Why an eternal hell?

[Timothew]

so why do we hold the exact same truths as those prior to 300 A.D.?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7648154-52/#post60526941

I'm sorry, gradyll. You don't.

 

[createdtoworship]

I'm sorry, gradyll. You don't.

regarding hell yes,

 

[Timothew]

regarding hell yes,

No, the message of the apostolic church as recorded in the new testament is not eternal torment in hell.

 

[Kormagh]

You never reconcile opposing beliefs.

Sent from my dumb smart phone using CF

 

[createdtoworship]

No, the message of the apostolic church as recorded in the new testament is not eternal torment in hell.

did you not check out my post proving the apostolic church believed in eternal hell? In fact I think you gave me reputation and said you would look into it further.....guess that never happened. lol

http://www.christianforums.com/t7648154-53/#post60526941

 

[Timothew]

did you not check out my post proving the apostolic church believed in eternal hell? In fact I think you gave me reputation and said you would look into it further.....guess that never happened. lol

http://www.christianforums.com/t7648154-53/#post60526941

The fact is that Paul said what the wages of sin is, and it is not eternal torment in hell or eternal separation from God or anything else other than death. I know that you don't want to believe me, but that is exactly what Romans 6:23 says. Even if the whole church and everyone else in the world believed that the wages of sin is eternal torment in hell, that wouldn't make Romans 6:23 read "The wages of sin is eternal torment in hell".

Believe what you wish. I'll believe the bible, instead of the traditional view of eternal tormentalism. You will never convince me to believe the traditional lie. I don't even know why you would want me to believe something other than what the bible teaches.

 

[Timothew]

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned...death reigned from Adam until Moses.

For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

As sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death.

But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

(Paul, proving that sin results in death, not eternal torment. Passages from Romans 5 and 6, NASB)​

 

[GrizzlyMonKeH]

On this issue, I take the side of respected apologist Dr William Lane Craig. Imagine a man gets sentenced to 30 years in prison for murder. Once he gets there, he continues his violent behavior and kills another inmate. More years are tacked onto his sentence. This process continues until the murderer dies.

Our earthly sins deserve only finite punishment. However, once nonbelievers get into Hell (the absence of God), they continue to sin, further pushing back their sentence for eternity.

 

[Timothew]

On this issue, I take the side of respected apologist Dr William Lane Craig. Imagine a man gets sentenced to 30 years in prison for murder. Once he gets there, he continues his violent behavior and kills another inmate. More years are tacked onto his sentence. This process continues until the murderer dies.

Our earthly sins deserve only finite punishment. However, once nonbelievers get into Hell (the absence of God), they continue to sin, further pushing back their sentence for eternity.

You think that people can continue to sin after they are dead?
Where does the bible say this? Didn't you notice my last post, where I backed up everything I believe with the scripture proving it? You can read Romans 5 and 6 yourself to confirm this.

According to the bible, "anyone who has died has been freed from sin." Romans 6:7 NIV

 

[GrizzlyMonKeH]

You think that people can continue to sin after they are dead?
Where does the bible say this? Didn't you notice my last post, where I backed up everything I believe with the scripture proving it? You can read Romans 5 and 6 yourself to confirm this.

According to the bible, "anyone who has died has been freed from sin." Romans 6:7 NIV

You are taking that verse completely out of context. That verse is only speaking of believers. "For we know that our old self was crucified with Him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away, that we should no longer be slaves to sin - because anyone who has died has been set free from sin." Romans 6:6-7 NIV

It's talking about a death and resurrection in Christ. Paul is speaking to new believers, people who have trusted in Christ as their savior and have been justified.

Paul confirms this in Romans 6:22-23 "But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" *One of my favorite verses in the entire Bible, btw

 

[ByGraceOnly]

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned...death reigned from Adam until Moses.​

For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.​

As sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.​

Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?​

For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death.​

But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.​

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. ​

(Paul, proving that sin results in death, not eternal torment. Passages from Romans 5 and 6, NASB)​

Sometimes in view is only physical death in the Bible, which you take to mean eternal non-conscious death. But even all believers will die (ok, most will, some exceptions), and then inherit eternal life. So your own view paints you into a corner. If death is as you say, death means non-existence, and the wages of sin is death, how can believers attain eternal life in heaven after they die? Because the death that you cite is only physical death, not death/non-existence of the soul. It's inconsistent that some humans will live forever and some will be vanquished.

 

[GrizzlyMonKeH]

Jude 1:7 "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire"

2 Thess. 1:9 "And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power"

The Greek phrase "aionas ton aionon", which is translated "forever and ever," occurs 18 times in the Greek New Testament. In 17 of those times, the phrase means "without end", or "into infinity". This phrase is found in Matthew 25:46 describing both heaven and hell, which makes things pretty clear:
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life"

Not to mention, since God created the universe (spacetime), God is likely time-less and space-less. There is no time in heaven, nor is there time in hell. Heaven and hell don't last millions of years, they are outside of time. Hence, neither of them begin or end.

 

[createdtoworship]

On this issue, I take the side of respected apologist Dr William Lane Craig. Imagine a man gets sentenced to 30 years in prison for murder. Once he gets there, he continues his violent behavior and kills another inmate. More years are tacked onto his sentence. This process continues until the murderer dies.

Our earthly sins deserve only finite punishment. However, once nonbelievers get into Hell (the absence of God), they continue to sin, further pushing back their sentence for eternity.

very interesting illustration

 

[drow13f]

1

 

[drow13f]

I don't believe hell is eternal. I do believe there is a hell but in Rev 20:14 death and hell are cast into the lake of fire. In Heb 12:29, Ex 24:17, Dt 4:24, Dt 9:3, the bible says that God is the all consuming fire. John 3:16 says that who so ever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life (the opposite of everlasting life is death) It's not that I totally disagree with the idea of an eternal place of torment, because I've always been taught that, I'm just not convinced that it's right. I believe God is a God of mercy and I believe that He will have mercy on the sinners after the second death. If He is going to wipe away our tears, and there will be no more death or curse (Rev 21:4) then I'm just not convinced that there will be an eternal place of torment. I think that we all deserve it, but I also know that God is merciful. I believe that its been taught as a scare tactic or out of ignorance to bring people to God.

When Jesus teaches the parable of Lazarus and the rich man I believe He is speaking of a real place that people go when they die. But in Revelations after the Millennial reign and the White throne judgment death and hell are cast into the lake of fire (which I believe is a reference to God where He will consume their spirit or something I don't fully understand those things) I think that the torment will be over after that. The place He is referring to is not eternal just like heaven and earth are not eternal.

Jesus said that Heaven and Earth would both pass away LK 21:33 but His word would not. In Revelations 21:1 there will be a new heaven and a new earth, so if this heaven and earth are not eternal why would hell be eternal. The rich man cried for Father Abraham to send Lazarus with drops of water on his fingers to quench his thirst. Hell is a spiritual place in a spiritual plane outside of the physical realm so he isn't speaking of physical thirst. He is a spirit and has a thirst for God that all of our spirits have. Jesus is the living water that can quench his thirst and save him from his torment, but he didn't know Jesus and he will thirst (be separated from God) until the end of time (the white throne judgment at the end of the millennial reign) separation from God is death and death and hell will cease to exist after the white throne judgment.

 

[GrizzlyMonKeH]

The Greek phrase "aionas ton aionon", which is translated "forever and ever," occurs 18 times in the Greek New Testament. In 17 of those times, the phrase means "without end", or "into infinity". This phrase is found in Matthew 25:46 describing both heaven and hell, which makes things pretty clear:
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life"

Jesus himself told us that heaven and hell are eternal. I don't see any way to reconcile this with the belief that hell is temporary.

 

[drow13f]

Eternal punishment being eternally separated from God.. forever and ever.

 

[Timothew]

Sometimes in view is only physical death in the Bible, which you take to mean eternal non-conscious death. But even all believers will die (ok, most will, some exceptions), and then inherit eternal life. So your own view paints you into a corner. If death is as you say, death means non-existence, and the wages of sin is death, how can believers attain eternal life in heaven after they die? Because the death that you cite is only physical death, not death/non-existence of the soul. It's inconsistent that some humans will live forever and some will be vanquished.

Dude, have you never heard of the resurrection? If not, let me be the first to share this good news with you. Jesus will return and call the dead out of their graves, and give them eternal life. All who have repented of their sins and trust in Jesus Christ will be given eternal life. Pretty cool, huh?

 

[Timothew]

You are taking that verse completely out of context. That verse is only speaking of believers. "For we know that our old self was crucified with Him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away, that we should no longer be slaves to sin - because anyone who has died has been set free from sin." Romans 6:6-7 NIV

It's talking about a death and resurrection in Christ. Paul is speaking to new believers, people who have trusted in Christ as their savior and have been justified.

Paul confirms this in Romans 6:22-23 "But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" *One of my favorite verses in the entire Bible, btw

Well then, tell me the verse that says that dead people are able to sin. I've never seen a corpse rob a bank, but I usually don't go into big cities. Except in horror movies, I've never seen a corpse kill a man. I've never seen a corpse commit adultery, have you? But if you were to show me a verse from the bible that states that the dead are able to sin, I would definitely believe you.

 

[drow13f]

[\quote] There is no time in heaven, nor is there time in hell. Heaven and hell don't last millions of years, they are outside of time. Hence, neither of them begin or end.[/quote]

I'm not sure if hell has always existed. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth and all that in them is. But why would He create hell before sin. Hell does exist inside the realm of heaven and earth right?