Why an eternal hell?

[holo]

Oh, and another thing. Are the animals that were sacrifices in the OT burning in hell right now? Why or why not?

 

[seeingeyes]

Jobs friends never said anything about God punishing in heaven?

No...I'm asking, "Why were they surprised by God's reaction?"

 

[Fatesrequiem]

there is no way to know for sure what hell is nor how long, i imagine he would on each person differently, thats just a guess. ive been told lucifers sentence was to be
a millenia and if that were true then that is not eternal, and if hes as they say the unforgiveable n absolute evil then i imagine anynsentence one would receive would be significantly reduced

 

[createdtoworship]

No...I'm asking, "Why were they surprised by God's reaction?"

they didn't know the word, like Job did. My point is that it is possible to be a job, and not jobs friends. Simply by study.

 

[createdtoworship]

there is no way to know for sure what hell is nor how long, i imagine he would on each person differently, thats just a guess. ive been told lucifers sentence was to be
a millenia and if that were true then that is not eternal, and if hes as they say the unforgiveable n absolute evil then i imagine anynsentence one would receive would be significantly reduced

what do you mean lucifer's sentence was a millenia? Got any verses for that?

 

[OzSpen]

Oh, and another thing. Are the animals that were sacrifices in the OT burning in hell right now? Why or why not?

Who does the Bible say goes to hell? Are you inventing an idea here that is straight out of your mind of the mind of another?

Oz

 

[holo]

Who does the Bible say goes to hell? Are you inventing an idea here that is straight out of your mind of the mind of another?

Oz

I don't think the bible is all that clear about anybody going to eternal torment, there seems to be a LOT more verses that say the exact opposite, that ALL will be saved eventually. I haven't landed on a conclusion on that though.

But my point here was that if the righteous punishment for a sin is eternal torture, then all the sacrificed animals in the OT must be tortured as we speak, and will still be tortured in a million trillion gazillion years. Because the blame was laid on them. Likewise, if Jesus took our punishment then Jesus must be tortured eternally as well. Unless the punishment is as straightforward as the bible says: the wages of sin is death.

 

[OzSpen]

I don't think the bible is all that clear about anybody going to eternal torment, there seems to be a LOT more verses that say the exact opposite, that ALL will be saved eventually. I haven't landed on a conclusion on that though.

But my point here was that if the righteous punishment for a sin is eternal torture, then all the sacrificed animals in the OT must be tortured as we speak, and will still be tortured in a million trillion gazillion years. Because the blame was laid on them. Likewise, if Jesus took our punishment then Jesus must be tortured eternally as well. Unless the punishment is as straightforward as the bible says: the wages of sin is death.

The Bible is very clear about who will suffer eternal life and who will suffer eternal punishment.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. ” (Matt. 25:31-46 NIV)

I note that your post is very short on details of the Bible's support for universalism - all will be saved eventually.

Please provide the exegesis from Scripture to prove your point.

Oz

 

[holo]

The Bible is very clear about who will suffer eternal life and who will suffer eternal punishment.

Appartently it's not, seeing as this thread has been going on for a while

When you say it's pretty clear I actually have no idea which "side" you're on.

I note that your post is very short on details of the Bible's support for universalism - all will be saved eventually.

Please provide the exegesis from Scripture to prove your point.

Like I said, I haven't come to a real conclusion on that. I would expect God to be more in control of His creation than to let a single guy ruin it for the entire mankind forever, then running around putting out fires so to speak, allowing satan to win the vast majority of people He ever created - all because He's a "gentleman" who can't (according to some law He himself made, I guess) decide who's to get saved and who's not.

And there are verses like
Romans 5:18
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

My point here: does the word "all" here mean "all" in the beginning of the sentence and "a few" at the end?

And in any case it doesn't even seem like it's our decision to be sinners or not:
Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

I don't get how that goes together with free will which I suppose must be a prerequisite for being moral or immoral, but that's what the bible appears to say. When I object to it, this is what I find, and I can't claim to understand exactly what it all means:

Rom 9:14-22
What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory —

And of course
Ephesians 1:4
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.

I'm not so sure about anybody really choosing salvation.
I'm pretty sure that eternal torment is not found in the bible, especially not compared to doctrines about God being just etc.
I'm not sure if everybody will be saved eventually, but that's what I'd expect from a God with control and some kind of purpose.

 

[OzSpen]

holo,

You give you slogan as "fundamentally liberal". Is that your view of Christianity? Liberal Christianity?

This verse that you quoted refuses to endorse universalism:
1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

John 3:16 is very clear that eternal life is only for "whoever believes".

Here is a refutation of universalism.

Oz

 

[tankerG]

So, the God of love and a few of us "lucky" ones will live "happily ever after"? We will all do this, despite knowing that as we celebrate, BILLIONS of the "crown of his creation", will experience a NEVER ENDING TORMENT?
The God I know, is no such God. Admittedly, there are places in the Bible that are hard to handle. But the way I figure it, in the same way that a University Professor will not be able to use an instruction manual to explain the inner workings of a super computer, too a two year old...
What I mean is that there is no way God can explain to us infants, all that He is and all of what He has planned, through the texts of the Bible. I trust that we will see things more clearly then, but for now, it is enough for me to feel assured that the God I know, is not a God that would torment anyone eternally, for any reason. So, you are welcome to keep your God. But I choose to believe that a correct interpretation of the Bible...would never lead to a tortuous God.

So, you expect that, because we don't have "complete" infinite knowledge, we're off the hook for eternal judgement? That, we aren't responsible for what we can't fully comprehend?
Do you drive a car? Do you know everything about it? How it works, the bearing clearances, the chemical and physical processes that go on under the hood? No? Then, you shouldn't be driving. Because you don't have "complete" knowledge.
Do you use a cell phone? Do you grasp all of the inner workings of its components? Do you understand all the circuitry and electronic processes and quantum vibrations going on in it? No? Then how do you talk on it?
I don't understand all that stuff, but that lack of understanding doesn't prevent me from driving my car and talking on the cell phone. Our lack of complete detailed knowledge about these things doesn't prevent our using them. We know enough to use them, and that's all we need.
Everything that can be known about God He has revealed to us - in a way we can understand. And there are no excuses. (Rom. 1:19-20) He has told us enough for us to make - and be responsible for - our life decisions. And the most important decision we make is whether to accept Christ or not. We don't know everything that will happen when we accept Jesus. There are things ahead of us that are not visible to us now that will occur because we today say "Yes" to Jesus. Eternal glories, creation-wide vision, joys beyond compare. Our not knowing those things now doesn't short-circuit our obtaining them later.
The same with hell. We most probably don't know all the ramifications of our rejecting Jesus here. But not being aware of those consequences doesn't excuse our receiving them.

 

[tankerG]

If people didn't believe in eternal torment to begin with, who in their right mind would come up with such a concept, that because God is infinite, sin must also be infinite, and the punishment as well?

God is the one who prepared the everlasting fire for the devil and his angels. That was the punishment for Lucifer leading the heavenly rebellion in some past age. When this occurred we aren't told. And we don't need to know "when". That people didn't know about it doesn't change the fact of it's existence one bit.

It wasn't until Jesus spoke about this in Matthew 25 that we get a glimpse (and that was enough!) of people going into such fire. And Revelation 20 sealed it. Lucifers rebellion against the Holy God was eternal banishment from God and fiery torment. And those not written in the Book of Life are cast in there as well.

We (as believers) get to inherit what Lucifer willingly threw away - living in the very Presence of God. And unbelievers (by rejecting God) get what Satan gets for his rejection of God.

 

[seeingeyes]

God is the one who prepared the everlasting fire for the devil and his angels. That was the punishment for Lucifer leading the heavenly rebellion in some past age. When this occurred we aren't told. And we don't need to know "when". That people didn't know about it doesn't change the fact of it's existence one bit.

That wouldn't affect the nature of hell, no. But it would change our idea about the nature of God.

If the wages of sin were death, but at some unknown point, God upped the ante to the now classic version of hell, but didn't bother to mention it to us, that would say something about His character, no?

And if the now classic version of hell was always the accurate version, but God didn't bother to tell anyone until Jesus did, that would say something about His character, too.

These conversations will always boil down to 'who God is'.

 

[tankerG]

That wouldn't affect the nature of hell, no. But it would change our idea about the nature of God.

If the wages of sin were death, but at some unknown point, God upped the ante to the now classic version of hell, but didn't bother to mention it to us, that would say something about His character, no?

And if the now classic version of hell was always the accurate version, but God didn't bother to tell anyone until Jesus did, that would say something about His character, too.

These conversations will always boil down to 'who God is'.

Good points!

The Character of God. Now, that would be a good thread!

 

[seeingeyes]

Good points!

The Character of God. Now, that would be a good thread!

They are all threads about the character of God.

But if you start one, I'll happily jump in.

 

[Armistead14]

That wouldn't affect the nature of hell, no. But it would change our idea about the nature of God.

If the wages of sin were death, but at some unknown point, God upped the ante to the now classic version of hell, but didn't bother to mention it to us, that would say something about His character, no?

And if the now classic version of hell was always the accurate version, but God didn't bother to tell anyone until Jesus did, that would say something about His character, too.

These conversations will always boil down to 'who God is'.

The wages of sin are death, God never upped the ante to an eternal torture pit, rather the Roman church adopted the pagan concept of pagan mythology "Hel" and all it's horrors. The grave became became Hel.

Many converts then were devout pagans and followed many pagan themes, like the Jews who tried to combine law with grace, these new pagan converts incorporated many pagan themes into their Christian beliefs, Hel or Hell being one of them.

It was quite a chore to be of one mind then, as greeks, jews and gentiles fought amongst each other to shape doctrine. Like it or not, many of our doctrines have some pagan residue, but sadly the pagan Hel concept became a main theme when the church became political Rome.

Sadly, many Christains still grasp to this pagan doctrine.

 

[createdtoworship]

The wages of sin are death, God never upped the ante to an eternal torture pit, rather the Roman church adopted the pagan concept of pagan mythology "Hel" and all it's horrors. The grave became became Hel.

Many converts then were devout pagans and followed many pagan themes, like the Jews who tried to combine law with grace, these new pagan converts incorporated many pagan themes into their Christian beliefs, Hel or Hell being one of them.

It was quite a chore to be of one mind then, as greeks, jews and gentiles fought amongst each other to shape doctrine. Like it or not, many of our doctrines have some pagan residue, but sadly the pagan Hel concept became a main theme when the church became political Rome.

Sadly, many Christains still grasp to this pagan doctrine.

If our ideas of hell, came from the roman catholics, how is it I have quotes of it before the roman catholic church?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7648154-58/#post60526941

 

[holo]

God is the one who prepared the everlasting fire for the devil and his angels. That was the punishment for Lucifer leading the heavenly rebellion in some past age. When this occurred we aren't told. And we don't need to know "when". That people didn't know about it doesn't change the fact of it's existence one bit.

It wasn't until Jesus spoke about this in Matthew 25 that we get a glimpse (and that was enough!) of people going into such fire. And Revelation 20 sealed it. Lucifers rebellion against the Holy God was eternal banishment from God and fiery torment. And those not written in the Book of Life are cast in there as well.

We (as believers) get to inherit what Lucifer willingly threw away - living in the very Presence of God. And unbelievers (by rejecting God) get what Satan gets for his rejection of God.

If I remember correctly Jesus didn't speak of eternal torment for unsaved people. He did speak about Gehenna, which is something entirely different than the term "hell" which it has been translated into. It would be strange that Jesus would give "a glimpse" of something that severe and regarding so many. One would also expect him to say what hell actually is and not let us wait until some verses in Rev.

But maybe you're right. Maybe God will give humans the punishment that was intended for satan. That would mean God either can't or won't judge righteously. I can't think of anyone who deserves even a hundred years of torture, much less the same punishment as satan.

 

[holo]

holo,

You give you slogan as "fundamentally liberal". Is that your view of Christianity? Liberal Christianity?

This verse that you quoted refuses to endorse universalism:
1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

John 3:16 is very clear that eternal life is only for "whoever believes".

Here is a refutation of universalism.

Oz

My slogan, as it were, is half in jest. I can't define my theology in two words. But yes, it does say a lot of what I believe: that we are fundamentally and completely free. Grace instead og law, spirit instead of letter, and so forth. I don't know if that's what you mean by liberal christianity.

 

[OzSpen]

If I remember correctly Jesus didn't speak of eternal torment for unsaved people. He did speak about Gehenna, which is something entirely different than the term "hell" which it has been translated into. It would be strange that Jesus would give "a glimpse" of something that severe and regarding so many. One would also expect him to say what hell actually is and not let us wait until some verses in Rev.

But maybe you're right. Maybe God will give humans the punishment that was intended for satan. That would mean God either can't or won't judge righteously. I can't think of anyone who deserves even a hundred years of torture, much less the same punishment as satan.

holo,

Isn't Matthew 25:31-46 in your Bible? Verses 41-46 read:

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. ”(NIV)​

These are the words of Jesus.

Oz

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