellent post Mike. It's always great hearing from someone who actually embraced the system at one time and saw its flaws.

Calvinism (or Augustinianism or Reformed Christianity - all depends on who you talk to) centers every thing on their version of God's sovereignty. The worst part is that none of the church fathers accepted this type of teaching before Augustine had his famous debate with Pelagius. All because Pelagius went over board on the "Free-Will" doctrine, Augustine decided to embrace the opposite extreme. Luther would do the same in his debate with ERasmus by appealing to Augustine. John Calvin heavily relied on Augustine's teachings when he wrote his "Institutes." Anyone who reads them will see Augustine appealed to them quite a bit. I was shocked when I read some of Calvin's statements.

Many of our Calvinist brethren would lead us to believe that these doctrines were accepted by all until Arminus opposed them about 50 years later. However, Augustine had a number of equal clergy dispute him and so did Calvin some centuries later. Unfortunately, people like Augustine and Calvin used the the power of the government (both of them ironically had power. Many referred to Calvin as the pope of Geneva) to enforce comformity to their doctrinal position.

The most unfortunate thing is that many Christians sort of embrace the Calvinistic "sovereignty of God" doctrine in some form or another. The oft heard statement, "God is in control" can be heard from amny Christians. Anyone who opposes such a statement is looked at as blasphemous. A person can get raped but someone will say, "God is in control." How is that? Was he controlling the rapists? We truly have to be careful when we make religious sounding statements like that.

God has all power and He makes promises, but gives His children (and all men) autonomy. We decide to follow God or to rebel. Thankfully, this is not just some kind of illusion that God has worked behind the scenes as the sovereignty doctrine would imply.

 

[godson777]

Awesome post Victoryword! Great!!!

 

[81signs]

Why are people Calvinist?
What would you say, from a word of faith perspective, are the underlying motivations of a person to believe the calvinistic doctrine. I am currently dealing with this issue and I believe I have some of the answers to why.
1. Innacurate understanding of what it means for God to be sovereign.

An answer without evidence? Zzzzzzzz

2. Lack of understanding of the authority of the believer.

An answer without evidence? Zzzzzzzz

These are the 2 main underlying reasons,

Which I could say back to you. For a "pastor" your not very good.

namely lack of understanding of the authority of the believer.
I believe it is equally important to know why a person believes what they believe as it is to know what they believe. Its getting to the root of the issue.

duh.

The purpose of this post, well first I want to know your thoughts.

Look up the word predestination in the Bible and get over what it means. Look up Galatians and read the whole thing, how in the ___ can you miss an entire chapter on how you can't obey God's law to get saved, and how in the ___ can you miss the many verses on God WORKING IN US, CONTROLLING US, CHANGING US, HIS WILL BEING DONE, and on and on, I mean damn, must be blind. You see the root of your issue and others like you, is that you want to take credit for your salvation, it makes you angry (for no logical reason) to face a God who controls the universe. So you can't understand how you are responsible for your sins when God controls everything? Get over it! Were not God, just obey him, and don't wine, is that hard? Read romans 8 and 9, God is sovereign over who gets saved, not us, the end, THE END.

Secondly, I believe, through others input, can educate many to know how to approach those who are calvinists or influenced by them.

You say hi, are you one of those calvanist people who are infected with the God is sovereign disease, ew you mean you actually believe God has a right to control what he creates? Gross man!

Your thoughts are appreciated. Thanks,
PastorJ

Insane

 

[godson777]

Maybe if you manifested some of the fruit of the spirit and showed a little more spiritual maturity we might care about what you have to say. Otherwise...

 

[victoryword]

Maybe if you manifested some of the fruit of the spirit and showed a little more spiritual maturity we might care about what you have to say. Otherwise...

Yep. You can add that guy's post to the many reasons why I could never embrace Calvinism. The main reason, of course, is that nearly all Calvinist concepts are lacking any real Scriptural support. They do a lot of "prooftexting" and re-interpretting but when their theology is examined in the context of God's full revelation, it definitely comes up short.

But from my internet discussions with a number of the "Reformed" people, the fruit is also lacking. The intellectualism inherent within this theology seems to give its adherents an air of arrogance. And look at that post. This Calvinist is using curse words. So much for "meekness". We should all be thanking him for showing us why we should reject the Calvinist system of theology.

 

[godson777]

True.

By the way, what is a "Reformed" person, and what is the intellectualism within that theology?

 

[victoryword]

True.

By the way, what is a "Reformed" person, and what is the intellectualism within that theology?

Some who embrace Calvinist/Augustinian concepts prefer not to be identified as "Calvinists." Since many of these same concepts were also taught by St. Augustine, Zwingli and Martin Luther, and is systematized in the Westminster Confession, they do not want to be called Calvinists. Since Calvinist theology was predominant during the reformation period (when Luther and others were moving away from Catholicism and attempting to "reform" the church) then those who embrace the system prefer to be identified as "Reformed".

If you ever see or hear the phrase "Reformed Theology" just think of Calvinism and you'll understand.

The whole TULIP system is based on, not REVELATION of God's Word, but on people like Calvin who intellectually put together a system of theology based primarily from the writings of Augustine (who many claim was the church's first true theologian). He then "prooftexted" (which means to come up with a belief and then find Scripture that will support that belief. It is opposite from just reading the Bible to receive what God has to say. The former makes God say what you want Him to say). You will find his compendium of beliefs in several volumes of a work titled "The Institutes of the Christian Religion."

Anyone who expressed any disagreement with Calvin and who was within his governmental powers paid a heavy price for their disagreement (just like Augustine before him). There were many prisoned, tortured, and some even put to death. One man who opposed him, Michael Servetus, was burned very slowly at the stake.

This same spirit of persecution seems to exist in many of the followers of Calvin to this very day.

 

[PastorJoey]

Hi VW,
How have you been?
I read that Calvin had a guy put to death for his heresies (the underlying motive probably more because he was a threat to his own purposes). I first read about some of this in Lairdon's book of Reformers. What is your understanding on this. If you have a pre written post on this will do fine. The thought that came to my mind, is the apple doesnt fall far from the tree. It is the majority of Calvinists that are assassinating the character & validity of the WOFer's.
Thanks,
Pastor J

 

[victoryword]

Hi VW,
How have you been?
I read that Calvin had a guy put to death for his heresies (the underlying motive probably more because he was a threat to his own purposes). I first read about some of this in Lairdon's book of Reformers. What is your understanding on this. If you have a pre written post on this will do fine. The thought that came to my mind, is the apple doesnt fall far from the tree. It is the majority of Calvinists that are assassinating the character & validity of the WOFer's.
Thanks,
Pastor J

PastorJ

I have Liairdon's first book but not the one on the reformers, at least not yet. I may get it soon.

There are a number of web sites that can give you info on Michael Servetus, who is the most famous Christian executed under Calvin's regime, though he was not the only one. However, I will give you a link to web page that gives some brief history on it:

http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/servetus.html

The above link shares my own personal grievances with Calvin's heinous act. Calvin was a murderer and 1 John 3:15 tells us that no murderer has eternal life in him. Today's Calvinists attempt to excuse Calvin's actions by appealing to the times that he lived in, but that is just BALONEY. If he had the life of God abiding in him and was walking in that life then he would NEVER had done what he did, regardless of the times. However, Calvin's forefather, Augustine, persecuted the "Donatists" because they also broke away from his established religion.

Calvinists have been persecuting those opposed to them ever since. The Remonstrants (who followed Arminius' teachings that oposed Calvinism) were severely persecuted by the Calvinists some many years after the death of Calvin (and he suffered a very horrible death by the way).

People like Hank Hanegraaff (who embraces many of the Calvinistic concepts) reminds me of people like Calvin. If it were not for the laws that we have today, I am sure that Word-Faithers would have been hunted down and burned for our beliefs. Unfortunately, they only have the power of their books and the Evangelical market, which has all proven to be ineffective in stopping the Faith MOvement.

But let me conclude by saying that there are some Arminians who have written material against us too.

 

[godson777]

Would you say that the majority of the faith movement is arminian? If not, what are they?