Why am I a sinner?

[hordeprime]

I am a virgin. I do not take drugs or drink alcohol. I do not engage in violence either physical or emotional. I frequently give of myself to those who are less fortunate & who can benefit from my help. I believing in treating others as I would have them treat me, and I do not believe in revenge.

What then is the Christian foundation for claiming all people, myself included are sinners who need salvation?

If it is an inherent property to existing, if it is the belief that we are born sinners, what sense does it make to say that people must repent for being born? No one asks to be born. That is entrapment.

If it is the belief that all people, even myself, have willingly done something bad, a dirty thought, an outburst of anger, how can such trivialities be basis for God's eternal judgment?

If the belief in God is based upon searching for God, within my heart & without, and I have done these things and not felt God, where then do I, the non-Christian, turn to understand the Christian perspective?

If the belief in God is based upon rational inquiry, and I have engaged in this, and still not found reason to believe in God, same question.

And if, as I have heard, God does not judge us by our actions but by some intangible quality (faith) alone, what incentive then do Christians have to act in any way, including evangelizing?

Does that mean that a murderer & rapist who confesses himself a Christian will be forgiven for those crimes, while I, a non-murderer & non-rapist, will be shunned by God solely for not being Christian?

And is this not simply a way of saying Christians can do whatever they want?

I understand fully that this is not a forum of debate so I will try not to post again in this thread. I will gladly read any and all responses. Thanks!

 

[sawdust]

Being a sinner has nothing to do with being "good or bad". It's about not knowing God. Look at it this way. Imagine you are watching a wrestling match and one of the wrestlers is obviously "bigger & tougher" than the other. You automatically recognise his strength so you know something "about" him but that doesn't mean you know him. You would need to be introduced and spend time with him, getting to understand who he is as a person. It is the same with God. We live in a world which He created and continues to sustain so there are things we can recognise about God (especially when we look at human relations) but that doesn't mean we know him.
God loves us and love demands relationship. You can't love from afar, it doesn't work. He doesn't want you to measure that love based on your goodness or the evil of others. He simply wants you to recognise the fact that He loves you, turn around and embrace Him.

"There is no greater love than this, than a man lay down his life for his friends." John 1513

Jesus wants to call you "friend", will you let Him?

take care

 

[Marth]

I am a virgin. I do not take drugs or drink alcohol. I do not engage in violence either physical or emotional. I frequently give of myself to those who are less fortunate & who can benefit from my help. I believing in treating others as I would have them treat me, and I do not believe in revenge.

What then is the Christian foundation for claiming all people, myself included are sinners who need salvation?

If it is an inherent property to existing, if it is the belief that we are born sinners, what sense does it make to say that people must repent for being born? No one asks to be born. That is entrapment.

God doesnt ask us to repent for being born. When it says we're born sinners it means that we will sin at some point in our lives so i think that should be "destined to be sinners" not born sinners

If it is the belief that all people, even myself, have willingly done something bad, a dirty thought, an outburst of anger, how can such trivialities be basis for God's eternal judgment?

if you repent for those things truly and dont try to do them/ not as much then they WONT matter.

If the belief in God is based upon searching for God, within my heart & without, and I have done these things and not felt God, where then do I, the non-Christian, turn to understand the Christian perspective?

If the belief in God is based upon rational inquiry, and I have engaged in this, and still not found reason to believe in God, same question.

And if, as I have heard, God does not judge us by our actions but by some intangible quality (faith) alone, what incentive then do Christians have to act in any way, including evangelizing?

Does that mean that a murderer & rapist who confesses himself a Christian will be forgiven for those crimes, while I, a non-murderer & non-rapist, will be shunned by God solely for not being Christian?

it says somewhere in the bible (not sure where and im tight on time) taht someone who uses God's word to sin as an excuse is shunned more than enough. Anyone who does this is not a true christian. If you do it once though and you truly feel sorry for it and repent with all ur heart and u WILL be forgiven. BUT if you continually rape/murder and just over and over pray for forgiveness then are you truly repenting for what you have done?

And is this not simply a way of saying Christians can do whatever they want?

simple answer: NO

 

[iac]

Hordeprime, believe it or not, you're a liar, a thief, a rebel, and much more. It doesn't matter how "small" your sin is, it's all the same to God. If you've sinned then you've chosen not to go along with God and to ignore His commandments. God could not be a righteous God and at the same time ignore your sin, no matter how "small" it may be. Even if you've only sinned once in your life, you are worthy of eternal damnation. Also, if you break one commandment then you've broken them all...

 

[seebs]

If I'm a mountain climber, and I'm as good a mountain climber as I can possibly be, and I fall off the mountain, the fall will harm me whether I was willfully shoddy or only human.

 

[MinDach]

What then is the Christian foundation for claiming all people, myself included are sinners who need salvation?

So are you saying you have never told one lie? In your whole life you have never done one thing wrong? If you have broken only one law, you have broken them all, these are Jesus words. People are ( born ) into sin. Adam and Eve had sinned, we are the children from them, so all have sinned.

If the belief in God is based upon searching for God, within my heart & without, and I have done these things and not felt God, where then do I, the non-Christian, turn to understand the Christian perspective?

You find him at the cross, you will find him with faith, no man can please him without faith.

Does that mean that a murderer & rapist who confesses himself a Christian will be forgiven for those crimes, while I, a non-murderer & non-rapist, will be shunned by God solely for not being Christian?

YES to your question. If you shun What Gods Son did on the Cross for you and me, you will not make it in to heaven.


Story of the Great Feast
Jesus told them several other stories to illustrate the Kingdom. He said, 2 "The Kingdom of Heaven can be illustrated by the story of a king who prepared a great wedding feast for his son. 3 Many guests were invited, and when the banquet was ready, he sent his servants to notify everyone that it was time to come. But they all refused! 4 So he sent other servants to tell them, `The feast has been prepared, and choice meats have been cooked. Everything is ready. Hurry!' 5 But the guests he had invited ignored them and went about their business, one to his farm, another to his store. 6 Others seized his messengers and treated them shamefully, even killing some of them.
7 "Then the king became furious. He sent out his army to destroy the murderers and burn their city. 8 And he said to his servants, `The wedding feast is ready, and the guests I invited aren't worthy of the honor. 9 Now go out to the street corners and invite everyone you see.'
10 "So the servants brought in everyone they could find, good and bad alike, and the banquet hall was filled with guests. 11 But when the king came in to meet the guests, he noticed a man who wasn't wearing the proper clothes for a wedding. 12 `Friend,' he asked, `how is it that you are here without wedding clothes?' And the man had no reply. 13 Then the king said to his aides, `Bind him hand and foot and throw him out into the outer darkness, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14 For many are called, but few are chosen."

 

[pcwilkins]

Because we are all 'born in Sin' and 'shapen in iniquity'. Whether you do the things you mention or not, you are just as bad as those who do them all, and you need just as much mercy.

PCW

 

[Rafael]

Sometimes it takes a while to realize we don't love God and we don't love our neighbors as we love ourselves. If life is smooth without any tests on our character, then we may not feel a need for a Savior to save our lives from sin and death right away. Understanding what sin and death has done to ourselves and the world sometimes takes a lifetime to know, but others seem to know the need right away and recognize it in their own lives the first time conviction comes to them. It took me a long time to realize what I was doing in this life. I too, thought it was all good, but I don't think that way anymore. Without God, I did just about everything for myself.

 

[Svt4Him]

I am a virgin. I do not take drugs or drink alcohol. I do not engage in violence either physical or emotional. I frequently give of myself to those who are less fortunate & who can benefit from my help. I believing in treating others as I would have them treat me, and I do not believe in revenge.

What then is the Christian foundation for claiming all people, myself included are sinners who need salvation?

If it is an inherent property to existing, if it is the belief that we are born sinners, what sense does it make to say that people must repent for being born? No one asks to be born. That is entrapment.

If it is the belief that all people, even myself, have willingly done something bad, a dirty thought, an outburst of anger, how can such trivialities be basis for God's eternal judgment?

If the belief in God is based upon searching for God, within my heart & without, and I have done these things and not felt God, where then do I, the non-Christian, turn to understand the Christian perspective?

If the belief in God is based upon rational inquiry, and I have engaged in this, and still not found reason to believe in God, same question.

And if, as I have heard, God does not judge us by our actions but by some intangible quality (faith) alone, what incentive then do Christians have to act in any way, including evangelizing?

Does that mean that a murderer & rapist who confesses himself a Christian will be forgiven for those crimes, while I, a non-murderer & non-rapist, will be shunned by God solely for not being Christian?

And is this not simply a way of saying Christians can do whatever they want?

I understand fully that this is not a forum of debate so I will try not to post again in this thread. I will gladly read any and all responses. Thanks!

Have you ever lied?

Have you ever taken something that wasn't yours, no matter how small?

As for being born in sin, I do not believe this, and find that one verse is often misquoted to show that we are born in sin, and it's when David talked about his mother.

As for God's judgment, they are based on our actions, which are a reflection of our heart. This is the best way I can describe it. Two men are going to rob a bank (greed) and are walking across the street to do it when one falls and gets run over. Is he as guilty as the man who actually still went and robbed the bank? Yes, because the sin in their hearts were the same. So to say God doesn't look at actions is a bit simplistic.

And no, it has nothing to do with calling yourself a Christian.

 

[klewlis]

Instead of comparing yourself to other people--"I don't this or that"--compare yourself to God. Think about someone who is absolutely perfect and holy, without a single trace of anything sinful or dark. Then think about yourself, and you will understand why God cannot live with us, without first getting rid of our sin.

We *are* born sinful. There is not a single person in this world who is not full of selfishness, greed, and envy. As soon as a baby learns to talk, he learns how to tell lies and throw fits. This is regardless of whether he has the best or worst parents in the world. It is human nature. Even if you live what you consider to be a relatively good life, all it takes is one adverse situation to bring out the worst in you. I am continually amazed at my own capacity to sin--to be selfish, think evil of others, etc.

We ALL need a saviour. We all need mercy from God. And he gives it freely to anyone who wants it--from hardened murderers to sweet little children. This is because his love and grace go far beyond our own--we have a hard time forgiving certain things, but God is willing to forgive all. The only thing he asks of us is faith and obedience.

 

[Rafael]

Even the things we speak to others are life and death and are held accountable to God. Like the old song "home on the range", it's hard to find a place or a person that has no discouraging words. Everybody needs a Savior from sin and death whether they realize it or not. It takes different things for different folks to realize their need.

 

[chilehed]

These are excellent questions, unfortunately answers that are condensed enough for this format will probably leave you with more questions. You’ve covered enough material to provide for several thousand Doctoral theses just to cover the background.

Sin can be divided into several categories, but two of them are "original" sin and "personal" sin. Original sin is not the result of anything we do ourselves, it is a state of existence "transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed"—a state and not an act." (CCC p.404). It is a state from which we all need deliverence , i.e., salvation.

Personal sins are those which we are personally responsible for, and the common root of them all is a preference for our own will over God's. These are the ones that we must individually repent of. And while I have no doubt that you are a good guy, I don't think you'd claim that you've never done anything that had the slightest taint of self-will.

How can this possibly be worth eternal suffering? That's another conversation and fodder for several thousand more PhD's, but the short answer is that we choose to spend eternity with God (which is what we were created for) or not (which isn't). We alone among creation are “capable of self-knowledge, of self-possesion and of freely giving ourselves to and entering into communion with other persons. And (we are) called by grace to a covenant with his Creator, to offer him a response of faith and love that no other creature can give in his stead” (CCC 357). And since love is an act of the will, this requires that are able to refuse communion with God as well. It is how we are made.

We are persons, that is, we are not just something, we are someone, and with this we have dignity that is inherent to us merely because we exist; we alone of all the animals have this gift. This dignity arises inescapably from our nature, the nature that God gave us and that is a reflection of His own nature. And since God’s nature is to not do anything against His own nature, He will not violate our free will by forcing us to not sin.

To complain that this is unfair because we didn’t ask to be born is a rather poorly developed argument. It’s the kind of thing I said to my parents when I was 12 years old, and I wouldn’t expect God to buy it any more than my parents did, or that I will when my kids hit adolescence. Just as God’s nature is to bring forth life, it is our nature to bond, male and female, in such intimate union that we participate in the creation of life.

Yes, belief in God is best based on rational inquiry, and I find it supremely rational to believe in God. I love explaining why, but that’d be a bit off topic. Feel free to PM me if you like, or else you can lurk some of my past posts and figure out where I’m coming from. Better yet, lurk JeffreyLloyd’s stuff, he’s vastly more qualified than I am.

The idea that God does not judge us by our actions is a Protestant view, one which I used to hold to but which I now reject because I find it to be very unbiblical (I’m a Catholic now, or at least I will be after this year’s Easter vigil). No, Christians cannot do whatever they want if what they want violates the will of God.

The Church teaches that everyone needs to accept Jesus as Lord, and that to reject Him is to reject God – this is the norm.

“Outside the Church there is no salvation. How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

• Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

• This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation”(CCC 847)

Here are links to the Catechism of the Catholic Church. They may be helpful.
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt1art1p7.htm
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt3art9p3.htm

 

[Krystina661]

Instead of comparing yourself to other people--"I don't this or that"--compare yourself to God.

That makes for a good quote.

 

[Krystina661]

...

 

[wonderbread7]

I understand what you are saying. A lot of the people that i know who are not saved have problem understanding the definition of sin. Sin is being human. It's inherently within us. Everyone has lied or taken something from someone else or cursed or used God's name in vain. It makes us unclean and unable to be in God's presence when we go to heaven. We used to have to repent for these sins so that we would be clean again but Jesus did this for us. Sin doesn't make us bad it makes us dead.

 

[ilovethelord]

Instead of comparing yourself to other people--"I don't this or that"--compare yourself to God. Think about someone who is absolutely perfect and holy, without a single trace of anything sinful or dark. Then think about yourself, and you will understand why God cannot live with us, without first getting rid of our sin.

We *are* born sinful. There is not a single person in this world who is not full of selfishness, greed, and envy. As soon as a baby learns to talk, he learns how to tell lies and throw fits. This is regardless of whether he has the best or worst parents in the world. It is human nature. Even if you live what you consider to be a relatively good life, all it takes is one adverse situation to bring out the worst in you. I am continually amazed at my own capacity to sin--to be selfish, think evil of others, etc.

We ALL need a saviour. We all need mercy from God. And he gives it freely to anyone who wants it--from hardened murderers to sweet little children. This is because his love and grace go far beyond our own--we have a hard time forgiving certain things, but God is willing to forgive all. The only thing he asks of us is faith and obedience.

I Agree

 

[michael servetus]

Sounds like you are a good person. Proud of that, aren't you.....

 

[Pastor_Benjamin]

If you feel you are a sinner you have the power to change that. All you need to do is pray and accept Jesus into your heart as your own personal Lord.

 

[WarEagle]

I am a virgin. I do not take drugs or drink alcohol. I do not engage in violence either physical or emotional. I frequently give of myself to those who are less fortunate & who can benefit from my help. I believing in treating others as I would have them treat me, and I do not believe in revenge.

What then is the Christian foundation for claiming all people, myself included are sinners who need salvation?

Simple. Each of us, yourself included, have broken God's laws and must be punished.

And if, as I have heard, God does not judge us by our actions but by some intangible quality (faith) alone, what incentive then do Christians have to act in any way, including evangelizing?

God does judge us by our actions. He will judge whether or not you've kept His laws.

Does that mean that a murderer & rapist who confesses himself a Christian will be forgiven for those crimes, while I, a non-murderer & non-rapist, will be shunned by God solely for not being Christian?

No.

However, either one of you can be saved if you'll confront your sins, repent of them, and place your faith in Christ's atonement on the cross on your behalf.

And is this not simply a way of saying Christians can do whatever they want?

Not at all. If you're a Christian, then you no longer serve sin but Christ. The Bible tells us that the person who continues on in sin (no matter how loudly he may profess with his mouth to be a Christian), is not a Christian.

 

[calidog]

What then is the Christian foundation for claiming all people, myself included are sinners who need salvation?

That foundational belief comes directly from Jesus. We need Gods grace and forgiveness. The blood shed on the cross is sufficient, all we are asked to do is believe it. It is worth investigating.

Though we are capable of doing good, we miss the mark of perfection, over and over:

Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.