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If punishment in hell was eternal then that would make god a monster. I cannot equate that doctrine with the God i know. If eternal torment did exist then what kind of God would bring a sentient being into existence with the foreknowledge that they would end up burning forever?since people sin against an INFINITELY worthy and holy and good God, the punishment one must receive would be that of equal value, which would be an infinite punishment. Even with your earthly thinking, your logic must end up concluding the existence of an eternal hell regardless. How much more would we have to conclude an eternal hell if we realize His ways are not our ways?
if grace abounded much more everyone would be saved including the wicked. Grace doesn't about that much. We are still commanded to repent over a hundred times in the Bible. Grace abounds only for those of faith. Even still we are commanded to repent.
Not sure what you're saying, but we must connect the verses of Romans 5. The chapter explains because of the sins of one man, Adam, all men were thrown into sin and death was the penalty. Simply Adam's sin condemned us all to death { and eternal torture, although that's not mentioned}
Then it explains that even as Adam plunged us all to death {and eternal torture} that in Christ all are made alive. Simply, what Adam did, Christ corrected with life. However, it seems that since most will go to eternal torture, Christ didn't correct what Adam did. If Adam sent us all to hell and Christ can only save a few, how can grace abound more than the sin of Adam? You say grace didn't abound that much, well, if most of mankind is in hell, I would agree with you.
Now one can say grace abounded more, we just don't accept it, but that still doesn't solve the problem that Adam's sin condemned more that Christ could save.
Course the bible says Adam sentenced us to death, so to pay for our sins Christ had to die. If the sentence for our sins is eternal torture, then for Christ to make equal payment, he would have to be eternally tortured.
Your statement that grace abounds more for only people of faith makes no sense at all regarding what is being taught in this chapter.
If punishment in hell was eternal then that would make god a monster. I cannot equate that doctrine with the God i know. If eternal torment did exist then what kind of God would bring a sentient being into existence with the foreknowledge that they would end up burning forever?
I agree that hell exists in some form and that the unregenerate go there for judgement and punishment. Put that punishment is for a finite period after which comes oblivion.
If punishment in hell was eternal then that would make god a monster. I cannot equate that doctrine with the God i know. If eternal torment did exist then what kind of God would bring a sentient being into existence with the foreknowledge that they would end up burning forever?
I agree that hell exists in some form and that the unregenerate go there for judgement and punishment. Put that punishment is for a finite period after which comes oblivion.
I guess drowning an entire race of individuals in a global flood is out of the question too? Or death by fire in the end of the world?
In case you didn't see my post of a blog by the same name:J0hnSm1th said:If punishment in hell was eternal then that would make god a monster. I cannot equate that doctrine with the God i know. If eternal torment did exist then what kind of God would bring a sentient being into existence with the foreknowledge that they would end up burning forever?
I agree that hell exists in some form and that the unregenerate go there for judgement and punishment. Put that punishment is for a finite period after which comes oblivion.
Metal Minister said:An excerpt from a blog entitled "Is God A Monster".
Nearly fifty years ago, the British agnostic Bertrand Russell penned these words: "There is one very serious defect to my mind in Christ's moral character, and that is that He believed in hell. I do not myself feel that any person who is really profoundly humane can believe in everlasting punishment" (Bertrand Russell, Why I Am Not a Christian).
Philosopher John Hick echoed those sentiments when he called hell "a perversion of the Christian gospel." He believed the doctrine of hell attributed to God "an unappeasable vindictiveness and insatiable cruelty."
We expect statements like that from fallen, unregenerate minds. But what do we do when we hear similar things from prominent, professing evangelical writers? "How can Christians possibly project a deity of such cruelty and vindictiveness whose ways include inflicting everlasting torture upon his creatures, however sinful they may have been? Surely a God who would do such a thing is more nearly like Satan than like God..." (Clark H. Pinnock, "The Destruction of the Finally Impenitent").
It's become popular today for professing evangelicals to join the ranks of Pinnock, atheists, and agnostics in protesting the doctrine of hell. They are preaching sermons, writing articles, and publishing books, and some are wandering into the comment threads of Christian blogs. Here's a small sampling from Grace To You's blog in our recent series on hell:
"What kind of God torments people for all eternity?" "...Satan loves the false doctrine of eternal torment" "[eternal torment is] cruel and unusual punishment" "[eternal torment] makes God out to be a cruel tyrant," "absolutely cruel and malevolent" "How can you in your right minds even consider this to be justice?"
If the doctrine of hell as eternal, conscious torment hadn't been the position of the Christian church for two millennia, it might be easy to think we're seriously out of step--a bunch of mindless minions who worship a monster-god! But when you examine the biblical evidence, without an agenda, you'll find we sound a lot like Jesus and the apostles.
So, how could someone who claims to be faithful to Scripture ridicule the idea of eternal punishment? What is at the heart of their rejection of a never-ending hell? It's simple, really--they minimize the seriousness of human sin and guilt, and they distort the perfection of divine justice. That's the crime of Protestant Liberalism and every false religion.
Minimizing the Sinfulness of Sin
To one degree or another, we're all guilty of minimizing sin. I remember the first time I read the account of Lot's wife. God turned her into a pillar of salt as she was leaving Sodom. Her crime? A backward glance (Gen. 19:26). Reading that story as an unbeliever provoked me to ask the question: "Was that really an offense worthy of death--turning your neck to take one final look at your home?" As I explored more of the Bible, other accounts of God's judgment appeared equally capricious and severe to me.
Nadab and Abihu deviated from the priestly procedures. God consumed them with fire (Lev. 10:1-2). One man gathered wood on the Sabbath. God commanded Moses to stone him (Num. 15:35). Achan took a few forbidden items from the spoils of Jericho. God commanded Joshua to stone and then burn Achan along with his entire family (Josh. 7:24-25). Uzzah kept the ark of God from falling into the mud by reaching out his hand and taking hold of it. God immediately struck him dead (2 Sam. 6:6-7). Ananias and Sapphira lied to the apostles. God killed them both in front of the entire church. (Acts 5:1-10).
We often struggle to understand how something seemingly so trivial could enact such a severe judgment. Our flesh wants to cry out in protest, "That's not fair!" But responses like that reveal our failure to grasp the depth of sin. We see only actions--a devoted father gathering firewood to keep his family warm; a zealous Israelite anxious to keep the Ark of God off the ground--but God sees things differently, more clearly, than we do. He sees our sin as insurrection, rebellion against His holiness (Ex. 31:14; Num. 4:15). What's more, He sees the hidden motives and intentions at the core of our actions (Mt. 5:28; Heb. 4:12).
One of the most basic tenets of justice is that the punishment must fit the crime. So, if the ultimate punishment for those who die without Christ is hell, then what is the crime? What do men do to merit the eternal sentence of hell? Put plainly, they sin.
You can read the rest here:
http://www.gty.org/blog/B110518
May God Richly Bless you!
The two are not equivalent.
If they were, wouldn't you consider Annihilation an equally valid view?
annihilation isn't death by suffocation, or death by third degree burning. Annihilation can be preceeded by heart attack, stroke or any one of relatively minor diseases that may or may not have any suffering/pain at all. Drowning is a tactic used in torture (waterboarding).
So we may say that the torture of hell is equivelent to the torture of drowning, or the torture of burning with fire (iin the end days fire will reign from heaven)
if you do away with one, you have to reanalyze all of scripture.
Oops! Then I'd need to call you a bloke in my Aussie slang lingo.
However, immigrants who come to Australia sure find some of our slang difficult to get to know and use. However, it's part of our culture.
What are the slang terms unique to NZ?
Oz
So torture for a few minutes is the same as torture for a week? Or a year? Or an eternity?
So we may say that the torture of hell is equivelent to the torture of drowning, or the torture of burning with fire (iin the end days fire will reign from heaven)
It's worse than that. At least there's some hope when you're being "tortured" while you're alive.
Where was there hope for those whom God drowned? While they were drowning? After?It's worse than that. At least there's some hope when you're being "tortured" while you're alive.
Where was there hope for those whom God drowned? While they were drowning? After?
And still God is taking away all hope for the lost. After all, He could have saved everyone if He chose to. He didn't.While you're alive, there's still hope. When you're in hell, there's no hope.
And still God is taking away all hope for the lost.
After all, He could have saved everyone if He chose to. He didn't.
1 Samuel 2:6 (NASB)God doesn't take away their hope, they simply have none. If you have no hope in God now what makes you think you'll develop some after you die?
God didn't create everyone exactly as He chose to do?No he couldn't. That would require forcing you to accept Him, which would make you little more than a robot.
still torture, I mean what kind of person tortures for weeks, can also torture for eternity. It is the same personality type. So I guess you have to throw the whole Bible out.
1 Samuel 2:6 (NASB)
6 "The LORD kills and makes alive;
God didn't create everyone exactly as He chose to do?
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