Why are minorities and women often poorer than white males?
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morningstar2651
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These statistics exist. The OP should have cited them, but it's pretty common knowledge that minorities and women earn less money even when working the same job.
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keith99
sola dosis facit venenum
Wow, just wow.
No discrimination against Asians in the States, ever?
I've met Asians who lost everything and were sent to internment camps.
Asians currently suffer discrimination when it comes to public education, while blacks get favored status.
The most cited law regarding Naturalization and discrimination was directed against Chinese, not Africans.
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I was waiting for this.
You will notice I did not include Japanese - those interned in the early 20th century. You will also notice I said, "here in the states," as well as qualifying my statement as conditional - not absolute. Comparatively, the discrimination is almost marginal. That is why the person I responded to post 14, because this isn't news on the surface. Check out the Forbes article posted earlier. Employers look for "Lee, Nguyen, Tanaka, etc." They tend to run from "Jackson, Keishas, Rodriguez, etc." There is a compounded discrimination.
B]You also ignored that I said if you are not white, then you are discriminated against.[/B]
Language is a funny thing, especially when context is ignored. Ironically, what you just displayed is the fight minorities have to work against everyday with the subtlety in language in legislation, education, the workforce, and many other places. One word, or sentence can (dis)qualify an entire thoughtform. And, if you ignore the subtleties, you can end up looking more ignorant than you actually are. That is a hint, by the way: I dont think you are ignorant necessarily, I just think for whatever reason you ignored several points in context.
EDIT: Blacks get favored for public education? Oh, you mean affirmative action? Did you not understand that the top 25% smartest Chinese population outnumber the entire United States population? So, why would the Chinese get favored public school attention? Black and Latinos live in low income neighborhoods mostly (by statistic,) and lower income neighborhoods do not get as much tax money pooled as does a upper middle class suburban neighborhood. That means less money on education, which means fewer graduates. So, why wouldn't there be programs to support more at risk black and latinos when the statistics show that they need the help? I am not a stickler for statistics, but if we are using your logical process, then it would make sense why an incredibly lacking, but necessary start of a program to help them would exist.
And, there is a difference between Africans who have migrated, and "African Americans" who aren't really African, but are.just a product of African slaves, and most often slave owners. "Black" people are schooled daily by Africans (and islanders) on how they are NOT the same. Again, you missed the context of my "hierarchy of minority."
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keith99
sola dosis facit venenum
Why support at risk blacks and Latinos and not support at risk Whites, Asians or Islanders?
I freely admit I had a lot of advantages. Those stemmed from what my parents accomplished and the time they spent raising me far more than the color of my skin.
You point out that you excluded the Japanese. OK, I'll point out that they seem to have instantly recovered. Most would guess they in fact are leading the Asian pack.
I actually do not disagree with the idea that blacks are at a disadvantage in many ways. What I disagree with is that the lions share comes from what the evil white man is doing to them. Your post makes it clear that you at least do not think that what the whites did is the only cause.
Remember I'm a California boy. Odds are about even that any Japanese person I met has close kin that were interned. Kin they know. I've never met someone whose Grandfather was a slave.
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Veritas
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Men don't live up to their responsibilities as fathers and husbands. Fatherlessness is primary cause of poverty in black communities. Women are forced into single parent poverty unless they abort. Wow, great "choices".
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Their support is inherently built into the framework - at least enough to where they can be afforded more opportunities (Asian/Islander.)
Typical privileged argument. Massive ignorance if socioeconomic in relation to the aforementioned points.
As I said before in a post, typical "cant get over [insert atrocity here.]" argument. Again, ignorance of socioeconomic framework that all but blatantly confirms racist and discriminatory conditions for blacks and latinos have not changed for the better, but translated into clandestine fabric.
Ho hum. When it comes to blacks and mexican latinos in the States, there isn't much lower you can go according to historical treatment. So, I suppose by default white people aren't the only ones who take advantage of privilege, and minorities, and demonize the people for pointing it out.
My grandfather was a slave, so was my great aun and uncle, and great grandmother. Now you have met someone, be it online.
How does you personally knowing a slave or interned kin matter, though, besides perspective?
Firstly, how long was their internment? Centuries, or decades?
Secondly, were they given support afterward? Were black slaves ever given what they were promised? Why is that (comparatively, to both cases)?
Thirdly, the Japanese have a nation if their own. Black slaves and their children had no country to go to expect the poorly developed, Western funded West African countries - which did not want much association with blacks in the States.
Fourth, the interned Japanese were given the option to be indentured later.
Comparing internment to slavery, and the affects of it to this day is apples and oragnes. As I said, only 40 years ago was it commonplace to see a black man torned apart by dogs, or black people hosed. Only 60 years ago was it normal to see "strange fruit." So, there is some deep issues that never get addressed when they typical, "do better" argunents are refurgitated.
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JoshuaDaryl
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I personally get tired of hearing this garbage. Everybody wants to point fingers and say it is your fault not mine. In the last 40 years the white American male is the favorite person to blame. I am really sick and tired of black Americans whining and crying over a injustice they never personally experienced, and the US has paid for in blood and lives, aka the Civil War. Also the US has paid billions in the last 50 years in aid, housing, welfare, education, and forced employment on businesses, having to hire on race instead of ability.
My grandmother was a Cherokee Indian. Her great grandmother watched their people, a peaceful people. They were forced from their businesses, farms, homes, towns, everything, forced to march west, unprepared, in bad weather, sick, old, and very young. Many died along the way. Grandma said, what has been done, is done, and can not be undone. You can not sit and dwell on it, you must move on. Scripture teaches that, Jesus' last act before he said its finished and gave up the ghost, was to pray "father forgive them, " Forgiveness is not just for the oppressor, but also the oppressed. I have had the privilege to know many black American people, who are very successful. One, she was my boss, I was a maintenance man for a chain of Mcdonalds that her husband had left her when he passed away, Ms. Liz and I talked about this very issue. She said her husband started out as a fry cook, and worked up to maintenance, then management, before he saved and borrowed to buy his first store in the 1970s. She said that he never sat around thinking about black oppression, no he instead thought about how to better himself. He figured out that if he worked hard, and was respectful to everyone equally, he could make it. He went to public school, made good grades, went to local community college while working at Mcdonalds, the company helped pay the tuition, as long as he worked there. Thats just one family, I know many others. My dad was half Cherokee, and Jew. He made a career out of the Army. That in turn opened up free college for his kids. I am 38, and I spent my life working, at 29 I myself, bought and paid for a 50 acre farm. I earned the money, sacrificed, did without, drove a semi for awhile, lived in the truck, used mom and dads address for my checks.
The US is still the only country on this earth, that if your willing to work hard, sacrifice, stop making excuses you can be what you want to be. We have a half black man as President, who barely qualifies as a citizen. His mother hated white men, and she hated capitalist. She worked hard to keep herself married to poor people. Like him or not, that is irrelevant, Obama is a American success stories. I have a friend whose parents brought him over as a baby when they immigrated here from India. They had 8 dollars on them when they arrived in 1979. His dad set out accepting any and every job he could find. Janitor, dishwasher, whatever. My friend tells me his dad would work 80 hours a week. They encouraged him to make good grades. He graduated public school just barely missing valedictorian. He made his way through law school, racked up some debt, took an entry position at a large law firm in St. Louis, who helped him pay his debt. Over 15 years he has worked up to partner.
The moral is, people need to forgive, forget, move on, and take responsibility for themselves. The more we cry unfair, uncle Sam will you make them play fair, you give up more freedom. It is getting harder to make it now than it used to, because the more power the government takes, the more laws it enacts, the more hurdles we must jump. Think about it
My grandmother was a Cherokee Indian. Her great grandmother watched their people, a peaceful people. They were forced from their businesses, farms, homes, towns, everything, forced to march west, unprepared, in bad weather, sick, old, and very young. Many died along the way. Grandma said, what has been done, is done, and can not be undone. You can not sit and dwell on it, you must move on. Scripture teaches that, Jesus' last act before he said its finished and gave up the ghost, was to pray "father forgive them, " Forgiveness is not just for the oppressor, but also the oppressed. I have had the privilege to know many black American people, who are very successful. One, she was my boss, I was a maintenance man for a chain of Mcdonalds that her husband had left her when he passed away, Ms. Liz and I talked about this very issue. She said her husband started out as a fry cook, and worked up to maintenance, then management, before he saved and borrowed to buy his first store in the 1970s. She said that he never sat around thinking about black oppression, no he instead thought about how to better himself. He figured out that if he worked hard, and was respectful to everyone equally, he could make it. He went to public school, made good grades, went to local community college while working at Mcdonalds, the company helped pay the tuition, as long as he worked there. Thats just one family, I know many others. My dad was half Cherokee, and Jew. He made a career out of the Army. That in turn opened up free college for his kids. I am 38, and I spent my life working, at 29 I myself, bought and paid for a 50 acre farm. I earned the money, sacrificed, did without, drove a semi for awhile, lived in the truck, used mom and dads address for my checks.
The US is still the only country on this earth, that if your willing to work hard, sacrifice, stop making excuses you can be what you want to be. We have a half black man as President, who barely qualifies as a citizen. His mother hated white men, and she hated capitalist. She worked hard to keep herself married to poor people. Like him or not, that is irrelevant, Obama is a American success stories. I have a friend whose parents brought him over as a baby when they immigrated here from India. They had 8 dollars on them when they arrived in 1979. His dad set out accepting any and every job he could find. Janitor, dishwasher, whatever. My friend tells me his dad would work 80 hours a week. They encouraged him to make good grades. He graduated public school just barely missing valedictorian. He made his way through law school, racked up some debt, took an entry position at a large law firm in St. Louis, who helped him pay his debt. Over 15 years he has worked up to partner.
The moral is, people need to forgive, forget, move on, and take responsibility for themselves. The more we cry unfair, uncle Sam will you make them play fair, you give up more freedom. It is getting harder to make it now than it used to, because the more power the government takes, the more laws it enacts, the more hurdles we must jump. Think about it
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So am I to understand you think it's genetics? That black people are poorer not because of society but because they are lazy?
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Vylo
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Where did he say or imply any of that?
One of the major problems that has plagued african americans and also africans themselves is not genetics, but culture. You know what the black neighborhoods are like in my area? Full of friendly people who work hard. Now go to the ghettos of Camden. Completely different culture that continues like a plague and helps perpetuate racism by implying that all or most black people are like that. I know a lot of people who grew up in the Jersey City area who are extremely racist because of the black people they encountered there. I try to tell them things are different here, but many of them won't listen.
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From first-hand female perspective:
I have taken on jobs where the manager skimmed my CV, and then after hiring made statements about things I should do professionally that I had already shown evidence of. In those cases, my work experience was equivalent to what my male manager had, right down to the same degrees and number of years of experience.
In one job, I fended off statements that women are less committed and "Often leave because of their husbands' relocation," or "Because they don't need to work," or 'put their families first." Well, I need to work! Two women in that department left around that time -- and two men.
Several times a job was written up as full time with benefits, but the employer had full intention of hiring without benefits. Some admitted it in the interview, some hired me with a promise that full time status would come through at the turn of the budget year. But then their budgets weren't approved.
Managers at different jobs made comments that I didn't need benefits, assuming my husband's job covered everything. As a couple, we have paid our own health care most of our adult lives.
As a female employee, I worked forty+ hour weeks having babies and no maternity leave, worked when my doctor said I should be recuperating, and took client calls the day I returned from the hospital. Then when in the office, I was told by coworkers how nice it was I could stay home with the baby-- when I had been working all that time.
What women put up with doesn't fit on a CV. I am sure that is true of minorities too, and people with disabilities.
If I had fought not having full-time status while working full-time hours, I would have been considered antagonistic and not a team player. I watched people get fired for requesting more. When I did try to negotiate an arrangement, the new manager said, "You can't be working that many hours," --as though it were my fault. My next contract, I had a good raise but my hours were cut, to make it clear they were not breaking any policies. (And I listened to a lot of shredding after hours.)
Meanwhile, I keep up the perception with clients that I represent the company, initiate and review programs for the company, develop new products, follow up with old clients, stay active professionally, and occasionally train new employees or interview them.
I think much of the perception about women and minorities is the visual in people's minds-- assumptions they do not realize they are making.
Tall=authoritative. Short=young and lesser. High voice = incompetent, young, ditsy or screetchy. Low voice= competent, strong and unflinching. Skirt=secretary/stewardess Slacks=management material. Body parts=temptation that must be resisted
Watch yourself (anyone) some day making assumptions about people in a crowd that you don't know -- we all do a little bit of profiling.
I have taken on jobs where the manager skimmed my CV, and then after hiring made statements about things I should do professionally that I had already shown evidence of. In those cases, my work experience was equivalent to what my male manager had, right down to the same degrees and number of years of experience.
In one job, I fended off statements that women are less committed and "Often leave because of their husbands' relocation," or "Because they don't need to work," or 'put their families first." Well, I need to work! Two women in that department left around that time -- and two men.
Several times a job was written up as full time with benefits, but the employer had full intention of hiring without benefits. Some admitted it in the interview, some hired me with a promise that full time status would come through at the turn of the budget year. But then their budgets weren't approved.
Managers at different jobs made comments that I didn't need benefits, assuming my husband's job covered everything. As a couple, we have paid our own health care most of our adult lives.
As a female employee, I worked forty+ hour weeks having babies and no maternity leave, worked when my doctor said I should be recuperating, and took client calls the day I returned from the hospital. Then when in the office, I was told by coworkers how nice it was I could stay home with the baby-- when I had been working all that time.
What women put up with doesn't fit on a CV. I am sure that is true of minorities too, and people with disabilities.
If I had fought not having full-time status while working full-time hours, I would have been considered antagonistic and not a team player. I watched people get fired for requesting more. When I did try to negotiate an arrangement, the new manager said, "You can't be working that many hours," --as though it were my fault. My next contract, I had a good raise but my hours were cut, to make it clear they were not breaking any policies. (And I listened to a lot of shredding after hours.)
Meanwhile, I keep up the perception with clients that I represent the company, initiate and review programs for the company, develop new products, follow up with old clients, stay active professionally, and occasionally train new employees or interview them.
I think much of the perception about women and minorities is the visual in people's minds-- assumptions they do not realize they are making.
Tall=authoritative. Short=young and lesser. High voice = incompetent, young, ditsy or screetchy. Low voice= competent, strong and unflinching. Skirt=secretary/stewardess Slacks=management material. Body parts=temptation that must be resisted
Watch yourself (anyone) some day making assumptions about people in a crowd that you don't know -- we all do a little bit of profiling.
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iluvatar5150
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Institutionalized mistreatment of blacks didn't end with the civil war. They didn't even get the right to vote until the 60's.
Great, but you can look at the massive poverty among the native population and see the kinds of long-term problems caused by centuries of mistreatment. The same sort of thing has been done to blacks. They just happen to congregate in inner cities instead of reservations.
That's great. As an aside, he'd likely never be able to pull that off today. The minimum non-borrowed capital requirement for a new franchisee is $750k
Acquiring a Franchise :: AboutMcDonalds.com
You should read the reparations thread. Many blacks in the mid 20th century did this and still had their homes and opportunities ripped away.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7826928/
That's not true at all. You can do that in practically every western country and in fact, economic mobility is lower in the US than it is in many other western countries.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/u...ise-from-lower-rungs.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
<< Staff Edit >> He doesn't "barely qualify" as a citizen. No one "barely qualifies" as a citizen. You either are a citizen or your aren't. He is.
I guess he wasn't discriminated against in the same way that many black people have been.
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Christos Anesti
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That's simply not true. Discrimination has taken place against Asian Americans and continues to this day. In fact racism against Asians seems very common where I live ** and I don't see how it could fail to play out in actual incidents of discrimination. You might be right in your claim that academics are coming over to the US from India and China but the claim that they haven't suffered from discrimination in the US isn't correct.
Anti-Chinese USA—Racism & Discrimination from the Onset
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_the_United_States#Asian_Americans
** I've seen people who would never dream of making a crude anti-black jokes in public make fun of Asians for example. Even in mixed Black and White company I've seen people making fun of Asians together.
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I see you snipped what was argumentative convenient for you, and ignored my context. If you referenced the entire point, you would have seen I said all minorities in the States are discriminated against.
So, do you think Asian Americans are more discriminated against in a negative way than blacks or mexican americans? Or, are you trying to make a mountain out of a RELATIVE - repeat - RELATIVE molehill?
Now, contextually, I am comparing black and mexican/native problems in the states. Asian American, including Indians, do not compare in terms of diminished opportunities, and the fabric if discriminatory and racist oppression. I am sure they have to deal with an incredible amount of trouble, but there is no name of more derision, no scourge known around the world more repulsive than a black person. Asian people discriminate against black people very often, and many are told how horrible blacks are before they come to meet them. My fiance is from Burma/Myanmar, she told me the Chinese treat her people like Americans treat Black people. How would she know this if it wasn't the most accessible form of comparative oppression? People are still using Blackface, and throwing banana peels at African and black players at the 2014 FIFA world cup - as in NOW. And, these are not Americans.
<< Staff Edit >>
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SoldierOfTheKing
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Lollerstakes said:
The worst thing they have to worry about in Europe is people going blackface and throwing bananas at them? Whereas in Africa the only have to worry about - oh, disease epidemics, famines, intertribal warfare. If they would own stop for a second to think about how good they really have it.
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<< Staff Edit >>
As far as my FIFA comment, I included that to show the incredible ignorance and incredulity one has to have to think "black people" have it good, or better in the States, when more socially developed Western nations still mock international Africans and African Americans with racially charged props.
And, blackface is NOT the worst thing they have to worry about in Europe for African and Black people. This must be a Western thing, not an American thing solely, to think that throwing a couple of coins at minorities, and undoing the atrocities that should have never been done is a perpetual gift, and minorities should be appreciative and thankful for that. Much more, they should keep their mouths shut, and carry on.
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MachZer0
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African Americans have every opportunity to succeed just as every other American. Those African Americans who feel otherwise will only be free when they reach down into the inner depths of their own beings and sign with the pen and ink of assertive manhood their own emancipation proclamation.
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JoshuaDaryl
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Except an Native American, or worse, half breed. My father put up with that his whole life: names my dad endured;
<< Staff Edit >>
But he stood his ground. In 72 he tried to leave the army, but between being a "baby Killer" and "half breed Mexican << Staff Edit>>" he reenlisted. He made a career out of the army. Dad taught us that it will make us stronger, and better people, give it to God. Times are better now than then.
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JoshuaDaryl
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SoldierOfTheKing
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Lollerskates said:
The point is that blacks living in America, and elsewhere in the Western world, have a life that they would never otherwise be able to have, something for which they have shown precious little gratitude.
Lollerskates said:
As I've said, if being mocked is the worst thing you have to worry about in your life, you do have it good.
Lollerskates said:
I should hope there are worst thing to worry about than what Europeans wear in their own countries, which is none of your business anyway. For some reason though, you don't seem to want to talk about them.
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