Why are Christians generally opposed to abortion?

[DogmaHunter]

No, you can find them at various websites however. I would have no way of coming up with stats like that on my own.

Sadly, knowing such information hasn't seem to put a dent in the number of abortions that are performed each year, so the only people those numbers seem to matter to are the ones who wouldn't choose to get an abortion anyway.

All stats I have seen from actual studies, cite numbers from 12 to 14% total for abortion reasons of pregnancy as result of abuse (rape, incest,...) or due to medical reasons (with either child or mother).

So to say that 99% of them are just for the reason of "inconvenience" clearly must be wrong.
The real number is actually between 85% and 90%.

It's also kind of dishonest to call that "inconvenience" btw. Because that makes it sound as if it is some trivial decision people make as in "i don't feel like having a kid today...", which is off course a horrible misrepresentation.

This is almost always a very hard, very tragic time for these people and probably one of the biggest and hardest decisions they will ever have to make.

To call it mere "inconvenience", and even accuse them all of being "heartless murderers" etc is absolutely horrible and incredibly disrespectful, also exposing an extreme lack of empathy and compassion.

Fine if you don't agree with the practice, but there are other ways to approach this, that do not completely deny/ignore all the dificulties and factors that come into play in such decisions.

And neither does it help to cite false statistics.

Here's the address to a site I was just looking at concerning USA and worldwide abortion numbers that might interest you: Number of Abortions in US & Worldwide - Number of abortions since 1973 Of course, if you are in favor of abortion, I doubt these numbers will make any difference to you either

Indeed, they do not.
But that doesn't mean that I won't object, if they seem to be invented on the spot.

But indeed, the numbers, as well as the reasons given, are irrelevant to me in context of the debate of if abortion should be legally permissable or not.

Because for me, this is about the mother and her rights to her own body.
A mother's rights over her own body have priority over the rights of a third person depending on that body. Especially early in the pregnancy.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Mass starvation? Where do you live?

On planet earth.

You aren't aware of all the species that keep disappearing, with many more being in danger of extinction, as a direct result of human activity, overpopulation and over consumption?

Maybe you should read up a bit.
Just last week, we actually already consumed all that earth can produce for sustaining human population for 1 year. Earth's resources "refuel" off course, by reproduction of plants and animals. It's like a business' annual budget: you can't spend more then you have at your disposal or you'll run into trouble further down the line. You'll end up living on "credit" until it explodes in your face.

Early august, humanity consumed its "annual budget" of resources that earth can produce in a single year. It's not a good thing. This is what overconsumption and overpopulation leads to. This is how you make sure species go extinct and environments get destroyed.

You do know we produce enough food to feed everyone easily right?

We actually don't, because all the side effects (which will come back and spit in our face in the future) of that activity needs to be factored in as well.

We are literally living "on credit" and we WILL have to pay that debt sooner or later.

Why don't we just go out and start killing children? After all it's a terrible world they are growing up in.

Let's try and converse like adults.

 

[JoeP222w]

I've never fully understood why many Christians are opposed to abortion and why it seems to be a very controversial subject, particularly in the US. What is the "religious" reasoning behind the Christian stance on abortion, and are there any circumstances where Christians would support abortion?

I read somewhere that god had allowed the death of thousands or possibly millions of unborn babies, for example in Noahs flood and at Sodom/ Gomorrah (if you believe the bible) as there must have been many pregnant women killed in those incidents, does this affect the thinking of Christians in the modern world when abortion is discussed?

Because every single life is sacred and abortion is the murder of life. God commands "you shall not murder".

There is never a justification to support the murder of children in the womb. Never.

God is the Creator. All babies are formed in Adam, i.e. with a sinful nature. No one deserves God's grace, not even babies in the womb. Likewise, pregnant women are not innocent simply because they are pregnant. God has the sovereign right to execute divine justice on a wicked and sinful people. God is not under any obligation to save any one at all. What is amazing is that He does choose to save people.

However, what happened in the Noahic flood is not comparable to abortion at all. We, the created, have no right to take a human life, especially in the womb.

 

[Friend-of-Jesus]

1. Where does it say that " The soul indwells fetus at conception or soon after." and if its "soon after" could that be many weeks, in which case an abortion at (say) 10 weeks might be before the soul is in the fetus?

For the absolute majority of Christians, it's immediately upon conception. It doesn't say so explicitly in the Bible, but there are verses where people can infer that. "Soon" can mean a week or 40 days - but it's a negligibly small fraction of Christians that would hold such beliefs. That's even less Biblical or perhaps not Biblical. For many it's an open question, and therefore they'd always prefer to err on the side of caution.

2. Not always, sometimes a child is not born, sometimes it dies, sometimes it is malformed.

True. However, nobody thinks of it that way. Again, erring on the side of caution. Statistically today, most pregnancies end with birth of a live and healthy infant.

3. Where does it say that god "breathed the soul into the fetus". My understanding is that God breathed life into the body, as with Adam, therefore the fetus only becomes a life at birth.

Well, Adam was created as an adult. The act of creation itself - a great miracle - happened when body of Adam was formed out of dust and the soul was breathed into Adam as soon as he was formed, not some time after. Same is imagined or assumed about the act of creation happening at the time of conception.

I would like to stress this point, as, psychologically, probably this is the strongest reason against abortion. Abortion is seen as an act of ultimate rebellion against God. In our life, there is nothing we experience is considered a "magical" work of his hand as conception. It's like God himself goes into the body of a woman and creates new life. Miracle right in front of you, inside your body, where to people - man and a woman take part, but are seen as only mechanical participants, providing the conditions for the miracle to be performed by God himself. In all other events of life inside or outside human body can we experience anything like that. In the rest of our life's happenings, it's dull and uninteresting, almost atheistic or materialistic. Bur birth of a child - no. It's observing God suddenly appearing in full view, a smoking gun of His presence if you will.

4. Noted, but life is only life outside the womb.

Very, very few Christians would believe so. Not even people of other faith or unbelievers. They realize it's the same living fetus or even infant developing inside uterus. He or she can move, feel, smell, taste, think, see etc. in exactly same way as a newborn.

 

[rjs330]

An early pregnancy is not a child. In any event children are dieing the world over of starvation, lack of clean water, climate change and war. Apparently god gave us stewardship over the earth and we are messing it up. Look at the way animals are treated in factory farming. Look at the loss of habitat and the mass extinctions around the globe. If we don't get a grip on population growth we will hand over a diseased and terminally declining planet to our grandchildren. Look outside your bubble at the wider planet, do the research then talk about every life is god given. God, if he exists, must be sickened by what mankind is doing. Birth control is paramount now, abortion necessary in some circumstances, that's how it is.

Yes I am sure God is sickened by the evil.in the world. Children are starving not because there is not enough food to feed them. They are are starving because of the evils of man. Governments withholding food from their people.

This planet is fully capable of supporting our life. We do need better stewardship. But we are not killing the planet. Nature is bigger and more reslient than that. Climate is changing because that's the nature of things. It always has and always will. Population growth is not a problem. That's just nonsense.

 

[Dave RP]

For the absolute majority of Christians, it's immediately upon conception. It doesn't say so explicitly in the Bible, but there are verses where people can infer that. "Soon" can mean a week or 40 days - but it's a negligibly small fraction of Christians that would hold such beliefs. That's even less Biblical or perhaps not Biblical. For many it's an open question, and therefore they'd always prefer to err on the side of caution.



True. However, nobody thinks of it that way. Again, erring on the side of caution. Statistically today, most pregnancies end with birth of a live and healthy infant.



Well, Adam was created as an adult. The act of creation itself - a great miracle - happened when body of Adam was formed out of dust and the soul was breathed into Adam as soon as he was formed, not some time after. Same is imagined or assumed about the act of creation happening at the time of conception.

I would like to stress this point, as, psychologically, probably this is the strongest reason against abortion. Abortion is seen as an act of ultimate rebellion against God. In our life, there is nothing we experience is considered a "magical" work of his hand as conception. It's like God himself goes into the body of a woman and creates new life. Miracle right in front of you, inside your body, where to people - man and a woman take part, but are seen as only mechanical participants, providing the conditions for the miracle to be performed by God himself. In all other events of life inside or outside human body can we experience anything like that. In the rest of our life's happenings, it's dull and uninteresting, almost atheistic or materialistic. Bur birth of a child - no. It's observing God suddenly appearing in full view, a smoking gun of His presence if you will.



Very, very few Christians would believe so. Not even people of other faith or unbelievers. They realize it's the same living fetus or even infant developing inside uterus. He or she can move, feel, smell, taste, think, see etc. in exactly same way as a newborn.

Understood thanks. One question, is god putting the life into every animal at the time of conception? If so, you're destroying gifs miracle every time you eat meat or fish?

 

[rjs330]

An early pregnancy is not a child. In any event children are dieing the world over of starvation, lack of clean water, climate change and war. Apparently god gave us stewardship over the earth and we are messing it up. Look at the way animals are treated in factory farming. Look at the loss of habitat and the mass extinctions around the globe. If we don't get a grip on population growth we will hand over a diseased and terminally declining planet to our grandchildren. Look outside your bubble at the wider planet, do the research then talk about every life is god given. God, if he exists, must be sickened by what mankind is doing. Birth control is paramount now, abortion necessary in some circumstances, that's how it is.

If you are that concerned about the population then what about killing people now? Death is death whether it's a baby or a newborn. Perhaps we should have forced sterilization to so we can prevent more births. If you are so bent on limiting our population then maybe we should start euthanizing our prison populations world wide. At least then we are getting rid of guilty people rather than innocent ones.

 

[Dave RP]

Yes I am sure God is sickened by the evil.in the world. Children are starving not because there is not enough food to feed them. They are are starving because of the evils of man. Governments withholding food from their people.

This planet is fully capable of supporting our life. We do need better stewardship. But we are not killing the planet. Nature is bigger and more reslient than that. Climate is changing because that's the nature of things. It always has and always will. Population growth is not a problem. That's just nonsense.

Sorry but I disagree, and environmentalists the world over disagree, population growth is unsustainable, particularly if everyone wants to live as we do in the industrialised world. We cannot sustain the population as it is and maintain a balance with nature, and I'm very surprised that more people of faith don't see that. It's not just about humans, it's also about the rest of life on the planet.

 

[rjs330]

Understood thanks. One question, is god putting the life into every animal at the time of conception? If so, you're destroying gifs miracle every time you eat meat or fish?

God made man a living soul. He did not do that to animals. Murder is only biblically applied to mankind not animal kind. We are not doing anything wrong by killing and eating animals according to scripture.

 

[Friend-of-Jesus]

Understood thanks. One question, is god putting the life into every animal at the time of conception? If so, you're destroying gifs miracle every time you eat meat or fish?

Yes, the life of animals, plants, microorganisms etc. are all being created by God. Not always is it seen as a direct miracle, more of a natural process. God's hand isn't seen so obviously active, more silently behind the scenes. It's perceived increasingly so with less complex life forms. It "just happens".

In Genesis, God only created man and woman individually, each as a single organism. He dedicated them the attention of special creative work, like a sculptor with a sculpture or an artist with a painting. As for the rest of life, it was created "as wholesale", in a single spur of group creation. He spake, and millions of plant forms were created. He spake, and millions of dry land and ocean animal forms were created. Not so with humans, it was a true chef d'oeuvre of His creativity.

Also, in Genesis God gave all of the natural world for humans to rule over and consume as food... The Bible grants people the noble right to kill any life, except human, for the purpose of their survival. Even for entertainment (hunting or fishing) it's okay, because we are the royal rulers of earth, co-rulers with God, created in His image and likeness. We are "gods" in this universe. All other forms of life are clearly inferior. In case of abortion, it's about taking life of same "god"-creature as us. In case of animals etc, we are "gods" against creation. Animals, insects etc. aren't seen as having an eternal soul. Except maybe for higher mammals used as pets - our beloved dogs, cats, horses etc., who are humanized and so can also appear in heaven after death. We usually don't eat those anyway. In mental pictures of heaven, Mr Smith walks with his favourite dog he owned right before his death. Why not with all his lifetime pets? Why don't mosquitos or hornets fly around him, too?

From very young age I couldn't eat meat having special empathy towards animals. I even emphasized with trees and other plants, thinking if you break a branch they suffer same way as people do. As a kid, at some point I refused to eat meat. In time, my parents somehow made me look at meat differently. With talks and threats. I remember vomiting a few times after being forced to eat meat. I eat meat today, but without much enjoyment. Sometimes I even detest it, especially when it's not ground meat but actual body parts like chicken drumsticks... I've learned to suppress the feelings... I prefer vegetarian meals, though.

Psychologically, it all comes down to perception of animals, fish etc. as having or not having a soul equal to ours. It's not a black and white simple picture though.

 

[Friend-of-Jesus]

Very, very few Christians would believe so. Not even people of other faith or unbelievers. They realize it's the same living fetus or even infant developing inside uterus. He or she can move, feel, smell, taste, think, see etc. in exactly same way as a newborn.

I just wanted to add as already discussed above, that this humanization of fetus starts only with certain gestation age for most mothers. Perhaps psychologically from the moment they feel the fetus move or hear their heartbeat at ultrasound imaging. That's why anti-abortion groups try and humanize even the youngest of fetuses by showing them having human-like head and limbs, fingers, working hearts, etc.

 

[Dave RP]

If you are that concerned about the population then what about killing people now? Death is death whether it's a baby or a newborn. Perhaps we should have forced sterilization to so we can prevent more births. If you are so bent on limiting our population then maybe we should start euthanizing our prison populations world wide. At least then we are getting rid of guilty people rather than innocent ones.

I'm sure you know you are being ridiculous, and I'm sure you know that proper birth control does not require living people to be murdered. But thanks for the thought.

 

[Dave RP]

Yes, the life of animals, plants, microorganisms etc. are all being created by God. Not always is it seen as a direct miracle, more of a natural process. God's hand isn't seen so obviously active, more silently behind the scenes. It's perceived increasingly so with less complex life forms.

Also, in Genesis God gave all of the natural world for humans to rule over and consume as food... The Bible grants people the noble right to kill any life, except human, for the purpose of their survival. Even for entertainment (hunting or fishing) it's okay, because we are the royal rulers of earth, co-rulers with God, created in His image and likeness. We are "gods" in this universe. All other forms of life are clearly inferior. In case of abortion, it's about taking life of same "god"-creature as us. In case of animals etc, we are "gods" against creation. Animals, insects etc. aren't seen as having an eternal soul. Except maybe for higher mammals used as pets - our beloved dogs, cats, horses etc., who are humanized and so can also appear in heaven after death. We usually don't eat those anyway. In mental pictures of heaven, Mr Smith walks with his favourite dog he owned right before his death. Why not with all his lifetime pets? Why don't mosquitos or hornets fly around him, too?

From very young age I couldn't eat meat having special empathy towards animals. I even emphasized with trees and other plants, thinking if you break a branch they suffer same way as people do. As a kid, at some point I refused to eat meat. In time, my parents somehow made me look at meat differently. With talks and threats. I remember vomiting a few times after being forced to eat meat. I eat meat today, but without much enjoyment. Sometimes I even detest it, especially when it's not ground meat but actual body parts like chicken drumsticks... I've learned to suppress the feelings... I prefer vegetarian meals, though.

Psychologically, it all comes down to perception of animals, fish etc. as having or not having a soul equal to ours. It's not a black and white simple picture though.

Your parents forced you to eat meat, until you vomited. Blimey mate, I feel for you, that's horrendous. I hope you're recovering from that. Anyway, cats and dogs in heaven will make it a much more fun place I'm sure.

 

[Dave RP]

God made man a living soul. He did not do that to animals. Murder is only biblically applied to mankind not animal kind. We are not doing anything wrong by killing and eating animals according to scripture.

That's just as well given the appalling destruction we are doing to our planet, at least when we've messed this one up god will make a nice new one for his worshippers. As I said earlier, I really wish faiths would put away the human centric view of the world and see it as a shared planet between us and the rest of nature. It's the promise of eternal life in a new world that allows Christian's to support destruction of this planet - or so it seems from this discussion.

 

[Friend-of-Jesus]

Your parents forced you to eat meat, until you vomited. Blimey mate, I feel for you, that's horrendous. I hope you're recovering from that. Anyway, cats and dogs in heaven will make it a much more fun place I'm sure.

Such was my life, what can you do. They forced me do other things, too. Like cleaning up my room, going to my soccer trainings or doing homework. I'm eternally grateful to them for the most things they made me do.

Originally I come from a Muslim culture where meat is almost worshiped. Former nomadic sheep and camel herders. The cult of meat is still strong. So, a non-meat-eating boy was an impossibly huge embarrassment to my dad. It was him, not my mom, who put the meat into my mouth with force and threatened with the worst of spankings if I didn't chew and swallow. It's so good, isn't it, son? Why can't you enjoy it like all real men do?

I was very young, so I barely remember it and it healed quickly. I learned. I took it as a loving act in my dad's understanding, not violence, you know.

 

[Dave RP]

Such was my life, what can you do. They forced me do other things, too. Like cleaning up my room, going to my soccer trainings or doing homework. I'm eternally grateful to them for the most things they made me do.

Originally I come from a Muslim culture where meat is almost worshiped. Former nomadic sheep and camel herders. The cult of meat is still strong. So, a non-meat-eating boy was an impossibly huge embarrassment to my dad. It was him, not my mom, who put the meat into my mouth with force and threatened with the worst of spankings if I didn't chew and swallow. It's so good, isn't it, son? Why can't you enjoy it like all real men do?

I was very young, so I barely remember it and it healed quickly. I learned. I took it as a loving act in my dad's understanding, not violence, you know.

Good for you, well done. We've all
Had various forms of sh** in our lives and we mustn't let those bad things define us.

 

[Friend-of-Jesus]

Good for you, well done. We've all
Had various forms of sh** in our lives and we mustn't let those bad things define us.

In post #210 I've added, I think, a very important notion of individual creation vs. group creation of Genesis chapters 1-2, that by itself elevates humans above all life forms as superior and special to God.

 

[Friend-of-Jesus]

I really wish faiths would put away the human centric view of the world and see it as a shared planet between us and the rest of nature.

You ask the impossible. This view sits on faiths' most fundamental understanding of the world. You basically ask, "I really wish faiths would stop believing in what they're believing". Within the ideologies of Abrahamic faiths, human centric view is not up for debate. It's the corner stone.

Before accepting Islam, my people where Shamanist. This ancient faith is still going strong among them in pure form or amalgamated in syncretism. Within shamanistic worldview, all nature, animate and inanimate, is looked at as equal to humans, if not higher. Every form of physical existence has a spirit of equal or higher quality. Humans, animals, rocks, fire, etc. Any object or even such phenomena as illness, rain or good luck - are all of same kind of spirit. The world is seen as an interconnected ecosystem, physical aspect being a superficial manifestation of the invisible world inherent in everything. Killing an animal was a great deal - it was a sin to take any life without justified need. You kill baby deer, your child could die, they believed... Or you kill mother fox with little ones - there would be no rain that year, etc. You couldn't disturb pastures with herds beyond their ability to fully recover. Even if it meant starvation of children (common occurrence then), so be it. A folk song about my people's old way of life goes, "every time we have to leave a pasture, several one-year old camels reach destination empty". The young camels were used for transporting children. My great-grandfather was one of only 2 surviving 13 siblings, 11 perishing from starvation and disease (typhoid fever, I was told).

In my culture, consuming young animals was strictly forbidden. Only after moving to Canada I experienced eating lamb or veal, it was a strange idea to me: mutton or beef before only. It's still a sin to eat anything other than fully-grown animal, which reached its peak of potential. Eating a young is not being grateful to the spirit of animal life, being "esraf" or wasteful. Wastefulness was almost sin #1 when I was growing up, having to pick up and eat every little piece of rice from my plate. Bread is revered as sacred. You can't drop it, throw it into garbage (give to birds instead) or treat it without respect in any way. Even crumbs must be gathered and eaten. They say, otherwise "Bread will strike you". The strongest oath or swear is "Let bread strike me!" indicating the worst possible curse.

It was believed the natural world will come back to you and ruthlessly retaliate to eradicate you, your family, your nation, if you're not mindful about how you use the resources - water, food, wood etc. In other words, if you act as a pest, nature will get rid of you eventually.

I think, this basic faith of shamanism/animism was common throughout the world at some past. When I hear about the beleifs of native North Americans here, they are almost 100% compatible with my people's original beliefs. Some nations of the world have left those ways and accepted Abrahamic religions or other types of religions, but this ancient outlook at the world still exists -- in full form, in syncretism or hidden in archetypes.

It's the promise of eternal life in a new world that allows Christian's to support destruction of this planet - or so it seems from this discussion.

Not just that. It's not only that earth is seen as disposable. It goes much deeper than that - to the purpose of life itself. The material world is nothing but props for the only drama of the universe - spiritual fight for the human soul. God, satan, angels, demons are the main characters. A soccer match, we are the ball. Trample the lawn all you want, as long as our team wins. We can destroy the planet, give birth to billions and billions who break sustainability balance, do whatever - doesn't matter as long as human souls are steadily going to heaven. Anything else is simply unimportant.

 

[stevil]

The morality of abortion stands or falls with how we understand the moral worth and value of humanity. For Christians, we believe that humans are unique among God's creation. We are created in the image of God and possess inherent moral worth and value.

Understood.

Scientifically we know that human life begins at conception.

Agreed.

Therefore, for a Christian, human life is morally valuable from its very beginning.

Understood.

Therefore, it follows that terminating a human life for convenience sake (which is why 99% of all abortions are committed), is morally wrong, and consequently abortion becomes a form of murder.

I guess that is "murder" in a biblical sense rather than a legal one?

The only reason that abortion is acceptable in the first place is because we have fabricated an artificial and subjective distinction between a human being and a human person.

I don't think that this is quite true.

The law of the land is used to govern and put constraints on behaviours of all people within society. The society being governed is a diverse society, one which includes people from many cultures, many belief systems (or non belief).

In many developed nations there is a distinction between the governing bodies and any particular belief system (no doubt due to wanting to be inclusive of all governed society members, not favouring those belonging to a particular belief system).

For an atheist, like myself, you cannot appeal to the bible and say, see, all human life is sacred.
I agree that a human life starts at conception, but I do not support the government in interfering with the mother's decision on whether to continue with her pregnancy. I do not hold that life as sacred.

As far as I understand it "person" is a legal label, and it is used to attach certain rights to anything that belongs to that label. The law makers have drawn a line at what point in the development of a fetus the law will kick in to protect that fetus. Having this in the late term gives pregnant mothers the opportunity (under law) to terminate their pregnancy if they wish. This allows the mother to make decisions on her desire to have a child, her ability to bring one up, her desire/ability/reluctance to bring up a child with certain deformities. The line in the sand gives her some time to think about these things, gives doctors some time to assess the health of the fetus, and gives her a deadline date by when she must make her decision.
I know this doesn't conform to Christian values and beliefs, but society also includes many non Christians.

It is then asserted after this fabricated distinction is created that only human persons have moral worth and value.

Law does not need to be based on moral beliefs or ethics.

 

[Friend-of-Jesus]

This allows the mother to make decisions on her desire to have a child, her ability to bring one up, her desire/ability/reluctance to bring up a child with certain deformities.

Without very good sex education and easily available contraceptives, unfortunately, abortion becomes a go-to "contraceptive" method. And that is really nasty.