Why are Christians generally opposed to abortion?

[zephcom]

The military is necessary, but could certainly do fine with much less funding than it currently gets.

A military may be necessary for the defense of a nation, but a military is not necessary for those who follow Jesus. It is a mindset kind of thing. The function of a military is completely opposite of the function of a follower of Jesus.

As an aside, a nation which desires to hold the entire planet as a colony needs to spend a lot on their military.

 

[keith99]

A military may be necessary for the defense of a nation, but a military is not necessary for those who follow Jesus. It is a mindset kind of thing. The function of a military is completely opposite of the function of a follower of Jesus.

As an aside, a nation which desires to hold the entire planet as a colony needs to spend a lot on their military.

Yet one of the few people Jesus actually praised was a soldier. Seems strange if the military is completely opposite of the function of a follower of Jesus.

 

[zephcom]

Yet one of the few people Jesus actually praised was a soldier. Seems strange if the military is completely opposite of the function of a follower of Jesus.

It's not strange at all. A -soldier- is a human being deserving of love like all human beings. A -military- is an institution which its only obligation is to serve government.

And the soldier clearly was serving in the military before ever learning of Jesus. And finally, Jesus was not the type of person who only praised people who were devoted to following Him. Divine Love does not work that way.

My point about a military is that once someone decides to become a real follower of Jesus...someone who tries their best to follow just Jesus' teachings...will know that there is no way killing an enemy is a loving behavior. And Jesus instructed His followers to love their enemy.

The two behaviors...military and love for an enemy...are mutually exclusive.

Giving up the legal opportunity to bomb an entire village into rumble or machine gunning an entire family in their home is just one of the downsides to being a follower of Jesus.

 

[rjs330]

Allow me to refer you to the teachings of Jesus as found in the New Testament. Those teachings eliminated the entire Old Testament Law and teachings of the Prophets. Those teachings established NEW commandments which Jesus said fully encompass ALL of the Old Testament Law and teachings from the Prophets.

Those teachings eliminated all the things you talk about and replaced them with loving behavior. You talk about us being under the control of the Nazis right now if it had not been for the 'Christians'. But one has to remember that JESUS lived under the Roman Empire which was a nasty an empire as any yet HE never advocated going to war against them. In fact, His resistance to leading an army against the Romans is why the JEWS don't acknowledge is Messiah status.

Jesus gave explicit instructions about how HIS people will behave. And those instructions do not make room for all your exceptions to His teachings.

I am not talking about individuals but governments. As a believer

Allow me to refer you to the teachings of Jesus as found in the New Testament. Those teachings eliminated the entire Old Testament Law and teachings of the Prophets. Those teachings established NEW commandments which Jesus said fully encompass ALL of the Old Testament Law and teachings from the Prophets.

Those teachings eliminated all the things you talk about and replaced them with loving behavior. You talk about us being under the control of the Nazis right now if it had not been for the 'Christians'. But one has to remember that JESUS lived under the Roman Empire which was a nasty an empire as any yet HE never advocated going to war against them. In fact, His resistance to leading an army against the Romans is why the JEWS don't acknowledge is Messiah status.

Jesus gave explicit instructions about how HIS people will behave. And those instructions do not make room for all your exceptions to His teachings.

Since you refer to Jesus teachings perhaps we should look at the teaching of the scriptures. Jesus admonition is to love correct? Love our neighbors do unto others right? Answer this question, are we loving our neighbors if we refuse to help them if someone is raping and killing them? Who are we really loving? We are to love our enemies and we are to love our neighbor. Jesus speaks of an individual gospel and not a governmental gospel. If some one is mean to me I am to love and pray for them. If someone is mean to my neighbor I am to help and defend my neighbor because I love them. I want to do to them what I would want them to do for me or my family. Do I love the evil man more than my neighbor? According to your thoughts we should. Perhaps you ought to read up on the scriptures that admonish us to help the innocent.

Perhaps you also ought to read up on what the Bible says about the role of government. Because that is what we are talking about.

And also while you are looking at that take a look at scriptures telling husband's to love their wives selflessly. Are we loving our wives if we let someone murder or rape them when we could stop them? Why is it your gospel puts the evil man above our wives and families? The Bible also tells me I have to provide for them. If I don't I am worse than an infidel. The provision is not just coughing up the money but also protection for them. Does Jesus demand we live the evil man more than we love our family?

Jesus never commanded that we shall not protect our neighbors or family.

And by the way a slap on my cheek is not the same as a knife across the throat of my wife.

 

[rjs330]

It's not strange at all. A -soldier- is a human being deserving of love like all human beings. A -military- is an institution which its only obligation is to serve government.

And the soldier clearly was serving in the military before ever learning of Jesus. And finally, Jesus was not the type of person who only praised people who were devoted to following Him. Divine Love does not work that way.

My point about a military is that once someone decides to become a real follower of Jesus...someone who tries their best to follow just Jesus' teachings...will know that there is no way killing an enemy is a loving behavior. And Jesus instructed His followers to love their enemy.

The two behaviors...military and love for an enemy...are mutually exclusive.

Giving up the legal opportunity to bomb an entire village into rumble or machine gunning an entire family in their home is just one of the downsides to being a follower of Jesus.

According to you Jesus should have told the soldier to stop being one. But he didn't. He told him to be satisfied with his soldier pay.

Also I find it very interesting that you are so totally against protecting the innocent from evil. I guess it it fits your theology cause you are for the killing of Innocents by abortion so it makes sense you are in support of leaving the Nazis to kill the innocent people and the Jews.

 

[keith99]

It's not strange at all. A -soldier- is a human being deserving of love like all human beings. A -military- is an institution which its only obligation is to serve government.

And the soldier clearly was serving in the military before ever learning of Jesus. And finally, Jesus was not the type of person who only praised people who were devoted to following Him. Divine Love does not work that way.

My point about a military is that once someone decides to become a real follower of Jesus...someone who tries their best to follow just Jesus' teachings...will know that there is no way killing an enemy is a loving behavior. And Jesus instructed His followers to love their enemy.

The two behaviors...military and love for an enemy...are mutually exclusive.

Giving up the legal opportunity to bomb an entire village into rumble or machine gunning an entire family in their home is just one of the downsides to being a follower of Jesus.

Ah the ability of Christians to rationalize away the words and actions of Their Lord to maintain their doctrines. My good friend Screwtape really enjoys that aspect of Christians.

 

[zephcom]

I am not talking about individuals but governments. As a believer


Since you refer to Jesus teachings perhaps we should look at the teaching of the scriptures. Jesus admonition is to love correct? Love our neighbors do unto others right? Answer this question, are we loving our neighbors if we refuse to help them if someone is raping and killing them? Who are we really loving? We are to love our enemies and we are to love our neighbor. Jesus speaks of an individual gospel and not a governmental gospel. If some one is mean to me I am to love and pray for them. If someone is mean to my neighbor I am to help and defend my neighbor because I love them. I want to do to them what I would want them to do for me or my family. Do I love the evil man more than my neighbor? According to your thoughts we should. Perhaps you ought to read up on the scriptures that admonish us to help the innocent.

Perhaps you also ought to read up on what the Bible says about the role of government. Because that is what we are talking about.

And also while you are looking at that take a look at scriptures telling husband's to love their wives selflessly. Are we loving our wives if we let someone murder or rape them when we could stop them? Why is it your gospel puts the evil man above our wives and families? The Bible also tells me I have to provide for them. If I don't I am worse than an infidel. The provision is not just coughing up the money but also protection for them. Does Jesus demand we live the evil man more than we love our family?

Jesus never commanded that we shall not protect our neighbors or family.

And by the way a slap on my cheek is not the same as a knife across the throat of my wife.

What Jesus said is to not resist an evil man. He said to love your enemy.

How one implements that into their lives is a personal thing. But I don't see where Jesus leaves any room for an attack on evil people. It does leave room to rescue others or sacrificing one's own self to protect others.

Do remember the Christians who suffered death at the hands of the Romans for the entertainment of the masses. They merely knelt in prayer and accepted their deaths at the hands of those who were charged with killing them. No one rushed out and tried to fight off these evil people.

These were people who understood their obligation to their teacher.

 

[zephcom]

According to you Jesus should have told the soldier to stop being one. But he didn't. He told him to be satisfied with his soldier pay.

Also I find it very interesting that you are so totally against protecting the innocent from evil. I guess it it fits your theology cause you are for the killing of Innocents by abortion so it makes sense you are in support of leaving the Nazis to kill the innocent people and the Jews.

I am not Jesus. I only read what Jesus said and report on it.

It is the Christian religion which has altered Jesus' teachings to encourage followers to fight and kill people whom Jesus and the Father loves. The bottom line is who do you trust the most...the teachings of humans running a religion or Jesus who says His teachings come directly from the Father?

This is an individual decision that each person needs to make...trust God or trust humans. It isn't an easy decision.

 

[zephcom]

What Jesus said is to not resist an evil man. He said to love your enemy.

How one implements that into their lives is a personal thing. But I don't see where Jesus leaves any room for an attack on evil people. It does leave room to rescue others or sacrificing one's own self to protect others.

Do remember the Christians who suffered death at the hands of the Romans for the entertainment of the masses. They merely knelt in prayer and accepted their deaths at the hands of those who were charged with killing them. No one rushed out and tried to fight off these evil people.

These were people who understood their obligation to their teacher.

Let me add one more thing to my discussion on this issue. There has been a true life contemporary example of how one truly puts God in charge and completely trusts God with one's very life.

A woman who only referred to herself as "Peace Pilgrim" took it upon herself to to promote peace in America. She walked the highways for 28 years with only the clothes on her back, her toothbrush and letter pads to send letters to the people she met. She vowed to, "remain a wanderer until mankind has learned the way of peace, walking until given shelter and fasting until given food."

She said she never went without food for more than four days that entire time.

But back to the reason I bring this up, there is a book comprised of her writings as she sent letters to the people she had become friends with. The Friends of Peace Pilgrim have compiled those letters into a book.

They make the book available free of charge on the Internet and will send a free paper version to anyone requesting it. In that book she describes some of the situations she found herself in and the results of simply turning the situation over to God and letting Him deal with it for her.

One I remember is similar to the situation in this thread. She was (as I recall) given the use of a barn for the night. A girl came running in and hid in the barn. Shortly after a man came in looking for her with the intent of rape.

Peace Pilgrim positioned herself between them, made certain the man understood that he would have to go through her to get to the girl and then proceeded to smother the man with all the love she could muster. She didn't know if she was going to die that night or not. She just turned it all over to God to handle. The man eventually sagged and walked away.

It's been years since I've read the story so there may be some errors in my recounting. The book is available here:

Peace Pilgrim Home

For those who really don't grasp the power of God and His Divine Love, the book is a real joy to read. And it graphically illustrates how Jesus' teachings actually work.

 

[rjs330]

What Jesus said is to not resist an evil man. He said to love your enemy.

How one implements that into their lives is a personal thing. But I don't see where Jesus leaves any room for an attack on evil people. It does leave room to rescue others or sacrificing one's own self to protect others.

Do remember the Christians who suffered death at the hands of the Romans for the entertainment of the masses. They merely knelt in prayer and accepted their deaths at the hands of those who were charged with killing them. No one rushed out and tried to fight off these evil people.

These were people who understood their obligation to their teacher.

So you agree with me then. Good. Yes we will.sacrifice ourselves for the sake of the gospel. Governments though are not under the same obligation. In fact they are biblically ordained to protect their people. Two completely different thoughts.

Since we agree that it is important to rescue people or sacrifice ourselves to save them because we are commanded to live each other then I am glad about that. But I still wonder if you really believe that. Is it showing love to allow someone to rape and murder your wife or neighbor if you could have saved them by killing the evil man? Are fulfilling the law of love by allowing the evil man to do that? I think not.

 

[rjs330]

I am not Jesus. I only read what Jesus said and report on it.

It is the Christian religion which has altered Jesus' teachings to encourage followers to fight and kill people whom Jesus and the Father loves. The bottom line is who do you trust the most...the teachings of humans running a religion or Jesus who says His teachings come directly from the Father?

This is an individual decision that each person needs to make...trust God or trust humans. It isn't an easy decision.

It seems a bit hypocritical to say we shouldn't kill evil people but then say it's perfectly fine to kill innocent babies.

You are so bound and determined to support the death of Innocents but totally against killing to protect innocent helpless people. That is not what Jesus taught not is it what is taught by Paul and it is not taught by the inspired writings and quotations of God in the OT.
Every person should place themselves under the authority of the government. There isn’t any authority unless it comes from God, and the authorities that are there have been put in place by God.So anyone who opposes the authority is standing against what God has established. People who take this kind of stand will get punished.The authorities don’t frighten people who are doing the right thing. Rather, they frighten people who are doing wrong. Would you rather not be afraid of authority? Do what’s right, and you will receive its approval.It is God’s servant given for your benefit. But if you do what’s wrong, be afraid because it doesn’t have weapons to enforce the law for nothing. It is God’s servant put in place to carry out his punishment on those who do what is wrong.That is why it is necessary to place yourself under the government’s authority, not only to avoid God’s punishment but also for the sake of your conscience.You should also pay taxes for the same reason, because the authorities are God’s assistants, concerned with this very thing.So pay everyone what you owe them. Pay the taxes you owe, pay the duties you are charged, give respect to those you should respect, and honor those you should honor. - Romans 13:1-7 Bible Gateway passage: Romans 13:1-7 - Common English Bible

 

[zephcom]

So you agree with me then. Good. Yes we will.sacrifice ourselves for the sake of the gospel. Governments though are not under the same obligation. In fact they are biblically ordained to protect their people. Two completely different thoughts.

Since we agree that it is important to rescue people or sacrifice ourselves to save them because we are commanded to live each other then I am glad about that. But I still wonder if you really believe that. Is it showing love to allow someone to rape and murder your wife or neighbor if you could have saved them by killing the evil man? Are fulfilling the law of love by allowing the evil man to do that? I think not.

Of course governments are not under the same obligations. My only point about the military is that given the teachings of Jesus, it should be impossible for a follower to be both a soldier following orders to kill AND a follower of Jesus. The individual would have to decide which master to serve.

As to your last question, I'm not really the one to answer it. These are teachings of Jesus. Jesus claims they came from God the Father. That seems to me to be way above my pay grade. I'm not in the position to grant you immunity from Jesus' teachings. But I do understand your anguish.

So I go back to what Jesus taught. And, according to the Bible, Jesus said not to resist an evil man. Killing that evil man -is- resisting him.

Perhaps there is some way to understand this physical realm which makes this whole thing more understandable. I've worked on that and have a solution which satisfies me. I can share it but I don't know that others will find it as satisfactory as I do.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

Moreover, the creation (mankind) has no right whatsoever, to judge the actions of God, the Creator.

I know this is totally unrelated to this thread but I have to ask.... Why?

Why can't we question or judge him when he does questionable things?

 

[zephcom]

It seems a bit hypocritical to say we shouldn't kill evil people but then say it's perfectly fine to kill innocent babies.

You are so bound and determined to support the death of Innocents but totally against killing to protect innocent helpless people. That is not what Jesus taught not is it what is taught by Paul and it is not taught by the inspired writings and quotations of God in the OT.
Every person should place themselves under the authority of the government. There isn’t any authority unless it comes from God, and the authorities that are there have been put in place by God.So anyone who opposes the authority is standing against what God has established. People who take this kind of stand will get punished.The authorities don’t frighten people who are doing the right thing. Rather, they frighten people who are doing wrong. Would you rather not be afraid of authority? Do what’s right, and you will receive its approval.It is God’s servant given for your benefit. But if you do what’s wrong, be afraid because it doesn’t have weapons to enforce the law for nothing. It is God’s servant put in place to carry out his punishment on those who do what is wrong.That is why it is necessary to place yourself under the government’s authority, not only to avoid God’s punishment but also for the sake of your conscience.You should also pay taxes for the same reason, because the authorities are God’s assistants, concerned with this very thing.So pay everyone what you owe them. Pay the taxes you owe, pay the duties you are charged, give respect to those you should respect, and honor those you should honor. - Romans 13:1-7 Bible Gateway passage: Romans 13:1-7 - Common English Bible

Let's get a good understanding of what I ACTUALLY have said. I have not said that it is perfectly okay to kill 'innocent babies'. I suppose it is not worth the effort to point out that they are not babies until they are born and no one is supporting killing babies, innocent or otherwise.

I have already pointed out that abortion is not the best outcome for a pregnancy. I just don't think that making a woman a criminal for it will put an end to it. Not everything can be handled and forgotten just because we pass a law.

There are social issues which come into play which create the situations which cause women to have abortions. These are things like shaming women who become pregnant out of wedlock, low pay for women who are single mothers, lack of adequate child care for single women who are supporting a child through work.

We have lot of issues which are involved in the abortion discussion. And they will not go away just because we pass a law banning abortions. My position is that we need to deal with the social issues which drive women to have abortions and the abortion rates will plummet without the need for more laws.

Finally, -I- only accept the teachings of Jesus as coming from God. I don't fall for the 'inspired writing' dodge used by the religion as a means to negate Jesus' teachings. All teachings by man, even those found in the Bible, need to conform to the teachings of Jesus in order to remain valid.

And one of the teachings of Jesus is that the ENTIRE Old Testament law and teachings of the Prophets are fulfilled in Him. Since He has fulfilled them and replaced them with the Two Great Commandments, they are no longer valid teachings.

Look what Jesus said right after He announced His commandments, "All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Jesus turned the world upside down. But it appears that it is His world to turn upside down.

The RELIGION doesn't want you to know that. The RELIGION wants to be able to still teach out of the Old Testament because that gives authority to a world based religion. Jesus elevated the spiritual access for all people.

We have to be more responsible for our own actions now that we don't have a law based religion to order us around. EVERYTHING from the old Law is summed up in the two Great Commandments. But now we have to elevate our own spirituality to navigate His teachings. We have to learn Divine Love and how to apply it.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

I can't really answer the OP since I'm not a Christian but it would seem that the commandment against murder or killing might have had an asterisk next to it seeing as there are many self professing Christians here in the US who support things like the death penalty and gun rights while taking a stand against abortion and euthanasia.

 

[Sketcher]

I can't really answer the OP since I'm not a Christian but it would seem that the commandment against murder or killing might have had an asterisk next to it seeing as there are many self professing Christians here in the US who support things like the death penalty and gun rights while taking a stand against abortion and euthanasia.

The death penalty is not murder, not when it is applied to a guilty person after a fair trial. The Hebrew and the context of the commands make that evident. As to gun rights, the right to own and use a gun does not equate with murder.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

That's just like saying that smokers should pay for their own treatment, or drinkers, or drug addicts or anyone who makes a lifestyle choice which results in harm. Adult activities of all kinds result in costs, and adults (or most do) pay tax to fund that.

Or its like saying soldiers should pay for their own war. I don't understand the complaint about taxes paying for the things we use as a society. That's exactly what they're supposed to do.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

Because abortion is the murder of a new human being.. Even worse it is the murder of a completely innocent human being.. Murder is sin for a Christian..

Does war count as murder?

 

[JoeP222w]

I know this is totally unrelated to this thread but I have to ask.... Why?

Why can't we question or judge him when he does questionable things?

Romans 9:14-23 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! (15) For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (16) So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. (17) For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." (18) So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. (19) You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" (20) But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" (21) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? (22) What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (23) in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

 

[KWCrazy]

Well given it died when miscarried it certainly wasn't a fully formed human being.

Not fully formed, but still a human being.