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I only know what information you have offered. You claim to be an atheist, which means you do not believe any gods exist. This is the information I based my post on.
Not believing gods exist is not a worldview.
I disagree with that. I find atheism forces other things into one's worldview.
Something i know about. Before i begin let me say that all people are dishonest. No one is blameless. I myself considered atheists dishonest and have said so and i was wrong. I can't say how many are dishonest so for me to say all or many are dishonest wouldn't necessarily be true. Now the reason i think some are dishonest is because i have talked to quite a few of them and think they would try anything to win the argument including lying. in other areas i cant say if they are dishonest. No offense intended because I'm guilty also.
However to not believe in god when most of the world does is to think yourself smarter than most people, ever.
It takes more "faith" to not believe in god than to believe in him.
I too am guilty, i do not judge, I only bring a light into a dark room. Look around you friends. Doesn't creation look like it was designed?
Man made Global warming was a cruel lie.
Darwin was a sexist Neanderthal, if he was alive today i think he wouldn't believe his own theory.
Something created all this. If it wasn't god who was it?
And how about this, what in all creation came first? Something was the beginning and yet something had to also not have a beginning. What could not have a beginning except God?
It takes more faith to believe in atheism than God. Seriously God is real. He will prove it to you if you ask him to.
An atheist is someone that doesn't believe in a God. At least that's what i think it means. You are right, depending on individual circumstances who can really say why someone thinks a certain way. I don't know everything. But i do know that there are no atheists in foxholes. When we are about to die, we all believe in him then. That's what i believe.
Hi JGG, not wanting to get dragged back into the debate, but just to let you know what I think about the comment you made that creation doesn't appear to have a designer essentially because you wish there was something different about it.
I have no idea why God chose to make man as weak as he is, especially given the idea that man is His most prized "achievement". But the reason could very well be that man isn't His only prized achievement and quite possibly He has equal love for the wellbeing of our parasites.
Who knows. All I really mean to say is that if God has a reason to make something the way it is, does that something have a right to say you shouldn't have made me like this?
For example (and the best example I can think of since humans aren't yet the creators of life) a candle might like being a candle. It might not like the fact that every day it diminishes further into nothing. Does the candle have the right to think "maybe I just happened by accident because surely if someone made me he wouldn't allow this to happen to me? I mean, I see light bulbs and they live a long, healthy life". I think a lot of those problems you see are due to being dissatisfied to some extent, perhaps by seeing how other species are seemingly more advantaged by having heightened senses of sight, smell and hearing.
The point I am getting at here is that your conclusion is based on a presumption that God doesn't have some sort of a reason for something, simply because we happen not to like it. There's quite a difference between those arguments though, on one hand you have humans wishing to be better than everything else, on the other hand you have God saying "this should be sufficient for the humans".
There's still a lot of speculation around this topic, it wouldn't pay to jump too fast on that band wagon before you've actually had definitive proof that God doesn't exist. Cart before horse so to speak.
OK maybe there are some atheist in foxholes, all i know is if i was in one, i would be praying.
God through his son Jesus has shown me the way to love. The world cannot love only hate. I hated atheists and others who didn't agree with me just like most people. But God has caused me to love my enemies. He must be real because i had allot of hate. I still hate sometimes when i get weak, but I love my enemies, how is this possible if God was Not real? What power has done this if it wasn't God?
Jesus is the way, the truth, everything else fails to teach us to love.
I fail to love so God Helps me. Believe what you will, once i only hated but now i also can love, God is real.
Most Christians will avoid the word "perfect" when describing God's creation, the Bible states "very good" in every translation I've read, it doesn't state "perfect" although that word exists in other places of the Bible. I'm not sure where you get the idea that God made a perfect world, most people seem to acknowledge that because something went wrong and sin crept into human society, sin had always existed, just the human was not aware of it and therefore didn't desire it. Look carefully, it doesn't say that humans invented sin, only that they became perceptive to it. Also Paul mentions that death entered the world through Adam (Romans 5:12), and Genesis tells us that the consequence of disobedience was death, so I do believe there was no death in the world God had originally made.Don't misunderstand me, it's tough to say that I wish things were different. It's more of a matter of curiosity, and being skeptical. Why would God create us with a potentially fatal appendix that serves no other purpose. It's a matter of the argument for creationism is that "creation" is too perfect to have not been designed by a perfect designer. I'm just pointing out that it's not exactly perfect.
I suppose it is possible, but it isn't specifically stated by God that He loves or hates these things. So we can only speculate.Are you suggesting that God loves cancer, and heart disease?
Only by your process of logic. In fact, God does not tell us the reason for everything, it is the human that is so intent on finding the reason for everything. Humans are knowledge seekers, knowledge is a form of idolatry for some people. Although you can live your life long and prosperous and end up in the same place whether you know what powers the sun or not, knowledge is ultimately as valuable as gold at "the end of the day". The actual point I was making here though is based upon a false presumption of mine. I had presumed Romans 9:20-21 - Passage Lookup - New Living Translation - BibleGateway.com was relevant, but that wasn't what you were thinking and this becomes apparent in the following remarks:That could be true, however, by making this claim, you undermine the argument that "creation" is obviously designed. That argument requires that we can look at the universe and see the intent of designer. Now that you say we can't see the designer's intent, that argument is gone.
Well then, you probably don't need toI admit, I don't quite get your candle analogy.
And this is what I didn't realize, it's a mistake on my part for misunderstanding you.Not better than everything else, I didn't even get into how other creatures have systems which are better than ours, because that's not even the point.
I think it's hard to really picture how much the world changed with just one act which opened the human's mind to the perception of evil, it's like getting a mirror, smashing it and still calling it a mirror.I looked at all of the obvious ways our bodies need to be better. What's the purpose of having 50% of people possessing eyes that don't work properly? Why make humans so weak to cancer, and heart disease? Why an appendix? This gives us skeptics plenty of reason to be skeptical, and destroys the "perfect design" argument.
I suspect when you have nothing else in life but to face God and He says "I gave you a whole world full of proof, and x number of people to tell you and you still wouldn't acknowledge me", you might feel a bit foolish that your "skepticism" had been so important to you. I'm interested to know why you value skepticism so much, do you perceive a risk with acknowledging God?I do not require proof, or even evidence that God doesn't exist. It's not something I need to, or even strive prove. The burden of proof falls on those making the claim. Skeptics require no evidence, those trying to convince the skeptic do.
I suspect when you have nothing else in life but to face God and He says "I gave you a whole world full of proof, and x number of people to tell you and you still wouldn't acknowledge me", you might feel a bit foolish that your "skepticism" had been so important to you. I'm interested to know why you value skepticism so much, do you perceive a risk with acknowledging God?
I'm willing to bet you pray even when you're not in a foxhole.
I would suggest: Conscience, empathy, maturity, or social pressure.
Are you saying that non-Christians don't love? I'll get ahead of you here, just in case, and suggest that that is categorically untrue.
Well, I guess good luck with that.
To some extent you are correct in stating what I believe. I do agree that second hand accounts of what God is is useless. What I think when I say this is probably much different from what you think though, such are the wonders of communication. One thing I learned when I came to hear God speak is that hearing the truth about God has <=-1 to do with hearing truth come from God Himself.Well to start with the second thing first, we've already agreed that believing second-hand accounts of what God is, is basically useless. That being said, any evidence (there is no proof, that much is clear) that God has provided is ambiguous enough that nobody can agree on it. That being said, if you can provide evidence for god that is unambiguous I will officially be impressed.
This is why it's a tactic I try to avoid, you can't actually describe God with words. The Bible records God's interaction with people, it doesn't actually describe His nature because an infinite someone cannot be sufficiently described with words. Even you or I can't be sufficiently described with words. All the religious belief that has attempted to describe God suddenly makes sense when you come to hear God's voice and realize who He is, until that point you are just stuck with your imagination trying to picture this flying spaghetti monster. No, the Bible teaches us who God is by showing us His nature, His response to certain situations and the types of decisions He makes. This is one way we can come to be familiar with God's nature that when we become spiritually perceptive we can pick God's voice from among the chorus of lies trying to sway our beliefs away from the truth.Why am I skeptical? If I were to ask you to define God as comepletely as you could, you would give me whatever definition you feel appropriate. If I were to go to another board, and ask a believer there to define God for me, I would more than likely receive a completely different definition.
We draw associations to make sense of the world, this is the human plight to understand the world we live in. I think what you're saying about those who make up their own image of God could quite well be indulging in idolatry.It seems that in almost every God concept, God consistently has human emotions, human motivations, human concerns, even human gender. It is difficult for most people to view God as anything other than a really "big" human. It doesn't help that everybody customizes their concept of God to what they want or expect God to be. White supremacists believe in a God who values white people more than everyone else, Americans tend to believe in a God who wants them to be rich and prosperous, and protects them, and people in third-world countries believe in a God that punishes their land because they are sinners, or rewards those who do harm to non-believers.
That demonstrates a fear of God exists even in those who don't know the God of Israel. There's plenty of times God has been put up against a false god and He came out on top. Same can't be said for god against god I don't think, their house is a shambles. As for God being in charge of every facet of existence, from rain to drought, I do tend to believe He is. The reason why there is flooding and drought in various parts of the word? No idea. Possibly due to geography especially the destruction of rain forest for pasture I suspect would have an impact on global weather stability. I'm not an expert in weather, I do believe Elijah in 1 Kings 17 had been speaking God's will when God said He would cease the rain.Pretty much all theists believe in a God who will reward them, and punish everyone else, especially those who believe in that different, false God.
Don't presume this is so. I don't disbelieve these gods exist, I just don't trust them. And really, it isn't me who you think is driving this division, it is Jesus the Christ who claims to be the son of God. You either believe He is the Lord, a liar or a lunatic. I don't see any other opinion you could have about Him.If there are 10,000 different concepts of God out there (there are far more), you and I share skepticism of 9,999 of them. We are both skeptical of Thor, and Zeus, and Ra. We are both skeptical of Allah, and the stories of Muhammad, or Xenu, or the teachings of Buddha. We both find reincarnation tough to believe, and the Raelians aren't even worth getting into. Really your question isn't "why I don't believe in God," but "why don't I believe in your God?" If I believed in Hubbard and Scientology, that probably wouldn't sit too well with you either.
That doesn't answer the question, why is skepticism valuable. Just because everyone has disagreements does not substantiate skepticism. You happen to have disagreements because you are skeptical.So, to answer your question, why do I value skepticism?
(1) It doesn't seem as though anybody can really agree on what God is. Nearly all theists claim to have some special knowledge of God, but person A disagrees rather vehemently with what person B claims to know. So my first reason for being skeptical is that I will be honest enough to admit that "I don't know." If there is a God, I don't know the first thing about it, so I'm not going to pretend to. On the other hand, as long as everyone is disagreeing as to what God is, I cannot trust their testimonies and accounts either.
Interesting, does the world revolve around you and only you? Maybe one day you will actually see that it revolves around God, as it ought to. Some people just can't manage to accept this so they deny it. I'm interested to discover the motive behind this, hence why I asked you.(2) I don't really desire a God. That is to say, I don't feel that I want or deserve some sort of reward or punishment after I die, I don't want answers for the sake of having answers, and I don't feel a need to be saved, or protected from the world outside.
Right there: do you expect that when you believe you will have the same faith as someone else? Why would you think so?(3) What I do have is curiosity, and a desire to understand things. That means asking lots questions, especially when things don't seem to make sense. It has been my experience that faith doesn't hold up very well to questions, so faith tends not to stick to me.
Yes I would. If however I lived after you had existed and people had given their accounts of witnessing your unassisted flight or mind reading, I would believe so unless there was proof that it was a hoax. I understand such proof doesn't exist in the case of Jesus, do you happen to have some proof against Jesus?We are all skeptical nearly all of the time. If I told you that I was capable of unassisted flight, or that I could read minds, you probably wouldn't believe me. You would probably ask for evidence, or proof. You would want to know how I do these fantastic things.
Don't you believe animals can communicate? I talk with dogs and they listen and talk back. Not with words mind you, but you can tell what they think about this and that.That is understandable. Skepticism isn't a bad word. It's okay to want to understand how things work, why things are the way they are, and to not automatically believe someone when they say they can talk to animals.
This is good, actually a bone with meat on it. I'm pretty sure even those with faith in their religion, even those of the Islamic religion would have some skepticism when someone says that. It could very well be to do with the twisting of scripture to support a belief. What I'm getting at though, which you seem to be evading, is why do you think being skeptical about God is a good thing? Is there some sort of perceived risk if you were to acknowledge God?It's okay to be skeptical when someone tells you that there are 72 virgins waiting for you once you fly a plane into a building full of people.
Ah, we are getting somewhere. You like to be correct do you? I am thinking that might be what motivates you to deny God until you've had sufficient proof that makes Him undeniable. Is this an accurate assertion?(4) In early 19th century Joanna Southcott had faith that she was the woman spoken of in Revelation. Joanna had faith that she would give birth to the Messiah and that would bring about the end of the world. She was wrong, she didn't give birth to anyone, clearly the world didn't end, and she died not long after her failed due-date. Her followers had faith that she would raise herself from the dead. They're still waiting. Charles Welsey had faith that the world would end at the end of the 18th century. He was wrong. His brother John had faith that it would end at the beginning of the 19th century. He too was wrong. Edgar Whisenant had faith that the rapture would occur in 1988. He was also wrong.
These people all had faith without reason, and they were all wrong. These are just a few examples of obviously misplaced faith. To me, it serves as inpiration for me to be skeptical.
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