Why an eternal hell?

[createdtoworship]

what will be most shocking about Heaven will be the fact that God is perfectly Holy even though He does things that are outrageous like create an eternal place of torment.

 

[seeingeyes]

why make a Bible, if He's going to shock us out of the Box? Why put a box there in the first place?

Hard to say, but I know that the experts of the Law were quite certain that they had God all sewn up. Jesus didn't fit the profile, so he had to go.

It is easy for us to apply "lean not on your own understanding" to others, but very very hard to apply it to ourselves.

Here's an exercise for you (if you have some free time for an extra Bible study). We know that in Job, Job ends up being justified by God, and his friends end up being rejected based on their counsel. Here's the challenge: prove Job's friends to be wrong based solely on scripture.

God bless

 

[createdtoworship]

Hard to say, but I know that the experts of the Law were quite certain that they had God all sewn up. Jesus didn't fit the profile, so he had to go.

It is easy for us to apply "lean not on your own understanding" to others, but very very hard to apply it to ourselves.

Here's an exercise for you (if you have some free time for an extra Bible study). We know that in Job, Job ends up being justified by God, and his friends end up being rejected based on their counsel. Here's the challenge: prove Job's friends to be wrong based solely on scripture.

God bless

already done that study in job, ......the Bible has the answer. We don't have to guess anymore.

 

[seeingeyes]

already done that study in job, ......the Bible has the answer. We don't have to guess anymore.

Oh good

So where did they go wrong?

 

[createdtoworship]

Oh good

So where did they go wrong?

lots of ways.

but for one they thought God is just and unable to punish the righteous.

but He can, and the Bible shows this.


Ezekiel 21:2-4

"Son of man, set your face against Jerusalem and preach against the sanctuary. Prophesy against the land of Israel and say to her: 'This is what the LORD says: I am against you. I will draw my sword from its scabbard and cut off from you both the righteous and the wicked. Because I am going to cut off the righteous and the wicked, my sword will be unsheathed against everyone from south to north."

 

[seeingeyes]

lots of ways.

but for one they thought God is just and unable to punish the righteous.

but He can, and the Bible shows this.


Ezekiel 21:2-4

"Son of man, set your face against Jerusalem and preach against the sanctuary. Prophesy against the land of Israel and say to her: 'This is what the LORD says: I am against you. I will draw my sword from its scabbard and cut off from you both the righteous and the wicked. Because I am going to cut off the righteous and the wicked, my sword will be unsheathed against everyone from south to north."

So would you be surprised if God punishes the righteous in heaven as on earth?

 

[createdtoworship]

So would you be surprised if God punishes the righteous in heaven as on earth?

he wouldn't do that because the Bible describes heaven as a place where there will be no more tears.

 

[createdtoworship]

Been awhile since I posted this Jewel:

Objections about Hell. Unbelievers have offered many objections to the doctrine of hell (see Lewis, Problem of Pain, chap. 8).
Hell Is Annihilation. The Bible clearly affirms that there is conscious suffering in hell, such as will cause “weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matt. 8:12). Annihilated persons are not conscious of any suffering. The beast and false prophet in hell will be conscious after a thousand years of suffering (Rev. 19:20; 20:10; see Annihilationism).
Annihilation would not be a punishment but a release from all punishment. Job appeared to prefer annihilation to suffering (Job 3), but God did not grant his desire. Jesus speaks of degrees of punishment (Matt. 5:22), but there can be no degrees of nonexistence.
Annihilation of the wicked is contrary to both the nature of God (see God, Nature of) and the nature of humans made in his image (see Immortality). It is not consistent with an all-loving God to snuff out those who do not do his wishes. Were God to annihilate human beings he would be attacking himself, for we are made in his image (Gen. 1:27), and God is immortal. The fact that these persons are suffering no more justifies annihilating them than it does for a parent to kill a child who is suffering. Even some atheists have insisted that annihilation is not to be preferred to conscious freedom.
Hell Is Temporal, Not Eternal. Hell could not be just a long imprisonment. Hell must exist as long as a righteous God does against whom all hell is opposed.
While the word forever can mean a long time in some contexts, in this context it is used of heaven as well as hell (cf. Matthew 25). Sometimes the emphatic form of “forever and forever” is used. This phrase is used to describe heaven and God himself (Rev. 14:11; 20:10). And God cannot be temporal; he is eternal (Edwards, 2.85–86).
The suggestion that temporal suffering will lead to ultimate repentance is unrealistic. People in hell are gnashing their teeth which does not indicate a more godly and reformed disposition but a more rigid and stubborn rebellion. Hence, after the people have been in hell for some time there is more justification for God’s punishment of them, not less. If hell had a reformational effect on people, then Jesus would not have pronounced woe on those who reject him and are headed for hell (Matt. 11:21–24). No sin would be unforgivable if people in hell were reformable (Matt. 12:31–32). Likewise, Jesus would never have said of Judas that it would have been better if he had never been born.
How can a place devoid of God’s restraining grace accomplish what no efforts of his grace could accomplish on earth, namely, a change of the heart? If hell could reform wicked sinners, then they would be saved without Christ, who is the sole means of salvation (Edwards, 2.520). Suffering has no tendency to soften a hard heart; it hardens it more (see Pharaoh, Hardening of). The recidivism and hardened criminality in modern prisons confirms Edwards’ point.
God’s justice demands eternal punishment. “The heinousness of any crime must be gauged according to the worth or dignity of the person it is committed against” (Davidson, 50). Thus, a murder of a president or pope is deemed more heinous than that of a terrorist or Mafia boss. Sin against an infinite God is an infinite sin worthy of infinite punishment (Edwards, 2.83).
Why Not Reform People? Why eternal punishment? Why doesn’t God try to reform sinners? The answer is that God does try to reform people; the time of reformation is called life. Peter declared that “The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9; cf. 1 Tim. 2:4). However, after the time of reformation comes the time of reckoning (Heb. 9:27). Hell is only for the unreformable and unrepentant, the reprobate (cf. 2 Peter 2:1–6). It is not for anyone who is reformable. If they were reformable, they would still be alive. For God in his wisdom and goodness would not allow anyone to go to hell whom he knew would go to heaven if he gave them more opportunity. As C. S. Lewis observed, the soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will never miss it. Those who seek find. To those who knock it is opened (Lewis, Great Divorce, 69).
God cannot force free creatures to be reformed. Forced reformation is worse than punishment; it is cruel and inhumane. At least punishment respects the freedom and dignity of the person. As Lewis insightfully notes, “To be ‘cured’ against one’s will . . . is to be put on a level with those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals” (Lewis, God in the Dock, 226). Humans are not objects to be manipulated; they are subjects to be respected because they are made in God’s image. Human beings should be punished when they do evil because they were free and knew better. They are persons to be punished, not patients to be cured.
Is Damnation for Temporal Sins Overkill? To punish a person eternally for what he did for a short time on earth seems at first like a gigantic case of overkill. However, on closer examination it turns out to be not only just but necessary. For one thing, only eternal punishment will suffice for sins against the eternal God (see God, Nature of). The sins may have been committed in time, but they were against the Eternal One. Furthermore, no sin can be tolerated as long as God exists, and he is eternal. Hence, punishment for sin must also be eternal.
What is more, the only alternative to eternal punishment is worse, namely, to rob human beings of freedom and dignity by forcing them into heaven against their free choice. That would be “hell” since they do not fit in a place where everyone is loving and praising the Person they want most to avoid. Or, God’s other choice is to annihilate his own image within his creatures. But this would be an attack of God on himself.
Further, without eternal separation, there could be no heaven. Evil is contagious (1 Cor. 5:6) and must be quarantined. Like a deadly plague, if it is not contained it will continue to contaminate and corrupt. If God did not eventually separate the tares from the wheat, the tares would choke out the wheat. The only way to preserve an eternal place of good is to eternally separate all evil from it. The only way to have an eternal heaven is to have an eternal hell.
Finally, if Christ’s temporal punishment is sufficient for our sins eternally, then there is no reason why eternal suffering cannot be appropriate for our temporal sins. It is not the duration of the action but the object that is important. Christ satisfied the eternal God by his temporal suffering, and unbelievers have offended the eternal God by their temporal sins. Hence, Christ’s temporal suffering for sins satisfies God eternally (1 John 2:1), and our temporal sins offend God eternally.
Hell Has No Redeeming Value. To the objection that there is no redemptive value in the damning of souls to hell, it can be pointed out that hell satisfies God’s justice and glorifies it by showing how great and fearful a standard it is. “The vindictive justice of God will appear strict, exact, awful, and terrible, and therefore glorious” (Edwards, 2.87). The more horrible and fearful the judgment, the brighter the sheen on the sword of God’s justice. Awful punishment fits the nature of an awe-inspiring God. By a majestic display of wrath, God gets back the majesty he has been refused. Those who give God no glory by choice during this life will be forced to give him glory in the afterlife.
All people, thus, are either actively or passively useful to God. In heaven believers will actively praise his mercy. In hell unbelievers will be passively useful in bringing majesty to his justice. Just as a barren tree is useful only for firewood, so the disobedient are only fuel for an eternal fire (ibid., 2.126). Since unbelievers prefer to keep at a distance from God in time, why should we not expect this to be their chosen state in eternity?
Hell Is Only a Threat, Not a Reality. Some critics believe hell is only a threat that God will not carry out. But it is blasphemy to hold that a God of truth uses deliberate lies to govern human beings. Further, it implies that “those who think hell is a deception have outwitted God Himself by uncovering it” (Davidson, 53). As Edwards stated it, “They suppose that they have been so cunning as to find out that it is not certain; and so that God had not laid His design so deep, but that such cunning men as they can discern the cheat and defeat the design” (Edwards, 2.516).
Can Saints Be Happy if a Loved One Is in Hell? The presupposition of this question is that we are more merciful than is God. God is perfectly happy in heaven, and he knows that not everyone will be there. Yet he is infinitely more merciful than are we. What is more, if we could not be happy in heaven knowing anyone was in hell, then our happiness is not in our hands but someone else’s. But hell cannot veto heaven. We can be happy in heaven the same way we can be happy eating knowing others are starving, if we have tried to feed them but they have refused the food. Just as we can have healing of bad memories here on earth, even so God will “wipe away all tears” in heaven (Rev. 21:4).
Edwards noted that to suppose God’s mercy does not permit suffering in hell is contrary to fact. God allows plenty of suffering in this world. It is an empirical fact that God and creature-pain are not incompatible (Gerstner, 80). If God’s mercy cannot bear eternal misery, then neither can it bear lesser amounts (Edwards, 2.84). God’s mercy is not a passion or emotion that overcomes his justice. Mercy so construed is a defect in God. It would make him weak and inconsistent with himself, not fit to be a Judge.
The attitudes and feelings of the saints in heaven will be transformed and correspond more to God’s. Hence, we will love only what God loves and hate what he hates. Since God is not miserable at the thought or sight of hell, neither will we—even if it holds people we loved in this life. Edwards devoted a sermon to this: “The End of the Wicked Contemplated by the Righteous.” In Gerstner’s digest of it, “it will seem in no way cruel in God to inflict such extreme suffering on such extremely wicked creatures” (Gerstner, 90).
Why Did God Create People Bound for Hell? Some critics of hell argue that if God knew that his creatures would reject him and eventuate in such a horrible place as hell, then why did he create them in the first place? Wouldn’t it have been better to have never existed than to exist and go to hell?
It is important to note that nonexistence cannot be said to be a better condition than any kind of existence, since nonexistence is nothing. And to affirm that nothing can be better than something is a gigantic category mistake. In order to compare two things, they must have something in common. But there is nothing in common between being and nonbeing. They are diametrically opposed.
Some one may feel like being put out of a life of misery, but such a one cannot even consistently think of nonbeing as a better state of being. True, Jesus said it would have been better if Judas had never been born (Mark 14:21). But this is simply a strong expression indicating the severity of his sin, not a statement about the superiority of nonbeing over being. In a parallel condemnation on the Pharisees, Jesus said Sodom and Gomorrah would have repented had they seen his miracles (Matt. 11:20–24; see Miracle). This does not mean that they actually would have repented (or God would surely have shown them these miracles—2 Peter 3:9). It is simply a powerful figure of speech indicating that their sin was so great that “it would be more tolerable” (vs. 24) in the day of judgment for Sodom than for them.
Further, simply because some will lose in the game of life does not mean it should not be played. Before the Super Bowl ever begins both teams know that one of them will lose. Yet they all will to play. Before every driver in America takes to the road each day we know that people will be killed. Yet we will to drive. Parents know that having children could end in great tragedy for their offspring as well as for themselves. Yet the foreknowledge of evil does not negate our will to permit the possibility of good. Why? Because we deem it better to have played with the opportunity to win than not to have played at all. It is better to lose in the Super Bowl than not to be able to play in it. From God’s standpoint, it is better to love the whole world (John 3:16) and lose some of its inhabitants than not to love them at all.
But People Can’t Help Being Sinners. The Bible says we are born sinners (Ps. 51:5) and are “by nature the children of wrath” (Eph. 2:3). If sinners cannot avoid sinning, is it fair to send them to hell for it?
People go to hell because they are born with a bent to sin, and they choose to sin. They are born on a road that leads to hell, but they also fail to heed the warning signs along the way to turn from destruction (Luke 13:3; 2 Peter 3:9).


from:
Geisler, N. L. (1999). Baker encyclopedia of Christian apologetics. Baker reference library (310). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Books.

 

[seeingeyes]

he wouldn't do that because the Bible describes heaven as a place where there will be no more tears.

And how could Job's friends have known that?

 

[dies-l]

nope, my view of God comes from the Bible and if He is not the way He says in the scriptures only then will I be shocked.

Oh dear! If that is how you think, Jesus Himself couldn't even change your mind. If you can't even acknowledge that there might be the slightest flaw in your interpretation, you are in dangerous spiritual waters.

 

[Metal Minister]

lots of ways.

but for one they thought God is just and unable to punish the righteous.

but He can, and the Bible shows this.

Ezekiel 21:2-4

"Son of man, set your face against Jerusalem and preach against the sanctuary. Prophesy against the land of Israel and say to her: 'This is what the LORD says: I am against you. I will draw my sword from its scabbard and cut off from you both the righteous and the wicked. Because I am going to cut off the righteous and the wicked, my sword will be unsheathed against everyone from south to north."

You understand of course that this is only partially correct. God did not punish Job, but gave Job over to Satan to prove to Satan that Job loved God for His sake, and not the things that God had blessed him with. Remember, He restores all that Job lost after Satan took it all from him. His friends were wrong for assuming Job had done something unrighteous and was being punished, yet God knew this was not so. God rebuked Job at the end for questioning the suffering He had allowed. Remember in Job 38: Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said:

"Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?

Or in other words How dare you question Me without knowing what I know. I love the book of Job, as it shows us that sometimes God will give us to Satan for a time, if only to help prove to Satan that We love God for His grace and love for us!

May God Richly Bless You! MM

 

[seeingeyes]

And how could Job's friends have known that?

Eh, this sounds like I'm trying to be cryptic. I'm sorry about that. I'm not trying to find a 'gotcha' question that will make you look stupid and me look awesome. Truly I'm not.

I'm genuinely trying to explore your conception of how surprised we could possibly be by God...I'm just not going about it very well. Please be patient with a sister.

Let me try again:

Job's friends must have been surprised by God's reaction. They were trying to help Job by calling him out of his sin. They were urging him to repent and be healed. Surely they were not trying to do evil, but good.

How is your idea of who God is and what He is doing different than that of Job's friends, and by what scriptures (that were likely available to Job's friends) would you correct them had you been there?

If this is too far off topic, just reply with a wink, and we'll leave it at that.

God bless

 

[createdtoworship]

Been awhile since I posted this Jewel:

Objections about Hell. Unbelievers have offered many objections to the doctrine of hell (see Lewis, Problem of Pain, chap. 8).
Hell Is Annihilation. The Bible clearly affirms that there is conscious suffering in hell, such as will cause “weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matt. 8:12). Annihilated persons are not conscious of any suffering. The beast and false prophet in hell will be conscious after a thousand years of suffering (Rev. 19:20; 20:10; see Annihilationism).
Annihilation would not be a punishment but a release from all punishment. Job appeared to prefer annihilation to suffering (Job 3), but God did not grant his desire. Jesus speaks of degrees of punishment (Matt. 5:22), but there can be no degrees of nonexistence.
Annihilation of the wicked is contrary to both the nature of God (see God, Nature of) and the nature of humans made in his image (see Immortality). It is not consistent with an all-loving God to snuff out those who do not do his wishes. Were God to annihilate human beings he would be attacking himself, for we are made in his image (Gen. 1:27), and God is immortal. The fact that these persons are suffering no more justifies annihilating them than it does for a parent to kill a child who is suffering. Even some atheists have insisted that annihilation is not to be preferred to conscious freedom.
Hell Is Temporal, Not Eternal. Hell could not be just a long imprisonment. Hell must exist as long as a righteous God does against whom all hell is opposed.
While the word forever can mean a long time in some contexts, in this context it is used of heaven as well as hell (cf. Matthew 25). Sometimes the emphatic form of “forever and forever” is used. This phrase is used to describe heaven and God himself (Rev. 14:11; 20:10). And God cannot be temporal; he is eternal (Edwards, 2.85–86).
The suggestion that temporal suffering will lead to ultimate repentance is unrealistic. People in hell are gnashing their teeth which does not indicate a more godly and reformed disposition but a more rigid and stubborn rebellion. Hence, after the people have been in hell for some time there is more justification for God’s punishment of them, not less. If hell had a reformational effect on people, then Jesus would not have pronounced woe on those who reject him and are headed for hell (Matt. 11:21–24). No sin would be unforgivable if people in hell were reformable (Matt. 12:31–32). Likewise, Jesus would never have said of Judas that it would have been better if he had never been born.
How can a place devoid of God’s restraining grace accomplish what no efforts of his grace could accomplish on earth, namely, a change of the heart? If hell could reform wicked sinners, then they would be saved without Christ, who is the sole means of salvation (Edwards, 2.520). Suffering has no tendency to soften a hard heart; it hardens it more (see Pharaoh, Hardening of). The recidivism and hardened criminality in modern prisons confirms Edwards’ point.
God’s justice demands eternal punishment. “The heinousness of any crime must be gauged according to the worth or dignity of the person it is committed against” (Davidson, 50). Thus, a murder of a president or pope is deemed more heinous than that of a terrorist or Mafia boss. Sin against an infinite God is an infinite sin worthy of infinite punishment (Edwards, 2.83).
Why Not Reform People? Why eternal punishment? Why doesn’t God try to reform sinners? The answer is that God does try to reform people; the time of reformation is called life. Peter declared that “The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9; cf. 1 Tim. 2:4). However, after the time of reformation comes the time of reckoning (Heb. 9:27). Hell is only for the unreformable and unrepentant, the reprobate (cf. 2 Peter 2:1–6). It is not for anyone who is reformable. If they were reformable, they would still be alive. For God in his wisdom and goodness would not allow anyone to go to hell whom he knew would go to heaven if he gave them more opportunity. As C. S. Lewis observed, the soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will never miss it. Those who seek find. To those who knock it is opened (Lewis, Great Divorce, 69).
God cannot force free creatures to be reformed. Forced reformation is worse than punishment; it is cruel and inhumane. At least punishment respects the freedom and dignity of the person. As Lewis insightfully notes, “To be ‘cured’ against one’s will . . . is to be put on a level with those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals” (Lewis, God in the Dock, 226). Humans are not objects to be manipulated; they are subjects to be respected because they are made in God’s image. Human beings should be punished when they do evil because they were free and knew better. They are persons to be punished, not patients to be cured.
Is Damnation for Temporal Sins Overkill? To punish a person eternally for what he did for a short time on earth seems at first like a gigantic case of overkill. However, on closer examination it turns out to be not only just but necessary. For one thing, only eternal punishment will suffice for sins against the eternal God (see God, Nature of). The sins may have been committed in time, but they were against the Eternal One. Furthermore, no sin can be tolerated as long as God exists, and he is eternal. Hence, punishment for sin must also be eternal.
What is more, the only alternative to eternal punishment is worse, namely, to rob human beings of freedom and dignity by forcing them into heaven against their free choice. That would be “hell” since they do not fit in a place where everyone is loving and praising the Person they want most to avoid. Or, God’s other choice is to annihilate his own image within his creatures. But this would be an attack of God on himself.
Further, without eternal separation, there could be no heaven. Evil is contagious (1 Cor. 5:6) and must be quarantined. Like a deadly plague, if it is not contained it will continue to contaminate and corrupt. If God did not eventually separate the tares from the wheat, the tares would choke out the wheat. The only way to preserve an eternal place of good is to eternally separate all evil from it. The only way to have an eternal heaven is to have an eternal hell.
Finally, if Christ’s temporal punishment is sufficient for our sins eternally, then there is no reason why eternal suffering cannot be appropriate for our temporal sins. It is not the duration of the action but the object that is important. Christ satisfied the eternal God by his temporal suffering, and unbelievers have offended the eternal God by their temporal sins. Hence, Christ’s temporal suffering for sins satisfies God eternally (1 John 2:1), and our temporal sins offend God eternally.
Hell Has No Redeeming Value. To the objection that there is no redemptive value in the damning of souls to hell, it can be pointed out that hell satisfies God’s justice and glorifies it by showing how great and fearful a standard it is. “The vindictive justice of God will appear strict, exact, awful, and terrible, and therefore glorious” (Edwards, 2.87). The more horrible and fearful the judgment, the brighter the sheen on the sword of God’s justice. Awful punishment fits the nature of an awe-inspiring God. By a majestic display of wrath, God gets back the majesty he has been refused. Those who give God no glory by choice during this life will be forced to give him glory in the afterlife.
All people, thus, are either actively or passively useful to God. In heaven believers will actively praise his mercy. In hell unbelievers will be passively useful in bringing majesty to his justice. Just as a barren tree is useful only for firewood, so the disobedient are only fuel for an eternal fire (ibid., 2.126). Since unbelievers prefer to keep at a distance from God in time, why should we not expect this to be their chosen state in eternity?
Hell Is Only a Threat, Not a Reality. Some critics believe hell is only a threat that God will not carry out. But it is blasphemy to hold that a God of truth uses deliberate lies to govern human beings. Further, it implies that “those who think hell is a deception have outwitted God Himself by uncovering it” (Davidson, 53). As Edwards stated it, “They suppose that they have been so cunning as to find out that it is not certain; and so that God had not laid His design so deep, but that such cunning men as they can discern the cheat and defeat the design” (Edwards, 2.516).
Can Saints Be Happy if a Loved One Is in Hell? The presupposition of this question is that we are more merciful than is God. God is perfectly happy in heaven, and he knows that not everyone will be there. Yet he is infinitely more merciful than are we. What is more, if we could not be happy in heaven knowing anyone was in hell, then our happiness is not in our hands but someone else’s. But hell cannot veto heaven. We can be happy in heaven the same way we can be happy eating knowing others are starving, if we have tried to feed them but they have refused the food. Just as we can have healing of bad memories here on earth, even so God will “wipe away all tears” in heaven (Rev. 21:4).
Edwards noted that to suppose God’s mercy does not permit suffering in hell is contrary to fact. God allows plenty of suffering in this world. It is an empirical fact that God and creature-pain are not incompatible (Gerstner, 80). If God’s mercy cannot bear eternal misery, then neither can it bear lesser amounts (Edwards, 2.84). God’s mercy is not a passion or emotion that overcomes his justice. Mercy so construed is a defect in God. It would make him weak and inconsistent with himself, not fit to be a Judge.
The attitudes and feelings of the saints in heaven will be transformed and correspond more to God’s. Hence, we will love only what God loves and hate what he hates. Since God is not miserable at the thought or sight of hell, neither will we—even if it holds people we loved in this life. Edwards devoted a sermon to this: “The End of the Wicked Contemplated by the Righteous.” In Gerstner’s digest of it, “it will seem in no way cruel in God to inflict such extreme suffering on such extremely wicked creatures” (Gerstner, 90).
Why Did God Create People Bound for Hell? Some critics of hell argue that if God knew that his creatures would reject him and eventuate in such a horrible place as hell, then why did he create them in the first place? Wouldn’t it have been better to have never existed than to exist and go to hell?
It is important to note that nonexistence cannot be said to be a better condition than any kind of existence, since nonexistence is nothing. And to affirm that nothing can be better than something is a gigantic category mistake. In order to compare two things, they must have something in common. But there is nothing in common between being and nonbeing. They are diametrically opposed.
Some one may feel like being put out of a life of misery, but such a one cannot even consistently think of nonbeing as a better state of being. True, Jesus said it would have been better if Judas had never been born (Mark 14:21). But this is simply a strong expression indicating the severity of his sin, not a statement about the superiority of nonbeing over being. In a parallel condemnation on the Pharisees, Jesus said Sodom and Gomorrah would have repented had they seen his miracles (Matt. 11:20–24; see Miracle). This does not mean that they actually would have repented (or God would surely have shown them these miracles—2 Peter 3:9). It is simply a powerful figure of speech indicating that their sin was so great that “it would be more tolerable” (vs. 24) in the day of judgment for Sodom than for them.
Further, simply because some will lose in the game of life does not mean it should not be played. Before the Super Bowl ever begins both teams know that one of them will lose. Yet they all will to play. Before every driver in America takes to the road each day we know that people will be killed. Yet we will to drive. Parents know that having children could end in great tragedy for their offspring as well as for themselves. Yet the foreknowledge of evil does not negate our will to permit the possibility of good. Why? Because we deem it better to have played with the opportunity to win than not to have played at all. It is better to lose in the Super Bowl than not to be able to play in it. From God’s standpoint, it is better to love the whole world (John 3:16) and lose some of its inhabitants than not to love them at all.
But People Can’t Help Being Sinners. The Bible says we are born sinners (Ps. 51:5) and are “by nature the children of wrath” (Eph. 2:3). If sinners cannot avoid sinning, is it fair to send them to hell for it?
People go to hell because they are born with a bent to sin, and they choose to sin. They are born on a road that leads to hell, but they also fail to heed the warning signs along the way to turn from destruction (Luke 13:3; 2 Peter 3:9).


from:
Geisler, N. L. (1999). Baker encyclopedia of Christian apologetics. Baker reference library (310). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Books.

a quote:

The fact that these persons are suffering no more justifies annihilating them than it does for a parent to kill a child who is suffering.

 

[createdtoworship]

You understand of course that this is only partially correct. God did not punish Job, but gave Job over to Satan to prove to Satan that Job loved God for His sake, and not the things that God had blessed him with. Remember, He restores all that Job lost after Satan took it all from him. His friends were wrong for assuming Job had done something unrighteous and was being punished, yet God knew this was not so. God rebuked Job at the end for questioning the suffering He had allowed. Remember in Job 38: Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said:

"Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?

Or in other words How dare you question Me without knowing what I know. I love the book of Job, as it shows us that sometimes God will give us to Satan for a time, if only to help prove to Satan that We love God for His grace and love for us!

May God Richly Bless You! MM

God does punish the righteous, Job is a good example. God was the agent in charge, it was God that allowed all of this to happen.

 

[createdtoworship]

Eh, this sounds like I'm trying to be cryptic. I'm sorry about that. I'm not trying to find a 'gotcha' question that will make you look stupid and me look awesome. Truly I'm not.

I'm genuinely trying to explore your conception of how surprised we could possibly be by God...I'm just not going about it very well. Please be patient with a sister.

Let me try again:

Job's friends must have been surprised by God's reaction. They were trying to help Job by calling him out of his sin. They were urging him to repent and be healed. Surely they were not trying to do evil, but good.

How is your idea of who God is and what He is doing different than that of Job's friends, and by what scriptures (that were likely available to Job's friends) would you correct them had you been there?

If this is too far off topic, just reply with a wink, and we'll leave it at that.

God bless

Jobs friends never said anything about God punishing in heaven?

 

[holo]

First of all, the Scripture is quite clear that hell is indeed everlasting. Jesus leaves the psychic burden intact. Yes, Scripture speaks of hell as "death" and "destruction" but defines these in terms of a place where "they will be tormented day and night forever and ever" (Rev. 20:10).

That's referring to those who worship the beast.

Apart from that verse, there seems to be ONE other verse that seems to declare that humans will be tortured forever and ever. Not much to build a doctrine on, especially in light of the thousands of verses that say God is a RIGHTEOUS judge.

Why must this go on forever?There are at least two reasons.

First, the revolt against God is more serious than we think it is. An insurrection against an infinitely worthy Creator is an infinitely heinous offense.

Why? How is that?

On the contrary, it would be GOD who was infinitely heinous. To torture someone eternally is infinitely cruel and infinitely unjust. It's blashemous to say GOD would do something we would expect SATAN to do, if he had the chance.

Second, and more important, is the nature of the punishment itself. The sinner in hell does not become morally neutral upon his sentence to hell. We must not imagine the damned displaying gospel repentance and longing for the presence of Christ. They do indeed, as in the story of the rich man and Lazarus, seek for an escape from punishment, but they are not new creations. They do not in hell love the Lord their God with heart, mind, soul, and strength.

So basically God doesn't judge them righteously and get rid of sin, he forces them to sin infinitely more.

Yes, hell is horrifying. God deems it so. Our response to such horror should not be denial, but the fervent evangelism of the nations. Knowing the terror of it all, we should plead with people, as though Christ himself were pleading through us, "Be reconciled to God" (2 Cor. 5:20).

The whole point of bein reconciled with God is to avoid the eternal torture which he has ordained for us, by default so to speak, even before we were born?

As C.S. Lewis writes, "In the long run the answer to all those who object to the doctrine of hell is itself a question: 'What are you asking God to do?' To wipe out their past sins and, at all costs, to give them a fresh start, smoothing every difficulty and offering every miraculous help?But he has done so, on Calvary.

No, according to the doctrine of eternal torture and extremely few people getting saved, he hasn't. The most common christian doctrine seems to be that God saves some people.

Until then, we preach, we plead, we beg, we warn. Hell is awful, and unending, and completely avoidable./QUOTE]For the fifteen year old hindu who has never heard the gospel as well?

 

[holo]

The Bible says just because they are dying doesn't mean they don't have life.

Where?

 

[holo]

again, how so? Just because God chooses torment for eternity, and age abiding life, how does that make Him less benevolent? Is He not the definition of benevolence? Is He not perfect? Is not His actions what we call the standard? Then how can you redefine benevolence to mean all accept true justice?

No, if he chooses to torture anybody at all forever and ever, then he is not perfect, much less benevolent.

 

[holo]

Annihilation would not be a punishment but a release from all punishment.

Compared to eternal torture, yes.

Jesus speaks of degrees of punishment (Matt. 5:22), but there can be no degrees of nonexistence.

Which pretty much goes against your argumentation - degrees of punishment would suggest that each individual punishment is FAIR.

Annihilation of the wicked is contrary to both the nature of God

How is that? Isn't his nature righteousness?

and the nature of humans made in his image

But the wicked are NOT given eternal life.

Were God to annihilate human beings he would be attacking himself, for we are made in his image

But torturing them endlessly wouldn't?

The fact that these persons are suffering no more justifies annihilating them

But God wouldn't annihilate them because they suffer, but because they have sinned - arguably after first giving them what they actually deserve.

The suggestion that temporal suffering will lead to ultimate repentance is unrealistic. People in hell are gnashing their teeth which does not indicate a more godly and reformed disposition but a more rigid and stubborn rebellion.

Um, no, I think gnashing of teeth would indicate suffering...

But if you're right, God first judges someone to eternal suffering and then forces them to stay alive and sin and sin and sin and sin. In other words, the soul that sins shal NOT die, Jesus' sacrifice did NOT outweigh the fall of Adam, Jesus shall NOT be "all in all" and every knee shall NOT bow to him, and basically, God's will is not done.

No sin would be unforgivable if people in hell were reformable

Do you know any children who've blashpemed the Holy Spirit?

Why Not Reform People? Why eternal punishment? Why doesn’t God try to reform sinners? The answer is that God does try to reform people; the time of reformation is called life.

Yes why not, indeed? God tries and tries, but alas, Adam screwedd it up and now God is unable to save anybody but a few.

God cannot force free creatures to be reformed. Forced reformation is worse than punishment; it is cruel and inhumane.

I'd take forced reformation over neverneding suffering any day.

At least punishment respects the freedom and dignity of the person.

Eternal hell respects the freedom and dignity of the person... did I read that right?

I could object to evry other sentence in this text, but it would be too long for anybody to bother reading.

 

[holo]

If people didn't believe in eternal torment to begin with, who in their right mind would come up with such a concept, that because God is infinite, sin must also be infinite, and the punishment as well?