Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

he-man · Jul 20, 2018

Dorothy Mae said:
If destruction is everlasting it isn’t over ever. Now these hated the presence of the Lord so that too is their desire. No punishment occurs when men’s desires are met.

Ever read what God commanded some to do? Ever read about Sodom? Pretty brutal end. Do you think God is a wimp? Do you know He has commanded war? Hand to hand combat, every minute brutal.
When Jesus took a WHIP and used it in men, it was brutal. Words would have been meek and mild.

You do not seem to know the difference between brutal and Justice:
2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Revelation 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

God is not unjust but gives everyone according to their works.

Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Psalms 7:9 Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins.

Proverbs 21:15 It is joy to the just to do judgment: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.

Hos 14:9 Who is wise, and he shall understand these things? prudent, and he shall know them? for the ways of the LORD are right, and the just shall walk in them: but the transgressors shall fall therein.

Matthew 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Why do you try to test God?
Romans 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Isaiah 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Jeremiah 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

Cannot I do with you as this potter? - Have I not a right to do with a people whom I have created as reason and justice may require? If they do not answer my intentions, may I not reject and destroy them; and act as this potter, make a new vessel out of that which at first did not succeed in his hands? [CLARKE]

behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand; and he can form and fashion it as he pleases, and it is not in the power of the clay to resist and hinder him: [GILL]

JackRT · Jul 20, 2018

"annihilation in hell" is a contradiction terms. They are two very different ideas.

Der Alte · Jul 20, 2018

JackRT said:
"annihilation in hell" is a contradiction terms. They are two very different ideas.

I agree. Why would God send someone to hell to annihilate them? God is capable of annihilating people right here in this world. "Apolummi", the word most often translated as destroy/destruction, 68% of the occurrences cannot mean annihilate.

he-man · Jul 20, 2018

JackRT said:
"annihilation in hell" is a contradiction terms. They are two very different ideas.

hell= grave

Der Alte · Jul 20, 2018

In the OT the word often translated "hell" is שְׁאוֹל/sheol. While it does sometimes refer to the grave, sheol also refers to something other than the grave.

Proverbs 23:13-14
(13) Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
(14) Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

If a parent punishes a child that will not save the child from the grave.

Anto9us · Jul 20, 2018

Consciousness in Hades is clear from the parable in Luke 16. The rich man is conscious.

JackRT · Jul 20, 2018

he-man said:
hell= grave

In Christian theology "hell" carries much more meaning than just the grave. The body is indeed in the grave but the soul lives on in eternal torment. The concept of "annihilation" is that the soul is extinguished as well as the body.

Der Alte · Jul 20, 2018

Anto9us said:
Consciousness in Hades is clear from the parable in Luke 16. The rich man is conscious.

Some type of conscious awareness in sheol is also clear from these two passages in the OT.
.....In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.

In this passage God, himself, is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking etc. These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
.....Some will argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative.
.....The Hebrew word שאול/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.
.....Here is another passage where God, Himself, is speaking and people who are dead, in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.

Dorothy Mae · Jul 20, 2018

he-man said:
You do not seem to know the difference between brutal and Justice:

It is always a sign of a weak argument when the first thing you say to someone you have never interacted with is a personal insult. Neverthelss I will answer.

2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Now this addresses why some will suffer after judgement. It does not address HOW. What you are doing is mixing up the how and the why. Let's look at a non-biblical example. War is brutal. No one who went through one thinks any differently. If a man kills his enemy with his bear hands and a pocket knife, that is going to be a brutal encounter. But it doesn't follow that either were evil or doing moral wrong. In war soldiers kill each other. Modern war makes it less brutal for those with the powerful weapons. War in old days was brutal for both parties. But nevertheless not unjust necessarily. Each man knows what it means to be soldier.

Another example. A man can be sentenced to death for his crimes. That is justice. But if the means is cutting off bits and pieces of him until he expires, that is brutal. See the difference? You are mixing them up. For Sodom, the judgement was just but nevertheless brutal.

God is not unjust but gives everyone according to their works.

Sometimes a man of God killed wicked men with a sword...pretty brutal. But still just. You seem to think that God does not give the word for brutal treatment to wicked people. I think being killed by fire reigning down on you is brutal. Does not mean it is unjust.

Why do you try to test God?

I don't. I disagree with you because you are wrong. But you are not God. I can test you or disagree with you and God is not disturbed necessarily. THis you also need to realize. Your view is not God's on this.

Cannot I do with you as this potter? - Have I not a right to do with a people whom I have created as reason and justice may require? If they do not answer my intentions, may I not reject and destroy them; and act as this potter, make a new vessel out of that which at first did not succeed in his hands? [CLARKE]

Sometimes He chooses a brutal way.

And if you cannot express your views in your own words, do not bother to write. It is distasteful to try to have a discussion with some unknown author somewhere instead of a living poster. Why is that so many Christians cannot put their thoughts into words? They cannot possible give a reason for the hope that is within them. They ask someone else to do it.

Dorothy Mae · Jul 20, 2018

he-man said:
hell= grave

So since at lot of people are buried, a lot go to hell, even Christians who are promised salvation from hell. bummer.

Maybe we ought to change the preaching to avoid the grave so one can avoid hell. Maybe cremation and being kept in an urn saves one from hell....no grave. But the best is likely to get yourself eaten. Then there’s so grave at all.

You need to think a bit further what your statments mean because if you don't others certainly will. This one is pretty foolish.

he-man · Jul 20, 2018

Anto9us said:
Consciousness in Hades is clear from the parable in Luke 16. The rich man is conscious.[/QU OTE]

JackRT said:
In Christian theology "hell" carries much more meaning than just the grave. The concept of "annihilation" is that the soul is extinguished as well as the body.

You got that part right anyway.

1Ti_6:16　[God] Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Dorothy Mae · Jul 20, 2018

he-man said:
You got that part right anyway.

1Ti_6:16　[God] Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Thought Jesus had promised eternal life. Guess he did not know that only God hath immortality. And here we all thought eternal life was because of Christ.

Dorothy Mae · Jul 20, 2018

JackRT said:
In Christian theology "hell" carries much more meaning than just the grave. The body is indeed in the grave but the soul lives on in eternal torment. The concept of "annihilation" is that the soul is extinguished as well as the body.

Would be more interesting if the Bible said the evil do not receive any punishment except the reward they desire, end of all consciousness. It is not just but hey, some don't care about justice. (sarcasict, I admit.)

JackRT · Jul 20, 2018

he-man said:
You got that part right anyway.

Why do I feel damned by faint praise? You endear yourself.

DennisTate · Jul 20, 2018

DM25 said:
Before I begin I want to say that I am in no way one of those people who believe in annihilation to please my flesh or rely on my own understanding to make myself feel better. Sure you can use God's character as an argument, but I am here to show you pure biblical evidence where God clearly states the punishment for sin is death. If I saw in scripture God clearly say the wicked will have eternal conscious torment and hell is an eternal torture chamber, I would still trust him and accept that. But I just don't see the biblical evidence for this popular belief and ironically enough, so many Christians who are deep in the bible and far in their walk believe this view and think the truth (death of the wicked) is unbiblcal. I think scripture was twisted and the church popularized this false belief, and they obviously did a good job in it. As a side note, I truly think ceasing to exist is actually the worst punishment of all because you will never get a chance for life and you can never feel anything, so God is still just in that case and the wicked will pay for rejecting God. Some people believe in universal salvation which I do think is unbiblical.

I believe the lake of fire is a very real place. It clearly says the lake of fire is real in scripture, and there will be torment and punishment in there before the souls of the wicked perish and God restores his creation. When God makes the new heaven and new earth as stated in revelation, there will be no more room for suffering and evil. All evil will die and there will be no more need for existence of it. A lot of people make the argument that all souls are eternal, but that doesn't make any sense because before we were born, we did not exist. So we are not eternal in the way God is. Not to mention God has the power to destroy souls because he is the almighty creator. The bible says the righteous will have everlasting LIFE and the wicked will PERISH. It says the wages of sin is DEATH. The bible talks about everlasting "destruction". It says evil and hell will be thrown into the lake and fire for the second DEATH. I know a lot of people will make the argument death only refers to spiritual death, but it does not specifically say this in the bible, death means death, not only spiritual death but the death of your soul, and it seems pretty clear in the bible so there is no need to add to it. Most of all it talks about how the gift Jesus gives to the righteous is life, and if you don't believe in him you will receive the opposite which is death. The eternal punishment the bible talks about is the destruction of the soul for eternity.

Here is the biblical evidence:

Psalm 1:6 "For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish."

Psalm 37:20 "But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away." Psalm 69:28 "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous" Psalm 34:16 "The face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth."

Psalm 92:7 "When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:"

Proverbs 24:20 "For there shall be no reward to the evil man; the candle of the wicked shall be put out"

Isaiah 1:28, 30-31 "And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed."

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Matthew 7:13 "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:"

Philippians 3:19 "Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things."

1 Corinthians 3:17 "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy;"

Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death"

I used to believe in Soul Sleep and a variation of Annihilationism.... but reading near death experience accounts and comparing them to II Corinthians 12:2-4 cured me of that error.

https://www.near-death.com/experiences/notable/george-ritchie.html#a05b

b. His Guided Tour of the Earthbound Realm with Jesus

The following is the testimony of George Ritchie's tour of the Earthbound Realm: Then Jesus begins to take Ritchie on a journey through various realms of the afterlife. They fly toward a large city on Earth where they notice a group of assembly-line workers at work. They witnesses the spirit of a woman trying desperately to grab a cigarette from the workers who were oblivious to her presence. This woman had died severely addicted to cigarettes and was now cut off from the one thing she desperately desired most.

Ritchie realizes how the spirits in these realms immediately know the thoughts of other spirits around them. This is the reason they tend to group together with other spirits. It is too threatening to be around others who knew and disagreed with their thoughts.

Jesus leads Ritchie to a house somewhere on Earth where he is shown the spirit of a young man following his living family members around and begging them for forgiveness. But the family members are completely unaware of his presence. Jesus tells Ritchie the young man committed suicide and is "chained to every consequence of his act."

They then traveled to a bar somewhere on Earth which was filled with sailors drinking heavily. Spirits surrounded the sailors as they tried desperately, and in vain, to grasp the shot glasses to get a drink. Other spirits tried to control the sailors' alcoholic behavior. Ritchie learns these are the spirits of people who died still having a severe alcoholic addiction which went beyond the physical. He is bewildered as he observes one of the sailors passing out causing the sailor's protective aura surrounding him to crack open. When it does, it allows a spirit to scramble into the sailor's unconscious body. This scene was repeated over and over.

he-man · Jul 20, 2018

Anto9us said:
Consciousness in Hades is clear from the parable in Luke 16. The rich man is conscious.

A parable is a story that is not real but made up to show something else.

Scripture plainly shows that the dead are silent in the grave and unconscious!

Psalms 1:4　 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.　5　 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.　6　 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.　

but the way of the ungodly shall perish; for his way is a wicked way, the way of sinners, Psa_1:1; it leads to destruction and death, and all that walk in it shall perish; [GILL]

The idea seems to have been, that "death" was a dark and gloomy object that obstructed all light, and threw a baleful shade afar, and that that melancholy shade was thrown afar over the regions of the dead. [BARNES]

6:5　 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?　In hell - - לשׁאול lishe'ôl, "to Sheol."

Psalms 31:17　 Let me not be ashamed, O LORD; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave.　

let them be silent in the grave; as all are that are there; and the sense is, let them be brought to the grave, where they will be silent, or cease [GILL]

And let them be silent in the grave - Margin, "let them be cut off for the grave." Hebrew: "for Sheol." The more correct translation is that which is in the text, "Let them be silent." That is, let them go down to the grave - to "Sheol" - to the "underworld" - to the "land of silence." On the meaning of the word used here - "Sheol," the grave - see the notes at Isaiah_14:9; The word ‘hell’ here (שׁאול she'ôl) is rendered by the Vulgate, "infernus;" and by the Septuagint, ὁ ᾅδης ho Hadēs, "Hades." compare the notes and the notes at Psalms_16:10.

In hell - - לשׁאול lishe'ôl, "to Sheol." See Psalms_6:5
This is represented as a land of "silence." This idea is derived from "the grave," where the dead repose in silence; and the meaning here is, let them be cut off and consigned to that land of silence. It is a prayer that the wicked may not triumph.[BARNES]

1Samuel 2:9　 He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.　

10　 The adversaries of the LORD shall be broken to pieces; out of heaven shall he thunder upon them:

so the Targum,"the wicked in hell in darkness shall be judged:''and it is said they shall be "silent" in it; Kimchi and Ben Melech; that is, by death, by the hand of God, by the sword of justice: [GILL]

Anto9us · Jul 20, 2018

Remember that in the parable in Like 16 the beggar Lazarus is conscious as well -- the rich man wants him to go to his brothers -- Lazarus the Beggar is NOT pictured as someone "asleep"

he-man · Jul 20, 2018

JackRT said:
Why do I feel damned by faint praise? You endear yourself.

1Ti 6:16　[God] Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

In hell - - לשׁאול lishe'ôl, "to Sheol." See Psalms 6:5
This is represented as a land of "silence." This idea is derived from "the grave," where the dead repose in silence; and the meaning here is, let them be cut off and consigned to that land of silence. It is a prayer that the wicked may not triumph.[BARNES]

1Samuel 2:9　 He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.　

10　 The adversaries of the LORD shall be broken to pieces; out of heaven shall he thunder upon them:

so the Targum,"the wicked in hell in darkness shall be judged:''and it is said they shall be "silent" in it; Kimchi and Ben Melech; that is, by death, by the hand of God, by the sword of justice:

he-man · Jul 20, 2018

Dorothy Mae said:
Thought Jesus had promised eternal life. Guess he did not know that only God hath immortality. And here we all thought eternal life was because of Christ.

No! Eternal life is Granted by God for Christ to give to believers only!
In hell - - לשׁאול lishe'ôl, "to Sheol." See Psalms_6:5
This is represented as a land of "silence." This idea is derived from "the grave," where the dead repose in silence; and the meaning here is, let them be cut off and consigned to that land of silence. It is a prayer that the wicked may not triumph.[BARNES]

1Samuel 2:9　 He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.　

10　 The adversaries of the LORD shall be broken to pieces; out of heaven shall he thunder upon them:

so the Targum,"the wicked in hell in darkness shall be judged:''and it is said they shall be "silent" in it; Kimchi and Ben Melech; that is, by death, by the hand of God, by the sword of justice:

he-man · Jul 20, 2018

Dorothy Mae said:
So since at lot of people are buried, a lot go to hell, even Christians who are promised salvation from hell. bummer.

Maybe we ought to change the preaching to avoid the grave so one can avoid hell. Maybe cremation and being kept in an urn saves one from hell....no grave. But the best is likely to get yourself eaten. Then there’s so grave at all.

You need to think a bit further what your statments mean because if you don't others certainly will. This one is pretty foolish.

Maybe we ought to learn Hebrew before we put our foot in our mouth.
In hell - - לשׁאול lishe'ôl, "to Sheol." See Psalms 6:5
This is represented as a land of "silence." This idea is derived from "the grave," where the dead repose in silence; and the meaning here is, let them be cut off and consigned to that land of silence. It is a prayer that the wicked may not triumph.[BARNES]

1Samuel 2:9　 He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.　

10　 The adversaries of the LORD shall be broken to pieces; out of heaven shall he thunder upon them:

so the Targum,"the wicked in hell in darkness shall be judged:''and it is said they shall be "silent" in it; Kimchi and Ben Melech; that is, by death, by the hand of God, by the sword of justice:

Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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