Why are school shootings a sole unique American problem?

Tuur said:

Except firearms are not used in all US homicides, such as those four killed in Idaho.

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And I didn't claim that they were. Yet, it's still true that when all other variables are accounted for an increase in the rate of firearm ownership is correlated with an increase in the rate of homicides.

Tuur said:

It's also harder to obtain firearms now than in the past, both due to background checks

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You sure about that chief?

2020 saw the highest number of firearms sold in American history. Nearly 20 million new firearms were purchased by Americans.
2021 was the second highest on record.
2019 was the third highest on record.

There were a 39.7 million state and federal background checks for weapon sales in 2020 (a new record). And a total of 185,384 denials. That's a denial rate of 0.467%. Or, less than 1 in 200 checks.
There were 38.9 million background checks in 2021 (second highest on record), and 153,565 denials. That's a rejection rate of 0.395%, or less than 1 in 250 checks.

In comparison, the long term average denial rate is 0.495%.

So, if it's harder to obtain firearms now than in the past, why are more guns being sold than ever before and background check denial rates under the historical average

and fewer places to buy firearms.

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There were just short of 53,000 federally licensed weapons dealers in the US in 2020.

To put that into context, that's more than every McDonalds, Dairy Queen, Starbucks, 7-Eleven, Home Depot and Wallmart in the US COMBINED.

Gene2memE said:

There were just short of 53,000 federally licensed weapons dealers in the US in 2020.

To put that into context, that's more than every McDonalds, Dairy Queen, Starbucks, 7-Eleven, Home Depot and Wallmart in the US COMBINED.

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I thought no way. I had to check it. Surely not possible. That cannot be.

And you're right.

McD 13,438
Starbucks 15,778
Dairy Q 4,356
7-eleven 9,522
Hone Depot 2,300
Wal-Mart 3,570

Total 48,964
Gun dealers 52,799

Conclusion? There's no hope...

Bradskii said:

I thought no way. I had to check it. Surely not possible. That cannot be.

And you're right.

McD 13,438
Starbucks 15,778
Dairy Q 4,356
7-eleven 9,522
Hone Depot 2,300
Wal-Mart 3,570

Total 48,964
Gun dealers 52,799

Conclusion? There's no hope...

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Wal-Mart sells guns, just so you know. And the fewer McD, Starbucks, Dairy Q, and 7-11, the better. Junk food kills more people than guns.

Torah Keeper said:

Wal-Mart sells guns, just so you know.

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Oh, that improves the situation no end. 'Yes sir, the automatic weapons are in aisle 4, next to the soft toys.'

These threads are a waste of time. The facts are simply overwhelming. You guys have no hope.

Gene2memE said:

You sure about that chief?

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Absolutely. Until the 1960s, in the US you could purchase a firearm by mail order without going through a licensed dealer. Wasn't required then. Hardware stores uses to sell firearms. Department stores sold firearms. Even a discount store, Freds, carried firearms. I knew of a drug store than sold a few firearms. Then you had gun shops. Pawn shops, of course, where you can find them (and trust them). Where hunting was popular, you'd sometimes find cases of shotgun shells sold in supermarkets.

In the 1960s we saw tighter restrictions, with sellers required to maintain records of sales in bound books (harder to "accidentally" lose a page). I think that's when mail order firearm sales ended in the US. They then had to be handled from a licensed dealer. Now, when you purchase a firearm in the US, you have to undergo a background check. Even if you purchase a firearm through a company on the Internet, it has to be handled through a licensed dealer in your state and you have to undergo the same background check. That's if you can find a local licensed dealer willing to handle the transaction.

Where you can purchase a firearm slowly became whittled down. First were the hardware stores and Freds (Freds, is now defunct, but they stopped before they went out of business). Then some department stores no longer carried firearms. That drug store I mentioned held onto a shotgun until it closed it's doors. There aren't as many gun stores around now, as people retire. You have stores like Basspro/Cabela's that carry them, but they tend to be few and far between out here in rural areas.

Some Walmarts carry firearms, though this varies from store to store. The last one I was in had slim pickings, maybe due to the time of year (hunting firearms are a popular Christmas present here in rural areas). I regret not taking a look at a lever action seen at another Walmart nearly two years ago: That one still had lever actions several months ago, and they are Henrys, which is a good brand, but only in end-of-tube load which isn't my favorite due to the hand being near the muzzle to load and unload it.

When I hear reports of increased firearm sales, I don't discount them (it has an impact on ammunition availability), but I have to ask where? Stores like Bass Pro/Cabela's? Walmarts that still have firearms? The gun shops that are still around? Pawn shops? Online but handled through a licensed dealer? There just doesn't seem to be as many stores that carry them.

I think the increase in sales comes from a suspicion that we are close to the point where you won't be able to purchase a firearm in the US. Right or wrong, I think that's what's driving it.

Bradskii said:

Oh, that improves the situation no end. 'Yes sir, the automatic weapons are in aisle 4, next to the soft toys.'

These threads are a waste of time. The facts are simply overwhelming. You guys have no hope.

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Yep.

Tuur said:

When I hear reports of increased firearm sales, I don't discount them (it has an impact on ammunition availability), but I have to ask where? Stores like Bass Pro/Cabela's? Walmarts that still have firearms? The gun shops that are still around? Pawn shops? Online but handled through a licensed dealer? There just doesn't seem to be as many stores that carry them.

I think the increase in sales comes from a suspicion that we are close to the point where you won't be able to purchase a firearm in the US. Right or wrong, I think that's what's driving it.

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These aren't stories, this is data. Annual firearms sale have tripled since about 2010 and grown nearly fivefold since 2000. Background checks have gone from 8-9 million per year at the end of the 1990s, to 38-39 million per year at the beginning of the 2020s.

I'm Australian, and a firearm owner/user (hunting and pest control). I grew up in a farming family, regularly using guns for target shooting and managing rabbits, foxes and kangaroos.

US gun culture is totally alien to me. It's not just a foreign country, it's on a different planet, in a different solar system, in a far distant galaxy. It's a culture built on toxic masculinity tropes, hyper individualism and intense tribalism full of 'just so' stories.

What I think is driving US gun sales is FEAR and the amplification of justified concerns into hyperbolic catastrophism. I'm put in mind of a Carl Sagan quote I read recently:

David_S42 said:

You are right , we have no hope. Your country had one mass shooting and you changed the law and bought back over 650K guns. Because human lives are more important than guns in your country. In our country we have 611 mass shooting just this year and our solution “ our thoughts and prayer for the victim”.

Keep in mind , in our country we have more people who are “Pro-life” then your country, But when it comes to guns, “Sanctity of life” take back seat!

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I saw a picture a few days ago in relation to the midterms. And so help me, it was of two guys outside a polling booth wearing camo gear, masks and holding what certainly looked like assault weapons. It looked like a scene from some war torn South American dictatorship. I swear I had to check to make sure the picture was associated with the story.

So that is considered par for the course. Armed citizens in paramilitary gear parading around during an election outside where people actually vote. I seriously am at a complete loss as to explain to you how utterly crazy that appears from someone brought up in the UK and lives in Australia. It is mindbendingly, 100%, catastrophically crazy. Police would be swarming all over the scene in Sydney if they were just dressed like that. It's provocative in extremis.

This isn't the picture but there are so many online...

Bradskii said:

I saw a picture a few days ago in relation to the midterms. And so help me, it was of two guys outside a polling booth wearing camo gear, masks and holding what certainly looked like assault weapons. It looked like a scene from some war torn South American dictatorship. I swear I had to check to make sure the picture was associated with the story.

So that is considered par for the course. Armed citizens in paramilitary gear parading around during an election outside where people actually vote. I seriously am at a complete loss as to explain to you how utterly crazy that appears from someone brought up in the UK and lives in Australia. It is mindbendingly, 100%, catastrophically crazy. Police would be swarming all over the scene in Sydney if they were just dressed like that. It's provocative in extremis.

This isn't the picture but there are so many online...

View attachment 324173

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I can assure you some of us Americans think the gun worship in America is absurd too. The irony for me is our politicians we elect to protect America have grown our desperate need for weapons by decades of fear mongering politics. Thus creating an exacerbated danger for citizens they are bound by oath to protect.

Gene2memE said:

These aren't stories, this is data. Annual firearms sale have tripled since about 2010 and grown nearly fivefold since 2000. Background checks have gone from 8-9 million per year at the end of the 1990s, to 38-39 million per year at the beginning of the 2020s.

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I don't think we have a disagreement here. I said I didn't discount increased sales. But my question still stands: Where are they buying them? Obviously they are buying them, but where? Not from the hardware stores that no longer carry them; not as many department stores carry them.

From your view in Australia, you surmise that it's fear, but your data gives you the answers. From 2009 - 2017, the US had President Obama. We've had President Biden since 2021. The fear is that, in the US, citizens will no longer be able to purchase firearms.

Tuur said:

The fear is that, in the US, citizens will no longer be able to purchase firearms.

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There's, according to most estimates, more than 375 million firearms in circulation in civilian hands in the US. Some put the number closer to 390 million.

That's enough to put a firearm in the hand of every man, woman and child, with enough left over to arm all of Canada.

It's not a president thing - Obama being elected caused barely a ripple in firearms sales (a ~3% increase in the first year of his presidency), although there was a big jump in sales in 2012.

Rates of firearms sales were higher in the Trump presidency than they were during the Obama presidency. I've not got exact numbers, but I suspect that even the four strongest years for firearms sales under Obama wouldn't match the four years of the Trump presidency.

Biden's not coming for anyone's guns. For all the bleating about the 'radical left agenda', Biden is a solid, slightly right of centre politician who's never going to go for anything other than some fiddling at the margins of existing gun laws. If he tried to implement policies similar to Israel, Australia, New Zealand or Canada, 1/3rd of the country would lose its mind!

Tuur said:

"It" is the topic at hand. "It" being gun control, "it" having been applied to colonists and slaves and freedmen at various points in American history. If you wish to discuss Canadian history, have at it.

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It might have escaped you, but Bradskii wasn't discussing Canadian history, but current Canadian gun regulation. I don't know what the gun regulation in Canada is so I won't comment on it. I want to point out that between "everything goes" and "generalized gun grab", there is quite a broad spectrum of measures possible. So here is a list of possible measures. Which of these could be acceptable for you?

• The requirement to follow a safety training, without an examination
• The requirement to follow a safety training, with an examination
• The requirement to follow a safety training, with an examination, a periodical requalification and the possibility of the retraction of the permit in case of fail
• The requirement to follow a safety training, with an examination and a periodical requalification and the possibility of gun confiscation in case of fail
• Gun storage regulation
• Gun storage regulation with specifications (like limited access for minors, etc)
• Gun storage regulation with mandatory periodical check by law enforcement services
• Limiting or prohibiting the access to high capacity weaponry
• Limiting or prohibiting high speed weaponry
• Limiting or prohibiting the access to guns for convicted people
• Limiting or prohibiting the access to guns for people with mental issues

(I am quite confident that smart people can come up with more and better options. So please feel free to make suggestions)

Bradskii said:

I saw a picture a few days ago in relation to the midterms. And so help me, it was of two guys outside a polling booth wearing camo gear, masks and holding what certainly looked like assault weapons. It looked like a scene from some war torn South American dictatorship. I swear I had to check to make sure the picture was associated with the story.

So that is considered par for the course. Armed citizens in paramilitary gear parading around during an election outside where people actually vote. I seriously am at a complete loss as to explain to you how utterly crazy that appears from someone brought up in the UK and lives in Australia. It is mindbendingly, 100%, catastrophically crazy. Police would be swarming all over the scene in Sydney if they were just dressed like that. It's provocative in extremis.

This isn't the picture but there are so many online...

View attachment 324173

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Maybe you meant smething like this one:

Gene2memE said:

Biden's not coming for anyone's guns.

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Just like the US has never put anyone into interment camps?

driewerf said:

It might have escaped you, but Bradskii wasn't discussing Canadian history, but current Canadian gun regulation.

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With the implication that such should be applied to the US. It may have escaped your notice, but the US isn't Canada (who which both Americans and Canadians give thanks).

Tuur said:

With the implication that such should be applied to the US.

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No. With a request that what the Canadians do can be discussed to see how their laws differ from those in the US and what, if anything, can be learned from that discussion.

But it is blazingly apparent that some people are not just not interested in finding a solution, they are not even interested in talking about finding a solution.

Bradskii said:

No. With a request that what the Canadians do can be discussed to see how their laws differ from those in the US and what, if anything, can be learned from that discussion.

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But not, apparently, previous attempts to prevent firearm ownership in the US.

Tuur said:

But not, apparently, previous attempts to prevent firearm ownership in the US.

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Removing guns from anyone, as I keep saying, is not on the table as a matter of discussion. We are not formulating policy here. But all you are doing is proving my point that there are those who haven't got the slightest interest in even discussing possible solutions.

Tuur said:

With the implication that such should be applied to the US. It may have escaped your notice, but the US isn't Canada (who which both Americans and Canadians give thanks).

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Luckily I have had a very good geography teacher who thought me about both the existence of the USA and Canada. So yes, I know that these are two different entities. Bardskii knows this too, so that is why he wrote: “The thread is about guns and associated problems. How about you discuss possible solutions starting with what Canada does as a starter.” Bradskii suggested the Canadian law as a starting point of the discussion. Not as to be implemented without any restriction.
For those wo – like me - don’t know the Canadian legislation, I suggested a list of possible gun regulation measures that differ from a generalized gun grab. Just to show that between “doing nothing” and a “generalized gun grab” there are quite some measures possible.
You have chosen to delete that list and not comment about it. Which of course is your prerogative.
Do you think you are capable of discussing possible gun regulation except a generalized gun grab? Note – discussing, not yet implementing? Do you think anything from the list above would be an improvement compared to the current situation?

Bradskii said:

But it is blazingly apparent that some people are not just not interested in finding a solution, they are not even interested in talking about finding a solution.

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I won't even consider voting for candidates who will not consider talking about gun control measures. It is the only issue on which I am immovable now. The United States has to prioritize the lives of citizens over weapons of war. We will never see this happen until we elect representatives who prioritize decreasing unnecessary gun violence in America. I am totally against the practice of child sacrifice and the worship of guns. We can uphold our 2nd amendment while reducing unnecessary gun deaths, but only if we are willing to try.