Why an eternal hell?

[Timothew]

Jude 1:7 "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire"

2 Thess. 1:9 "And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power"

The Greek phrase "aionas ton aionon", which is translated "forever and ever," occurs 18 times in the Greek New Testament. In 17 of those times, the phrase means "without end", or "into infinity". This phrase is found in Matthew 25:46 describing both heaven and hell, which makes things pretty clear:
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life"

Not to mention, since God created the universe (spacetime), God is likely time-less and space-less. There is no time in heaven, nor is there time in hell. Heaven and hell don't last millions of years, they are outside of time. Hence, neither of them begin or end.

Read the verses you posted. Sodom and Gemorrah were destroyed. And they are the example of the punishment. So is it possible that the punishment is to be NOT destroyed, and consciously tormented forever? No, they were destroyed and they are the example of the punishment, so the punishment is destruction, not eternal torment.
2 Thess 1:9 repeats this and makes it clear, the punishment is eternal destruction, not eternal torment. So in Matthew 25:46, the eternal punishment is death, which by the way, is the opposite of eternal life.

 

[Timothew]

Eternal punishment being eternally separated from God.. forever and ever.

I hate to sound like a broken record but, is there any verse in the bible that actually says this? If there is, would you show it to me?

If you can't or won't show me the verse that says eternal punishment is being eternally separated from God, can we all agree that this is nonsense, and not try to peddle it?

 

[drow13f]

Its in the details. If heaven and earth both pass away with a loud noise and then a new heaven and earth come down after death and hell are cast into the lake of fire. Why would He create a new hell? There will be no more sin or curse or death, so there will be no more need for a hell. Jesus came and died so that who so ever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. If you don't have everlasting life then you are dead and death will be no more.

 

[Timothew]

Its in the details. If heaven and earth both pass away with a loud noise and then a new heaven and earth come down after death and hell are cast into the lake of fire. Why would He create a new hell? There will be no more sin or curse or death, so there will be no more need for a hell. Jesus came and died so that who so ever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. If you don't have everlasting life then you are dead and death will be no more.

I agree with that. If someone perishes, they are dead. They are not "separated from God".

 

[drow13f]

Well if you can show me that Jesus means that both believers and non-believers will have everlasting life then I will be able to agree with you. Rev 21:4 says there will be no more death. Sin is death and sin is what separates us from God. So if you don't believe in Him you will be responsible for covering your own sin so you will be separated from God. He also says at the day of judgment that He will say depart from me for I never knew you" so that is an example of separation from God.

 

[Timothew]

Well if you can show me that Jesus means that both believers and non-believers will have everlasting life then I will be able to agree with you. Rev 21:4 says there will be no more death. Sin is death and sin is what separates us from God. So if you don't believe in Him you will be responsible for covering your own sin so you will be separated from God. He also says at the day of judgment that He will say depart from me for I never knew you" so that is an example of separation from God.

Now I'm confused. I don't believe that unbelievers will have everlasting life. They will die the second death, because the wages of sin is death. But how did death morph into "separation from God"? I guess "depart from me" is a roundabout way of getting at "separation from God". But why not just call death "death"? Why pretty it up by calling it "separation"? That seems like something the eternal tormentalists like to do.

 

[GrizzlyMonKeH]

2 Thess 1:9 repeats this and makes it clear, the punishment is eternal destruction, not eternal torment. So in Matthew 25:46, the eternal punishment is death, which by the way, is the opposite of eternal life.

2 Thess 1:9 "And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power"

The word here rendered "destruction" is the Greek word "olethron". It occurs only here and in 1 Corinthians 5:5; 1 Thessalonians 5:3; 1 Timothy 6:9. It does not denote annihilation, but is used in the same sense in which we use the word when we say that a thing is destroyed.

Thus, health is destroyed when it fails; property is destroyed when it is burned or sunk in the ocean; a limb is destroyed that is lost in battle; life is destroyed when one dies. In the case before us, the destruction, whatever it be, is:

(1) to be continued forever

(2) to be of the nature of punishment.

But how did death morph into "separation from God"? I guess "depart from me" is a roundabout way of getting at "separation from God". But why not just call death "death"? Why pretty it up by calling it "separation"? That seems like something the eternal tormentalists like to do.

The Greek phrase in 2 Thes 1:9 "apo prosopou tou kyriou" literally means "separation from the presence of the Lord" in its description of Hell. This is the reason why Hell is so bad. God isn't there at all, there is nothing good.

 

[createdtoworship]

I don't believe hell is eternal. I do believe there is a hell but in Rev 20:14 death and hell are cast into the lake of fire. In Heb 12:29, Ex 24:17, Dt 4:24, Dt 9:3, the bible says that God is the all consuming fire. John 3:16 says that who so ever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life (the opposite of everlasting life is death) It's not that I totally disagree with the idea of an eternal place of torment, because I've always been taught that, I'm just not convinced that it's right. I believe God is a God of mercy and I believe that He will have mercy on the sinners after the second death. If He is going to wipe away our tears, and there will be no more death or curse (Rev 21:4) then I'm just not convinced that there will be an eternal place of torment. I think that we all deserve it, but I also know that God is merciful. I believe that its been taught as a scare tactic or out of ignorance to bring people to God.

When Jesus teaches the parable of Lazarus and the rich man I believe He is speaking of a real place that people go when they die. But in Revelations after the Millennial reign and the White throne judgment death and hell are cast into the lake of fire (which I believe is a reference to God where He will consume their spirit or something I don't fully understand those things) I think that the torment will be over after that. The place He is referring to is not eternal just like heaven and earth are not eternal.

Jesus said that Heaven and Earth would both pass away LK 21:33 but His word would not. In Revelations 21:1 there will be a new heaven and a new earth, so if this heaven and earth are not eternal why would hell be eternal. The rich man cried for Father Abraham to send Lazarus with drops of water on his fingers to quench his thirst. Hell is a spiritual place in a spiritual plane outside of the physical realm so he isn't speaking of physical thirst. He is a spirit and has a thirst for God that all of our spirits have. Jesus is the living water that can quench his thirst and save him from his torment, but he didn't know Jesus and he will thirst (be separated from God) until the end of time (the white throne judgment at the end of the millennial reign) separation from God is death and death and hell will cease to exist after the white throne judgment.

most transition to annihilationism when they hear that the word aion (eternal) means temporary, but this is a wives tail. Aion can been temporary and Eternal BOTH!

 

[drow13f]

Well I'm not going off of one word here. I'm am using several places in the bible that suggest that hell is not eternal, if you'll just check out my other posts.

 

[createdtoworship]

Well I'm not going off of one word here. I'm am using several places in the bible that suggest that hell is not eternal, if you'll just check out my other posts.

when I was learning about the debate, it was that one word that stumped me. The rest of the Bible can be double sided once you cross over to annihilation. I mean you can interpret passages wrongly once you are an annihilationist. But all this to say that the one word no longer stumps me. Because it can mean "the glory of God is eternal" for example and in no way is it only for an age.

 

[drow13f]

Ok, on second thought, its not important enough to me to debate, I just wanted to throw in my two cents. It doesn't apply to me anyway. I know where I'm going and I guess we'll see what happens to everyone when we get to judgement day. And I won't preach hellfire and brimstone because I think God's love is a more powerful tool for salvation. Bless you and thanks for the input.

 

[createdtoworship]

Ok, on second thought, its not important enough to me to debate, I just wanted to throw in my two cents. It doesn't apply to me anyway. I know where I'm going and I guess we'll see what happens to everyone when we get to judgement day. And I won't preach hellfire and brimstone because I think God's love is a more powerful tool for salvation. Bless you and thanks for the input.

When God killed 180,000 assyrians was he loving then, or how about when he flooded the earth? Or when hail stones are going to crack the skulls of humans in the end days (150lb)? You must have a larger view of God. He does things in a just way that appears cruel and unusual but are in fact very in tune with God's love.

 

[drow13f]

Yeah, I would say that our views are different, because I think that those things will happen because they are separated from God. God is in control of every little thing and when He removes His protection and lets people have what they want, then bad things happen.

In the old testament there was no path to salvation. Israel had a covenant for a blessed life (not an eternal one) God gave them a law to follow and as long as they followed His ways they would be blessed and He would multiply them. The only way to have a blessed life was to stay pure and blood sacrifices. That was to keep the people as a whole pure. The new covenant isn't about keeping a whole society pure so we don't have to stone adulterers or witches. Our covenant with Jesus is a personal one and it is for every single person. Every sinner on this earth is at war with God so I totally believe He would be Just to punish them all for eternity because we all deserve it. His peace offering is Jesus and those who reject Him are at war with Him. Jesus is the one who says love thy enemies. If you want to condemn someone to an eternity of torment then go ahead, but I'm not convinced that God will do that anymore, I used to be, but after knowing Gods love and His mercy and grace and seeing all of the scripture that suggest otherwise, I can't say that 100% anymore. I've thought about it a lot over a long period of time and I'm sure you have too and we have just come to different conclusions.

I have no problem with you believing what you do because it doesn't effect your salvation one bit so I'm not going to discuss it anymore. But I've heard your argument and it doesn't convince me so we should agree to disagree. I hope you have a great night and God bless you

 

[Timothew]

most transition to annihilationism when they hear that the word aion (eternal) means temporary, but this is a wives tail. Aion can been temporary and Eternal BOTH!

Nobody says that aion means temporary. This is a strawman argument. Aion actually means "an age", we get the world "eon" from the greek word "aion". My view is that the future aion when we are resurrected to life does last forever. This is also the aion when those who have perished remain dead forever.

 

[createdtoworship]

Nobody says that aion means temporary. This is a strawman argument. Aion actually means "an age", we get the world "eon" from the greek word "aion". My view is that the future aion when we are resurrected to life does last forever. This is also the aion when those who have perished remain dead forever.

you are the first person in this forum that is an annihilationist that says aion means eternal. How is it a strawman. Find one other that agrees and we will have a consensus.

 

[createdtoworship]

In the old testament there was no path to salvation.

I don't have a problem with your views either, believe what you will.


but I had a question....

no one in the OT was saved huh?

 

[dies-l]

you are the first person in this forum that is an annihilationist that says aion means eternal. How is it a strawman. Find one other that agrees and we will have a consensus.

My views do not hinge on whether aion means "eternal" or "age". They are based on the most common sense understanding of the words death and destruction, which do not imply in any way, shape, or form eternal torment.

 

[Timothew]

My views do not hinge on whether aion means "eternal" or "age". They are based on the most common sense understanding of the words death and destruction, which do not imply in any way, shape, or form eternal torment.

I agree, we have a consensus. Not that we really need one. The bible says it and we agree with what it says.

 

[GrizzlyMonKeH]

My views do not hinge on whether aion means "eternal" or "age". They are based on the most common sense understanding of the words death and destruction, which do not imply in any way, shape, or form eternal torment.

Look at the ancient Greek. It's all there. I'm going to post this one more time, and then I am finished.

In Matthew 25:46, Jesus Christ describes both heaven and hell as being eternal. He uses the same phrase for both. In the original Greek, this phrase is "aionas ton aionon". It literally means extending into infinity, forever and ever. If you have a problem with this phrase meaning eternal, then you must also accept that God has not existed forever, for the very same phrase is used to describe Him.

To disagree with me, you would have to admit that either Jesus was lying, or that God is not eternal. Either way, if you're correct, then Christianity is bogus and I need to find a new belief system.

 

[dies-l]

Look at the ancient Greek. It's all there. I'm going to post this one more time, and then I am finished.

In Matthew 25:46, Jesus Christ describes both heaven and hell as being eternal. He uses the same phrase for both. In the original Greek, this phrase is "aionas ton aionon". It literally means extending into infinity, forever and ever. If you have a problem with this phrase meaning eternal, then you must also accept that God has not existed forever, for the very same phrase is used to describe Him.

To disagree with me, you would have to admit that either Jesus was lying, or that God is not eternal. Either way, if you're correct, then Christianity is bogus and I need to find a new belief system.

A third possibility is that you are either radically misinterpreting Scripture or misunderstanding the argument. The latter seems most likely.