Why Adam Lived to 900.

[busterdog]

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

1Sa 8:19 Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, "No, but we will have a king over us,

Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

My working hypothesis:

Adam had dominion. He decided not to keep the law. He chose not to ask that "God provide himself a lamb."

There is certainly something to spiritual death. But, that doesn't do enough to make sense of Genesis.

Adam, however, did try to do what Jesus did in Gethsemane. He tried to shoulder the burden of sin for the rest of humanity (Eve), which of course, he failed in doing. But, Jesus was the second Adam.

One of the oddities of human existence is the dimension of time. Compared to the perspective of God, the confinement of time is a bit perplexing. Sort of like the movie Time Bandits, where the dwarves did something bad and were running from God to escape the consequences and exploit their freedom (which the did badly).

John the Revelator is told "come up here", as to stand outside of the linear arrow of human, temporary flight from a day of destiny. By the Words, "come up here", he enters, as it were, a door in heaven, from which he looks down on history. This would appear to be a pathway that the flaming sword defends (for man or against man?). From the same vantage point, Adam might have seen the crucifixion and known what to ask for.

 

[laptoppop]

There are some other theories abut how Adam lived to 900. One theory is that God created man and it was good. The human DNA was uncorrupted at that time, but over time, small mutations (which are pretty much ALWAYS negative and bad) accumulated in humans which reduced the lifespan.

Another theory is that there was a canopy of water/ice over the earth that shielded people from cosmic rays and deleterious effects.

I lean towards the first one, but am not dogmatic on the issue.

 

[busterdog]

There are some other theories abut how Adam lived to 900. One theory is that God created man and it was good. The human DNA was uncorrupted at that time, but over time, small mutations (which are pretty much ALWAYS negative and bad) accumulated in humans which reduced the lifespan.

Another theory is that there was a canopy of water/ice over the earth that shielded people from cosmic rays and deleterious effects.

I lean towards the first one, but am not dogmatic on the issue.

Both ideas make sense. There was probably also some measure of evolution of micro-organisms learning to adapt to humans (or being taught).

I have always been particularly interested in why scripture does not record sentence being served on the day of the fall itself. Paul records that Abraham anticipated the possibility that Isaac would be resurrected, which made me wonder Adam had already been through that. The OP solution, however, is a much simpler understanding, particularly suited to lawyers. Sentence was postedponed by the ruling authority, Adam, and served by Jesus.

 

[juvenissun]

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

1Sa 8:19 Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, "No, but we will have a king over us,

Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

My working hypothesis:

Adam had dominion. He decided not to keep the law. He chose not to ask that "God provide himself a lamb."

There is certainly something to spiritual death. But, that doesn't do enough to make sense of Genesis.

Adam, however, did try to do what Jesus did in Gethsemane. He tried to shoulder the burden of sin for the rest of humanity (Eve), which of course, he failed in doing. But, Jesus was the second Adam.

One of the oddities of human existence is the dimension of time. Compared to the perspective of God, the confinement of time is a bit perplexing. Sort of like the movie Time Bandits, where the dwarves did something bad and were running from God to escape the consequences and exploit their freedom (which the did badly).

John the Revelator is told "come up here", as to stand outside of the linear arrow of human, temporary flight from a day of destiny. By the Words, "come up here", he enters, as it were, a door in heaven, from which he looks down on history. This would appear to be a pathway that the flaming sword defends (for man or against man?). From the same vantage point, Adam might have seen the crucifixion and known what to ask for.

I am not quite sure what you are saying.

Are you trying to think how did Adam feel and what Adam could do before expelled? Why is the significance on what he did in trying to save himself and his wife?

Or are you saying that there is no bondage of time in the Garden?

 

[busterdog]

I am not quite sure what you are saying.

Are you trying to think how did Adam feel and what Adam could do before expelled? Why is the significance on what he did in trying to save himself and his wife?

Or are you saying that there is no bondage of time in the Garden?

My initial argument is that people have been at pains to find that Adam died in some sense on Day One of the fall. I tried to make it work that way myself by raising the possibility of a resurrection of Adam, which is what Paul says Abraham thought was possible for Isaac.

Although the phrase "Occam's razor" is so ironically complicated and elitist, I could hurl, there did seem to be a simpler explanation.

"Spiritual death" as an explanation is just confusing and doesn't fully explain what is going on, because it doesn't offer a literal meaning. I am stubbornly insistent that there be a literal truth to every phrase of the bible. For example, the song of Miriam, Miriam is literally singing metaphors, as compared to Gen. 1, which has no "singer" as is just literal (ie, I am unwilling to dilute everything by the metaphor argument). Anyway, the simplest literal truth is the the sentence was suspended or delayed because Adam hid from God. Adam decided to be more or less on his own.

God did not interfere in Adam's dominion in this respect, except that Jesus literally took sin upon himself in Gethsemane, as Adam had done, and, obediently, died "in that day". Interesting that Gen. 2,3 thus establishes a prophetic pattern that everyone should be attuned to. Seek him early. Seek first the Kingdom. Those are just two examples. Today, when you hear his voice ...... Maybe gGod speaks to us everyday. Anyway, "you shall surely die" is a translational issue, in part. The simplest explanation is that Adam didn't die because Adam disobeyed and hid from justice -- not to mention mercy, who was willing to die for him. Being bad at this whole knowing good and evil thing, Adam didn't understand God as Mercy, who would die for Adam.

Being sinless Jesus was also not subject to principalities and powers and had the ability to come before the father and fully ask for the right to become this sacrifice. In Job, it would appear that Satan had an access to God that should have been Adams, though Adam chose to bear sin and then hide from God, not present himself as did Satan.

Too many Churches gloss over the issue of authority in the bible and just say that God is sovereign and leave it at that. God did set up rules that his free beings can operate within. If they choose, they can turn it all back over to God.

As for the bondage of time, time did indeed exist before the fall. But, I don't think the bondage did. It seems man is in fewer dimensions than would appear to be available (even to Satan, who comes before God in Job, perhaps because of his position as Prince, and thus his position of speaking for humanity, albeit out of his hatred) John exceeds this bondage when he becomes the revelator. He steps outside of time. See the transfiguration, the ascension, Paul being caught up, Enoch, Elijah being caught up. See the transportation of Phillip or the miraculous appearances of the resurrected Jesus.


.

 

[peace4ever]

Actually, back in Adam's time, there was much less sin, thus much less disease, smog, polution, crime, etc. Then when the world became more wicked, God wiped out all people and decreased the number of man's days to 120 with the exception of a few people. That number has steadily declined until man began to observe how the human body works.

but more improtantly, most people, including most Christians have no clue that it's God who keeps men alive because as Psalm 139:16 explains, it's God who determines the number of our days.

Also, Psalm 146:4 explains that only after our spirits depart, do men return to the ground. So that may mean that the spirit of man which God formed, is what keeps us alive, unbenounced to scientists.

 

[busterdog]

Actually, back in Adam's time, there was much less sin, thus much less disease, smog, polution, crime, etc. Then when the world became more wicked, God wiped out all people and decreased the number of man's days to 120 with the exception of a few people. That number has steadily declined until man began to observe how the human body works.

but more improtantly, most people, including most Christians have no clue that it's God who keeps men alive because as Psalm 139:16 explains, it's God who determines the number of our days.

Also, Psalm 146:4 explains that only after our spirits depart, do men return to the ground. So that may mean that the spirit of man which God formed, is what keeps us alive, unbenounced to scientists.

All very well said. I agree.

I think Adam was to an extent, on his own, during his 900 years. He was open to some attack from an environment that was probably more favorable than ours.

One thing I did want to do was to explain why Adam lived more than one day after the Fall.

Have a look at my other thread on quantum events in biology. There does seem to be a level at which science can see little but spookiness as an explanation for how things happen. This appears to be one way God keeps people alive.

I would have to go back and look at the scripture that says that God determines the number of a man's days. I tend probably to disagree with the standard explanation for those events. I get tempted to go right after the standard theology that says that "God is in control." I doubt that phrase is even in the Bible. I do agree with it at heart, but I also believe that it is a phrase poorly understood and poorly articulated.

My response is simply that God is not the only one in control. Attempts usually fail to properly articulate how things work when you have sovereign God, devils and man's "sovereignty" over his limited territory. God's rules are sovereign. When he intervenes, His intervention is sovereign. His indwelling and working within people is constant and pervasive. But, people do make choices and do exercise their authority for good or ill on the earth, and often ill. God determined that Adam should die for sin on the same day of eating from the tree, yet Adam had other intentions.

But, when a flood comes upon the earth, that is ordained in God's rule of things and His plan. But, in many ways, it is a question of natural consequences. The flood itself is baked in the cake in a way and the flood happens as the post-fall earth wears out. God doesn't need to change anything to make it happen, though he would apparently with-hold protection. In any event, man takes control of a world that cannot but overwhelm him as man tries to be in charge of the world and know good and evil for himself, without God.

 

[juvenissun]

My initial argument is that people have been at pains to find that Adam died in some sense on Day One of the fall. I tried to make it work that way myself by raising the possibility of a resurrection of Adam, which is what Paul says Abraham thought was possible for Isaac.

Although the phrase "Occam's razor" is so ironically complicated and elitist, I could hurl, there did seem to be a simpler explanation.

"Spiritual death" as an explanation is just confusing and doesn't fully explain what is going on, because it doesn't offer a literal meaning. I am stubbornly insistent that there be a literal truth to every phrase of the bible. For example, the song of Miriam, Miriam is literally singing metaphors, as compared to Gen. 1, which has no "singer" as is just literal (ie, I am unwilling to dilute everything by the metaphor argument). Anyway, the simplest literal truth is the the sentence was suspended or delayed because Adam hid from God. Adam decided to be more or less on his own.

God did not interfere in Adam's dominion in this respect, except that Jesus literally took sin upon himself in Gethsemane, as Adam had done, and, obediently, died "in that day". Interesting that Gen. 2,3 thus establishes a prophetic pattern that everyone should be attuned to. Seek him early. Seek first the Kingdom. Those are just two examples. Today, when you hear his voice ...... Maybe gGod speaks to us everyday. Anyway, "you shall surely die" is a translational issue, in part. The simplest explanation is that Adam didn't die because Adam disobeyed and hid from justice -- not to mention mercy, who was willing to die for him. Being bad at this whole knowing good and evil thing, Adam didn't understand God as Mercy, who would die for Adam.

Being sinless Jesus was also not subject to principalities and powers and had the ability to come before the father and fully ask for the right to become this sacrifice. In Job, it would appear that Satan had an access to God that should have been Adams, though Adam chose to bear sin and then hide from God, not present himself as did Satan.

Too many Churches gloss over the issue of authority in the bible and just say that God is sovereign and leave it at that. God did set up rules that his free beings can operate within. If they choose, they can turn it all back over to God.

As for the bondage of time, time did indeed exist before the fall. But, I don't think the bondage did. It seems man is in fewer dimensions than would appear to be available (even to Satan, who comes before God in Job, perhaps because of his position as Prince, and thus his position of speaking for humanity, albeit out of his hatred) John exceeds this bondage when he becomes the revelator. He steps outside of time. See the transfiguration, the ascension, Paul being caught up, Enoch, Elijah being caught up. See the transportation of Phillip or the miraculous appearances of the resurrected Jesus.

Thanks for the elaboration. Many interesting points. I may come back to them later.

BUT, what do all these have anything to do with the 900 years you put in the title?

 

[visionary]

In God's world, one of His days is like a thousand of ours. Adam almost live one day in the Lord's time frame.

 

[juvenissun]

Actually, back in Adam's time, there was much less sin, thus much less disease, smog, polution, crime, etc. Then when the world became more wicked, God wiped out all people and decreased the number of man's days to 120 with the exception of a few people. That number has steadily declined until man began to observe how the human body works.

but more improtantly, most people, including most Christians have no clue that it's God who keeps men alive because as Psalm 139:16 explains, it's God who determines the number of our days.

Also, Psalm 146:4 explains that only after our spirits depart, do men return to the ground. So that may mean that the spirit of man which God formed, is what keeps us alive, unbenounced to scientists.

Thank you very much for this eye-opening view.

 

[juvenissun]

In God's world, one of His days is like a thousand (years) of ours. Adam almost live one day in the Lord's time frame.

Very interesting.

In Gen 3:8 " ... in the cool of the day ...", that means evening time, which is almost the end of the day.

But, does that mean we only live about 2 hours on God's day?

 

[visionary]

Very interesting.

In Gen 3:8 " ... in the cool of the day ...", that means evening time, which is almost the end of the day.

But, does that mean we only live about 2 hours on God's day?

I don't know... Let's see.. if

God's Day = Man's 1000 years then..

let's say for the sake of time frame, that God's Day is also 24 hours...

24 God hours = 1000 man years

So 1 God hour is = to 1000/24 or 41 years

So you are saying we live aproximately 82 man years or 2 God hours..

Ok.. I see what you are saying.


And while we are on the subject...
tell me, using that same premise, how long is the silence in heaven in earth time...

Rev 8:1
When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.

 

[busterdog]

In God's world, one of His days is like a thousand of ours. Adam almost live one day in the Lord's time frame.

Use the whole verse. It also means he can do a thousand years worth of change in one day.

The verse proves nothing here.

I take Genesis literally. I posted here so I don't have to restart that argument, which has been had many times here.

 

[busterdog]

Very interesting.

In Gen 3:8 " ... in the cool of the day ...", that means evening time, which is almost the end of the day.

But, does that mean we only live about 2 hours on God's day?

Ruach yowm. I prefer early morning as "cool of the day."

 

[hiscosmicgoldfish]

My thinking is that it is a combination of things.. much higher pc of oxygen in the atmosphere, a vapour canopy which screened off the radiation from space, uncorrupted genes, better food, pure water. But why would the life span suddenly cut off at 900 years? If you look at the various early life spans, they all seem to run out after 900 years.. Noah etc. and they started drinking wine after the flood, maybe that had something to do with it as well.. i think it's mainly the unravelling of the DNA via each generation.

 

[juvenissun]

Ruach yowm. I prefer early morning as "cool of the day."

The word has a meaning of breath or wind. Even the evening and the morning could both be cool, but there is not likely any wind in the morning. So I still prefer evening.

Besides, I agree that it would be nice if all that happened to Adam and Eve took place in one day. So God's word would be true (they will die on that day).

Imagine that when they woke up the next morning, everything around are still the same, but the Garden (and God) is gone. How amazing.

 

[busterdog]

My thinking is that it is a combination of things.. much higher pc of oxygen in the atmosphere, a vapour canopy which screened off the radiation from space, uncorrupted genes, better food, pure water. But why would the life span suddenly cut off at 900 years? If you look at the various early life spans, they all seem to run out after 900 years.. Noah etc. and they started drinking wine after the flood, maybe that had something to do with it as well.. i think it's mainly the unravelling of the DNA via each generation.

All possible. There seem to be a number of mysteries about how viruses and endoplasms coexist with human DNA. I it is pretty speculative, but I think there are many factors that could contribute to the unravelling of DNA.

 

[laptoppop]

Actually, after the curse it took a good while for the long lifespans to wind down. This is part of why I think that it was mutational load.

 

[shernren]

God did not interfere in Adam's dominion in this respect, except that Jesus literally took sin upon himself in Gethsemane, as Adam had done, and, obediently, died "in that day". ...

Then why bother with the angels and the flaming sword?

Even if I were a creationist I would still have to say that the Biblical data doesn't match up with your interpretation of it. Can you picture God saying: "Okay, Adam can live as long as he wants - but don't let him near the tree of life!" Why restrict access to the Tree of Life if God will let Adam delay his own death sentence as long as Adam pleases?

More fundamentally, I don't think Adam's "dominion" at all worked the way you mean it to. God put Adam in dominion over nature; the sentence that God passed on Adam was (quite by definition) outside whatever jurisdiction he might still have. I accept a judge's ruling precisely because the judge has authority over me through the legal sentence which I cannot contest; similarly, the punishment was binding on Adam precisely because whatever "dominion" Adam might still have had could not possibly apply to the terms of God's punishment.

Your "solution" really is not a simple one, or a Biblical one, to me.

 

[busterdog]

Then why bother with the angels and the flaming sword?

Jesus is the flaming sword, guarding the way to the tree of life, for man's benefit.

Even if I were a creationist I would still have to say that the Biblical data doesn't match up with your interpretation of it. Can you picture God saying: "Okay, Adam can live as long as he wants - but don't let him near the tree of life!" Why restrict access to the Tree of Life if God will let Adam delay his own death sentence as long as Adam pleases?

Well, Adam can't live as long as he wants. Only as long as he can manage more or less on his own.

Show me scripture that rules out God making that rule, or baking it into the cake, from before the time Adam drew breath.

More fundamentally, I don't think Adam's "dominion" at all worked the way you mean it to. God put Adam in dominion over nature; the sentence that God passed on Adam was (quite by definition) outside whatever jurisdiction he might still have. I accept a judge's ruling precisely because the judge has authority over me through the legal sentence which I cannot contest; similarly, the punishment was binding on Adam precisely because whatever "dominion" Adam might still have had could not possibly apply to the terms of God's punishment.

Why is a "sentence" more appropriate than natural consequences?

On Youtube, there is a polar bear biting a woman on the derriere. For some reason, she jumped into the polar bear enclosure at the Berlin zoo. That was not a sentence, except that God ordained polar bears to be the kind of animal that would bite.

Adam put himself into his own box canyon.

As for "authority", I keep hearing people say "God is in control." I would like to see the scripture on that, because I am not sure this means what people think it means. Look at Jude's reference to the "authority" of satan. Where exactly did that authority come from? Even if you don't accept my position on man's "dominion", the authorities in place on this earth certainly bespeak much more than "God is in control". Somewhere, a lot more authority than that was being doled out. So why not in Gen. 2-3?

Your "solution" really is not a simple one, or a Biblical one, to me.

Well, nothing is simple in this area.

Job 42:11 Then all his brothers, all his sisters, and all those who had been his acquaintances before, came to him and ate food with him in his house; and they consoled him and comforted him for all the adversity that the LORD had brought upon him. Each one gave him a piece of silver and each a ring of gold.

In other words, satan attacked Job just because God made satan do it? That is the logical conclusion of this vague notion of sovereignty that we try to play with somewhat unsuccessfully. I do understand that we need a concept of God's sovereignty, but our formulations on the matter tend to be vulnerable to logical (and scriptural) attack. There really isn't a comprehensive theology on the subject, and don't mistake my ramblings for anything pretending to be definitive on the subject. I stand by it has helpful and responsive to our muddled ideas of sovereignty.

Mat 26:39 He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, "O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You [will]."

Was it "possible"? Now, you can say that it was not possible because we are presuming the obedience of Jesus -- that is implied, but if Jesus puts emphasis on what is "possible", why shouldn't we. Except, Jesus says He is One with the Father. So, there is something beyond mere obedience here.

1Jo 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.
If God defines Love, does God have a choice not to do as Jesus did in Gethsemane? He would have to change his nature. The "choice" Jesus made was apparently as much a natural consequences as the sun rising.

The semantic finesse I am trying to bring to bear is to distinguish between "nature" and a "choice" of God or "sentences" passed by God. (And since I am playing with semantics, although with good reason, it is not as if the standard theologies here have zero application. This is just new light, among others.) Scripture says God doesn't change.

However, if it is in the nature of Jesus to "die in that day", having taken on sin, then why is it not in the nature of man to muddle along for his alotment of days, after man has decided to go against nature and avoid payment for the crime (which God had himself provided).

Lets do another thought experiment. Lets compare Abraham's situation with Adams. One can hardly imagine God inflicting the temptation to human sacrifice upon Abraham. Kierkegaard tried to imagine it and find an excuse for God's barbarity. I don't know that he succeeded all that well. However, since we know that God is good and God is love, it just as obvious as it can be that Abraham's deal is no big deal. If we know who Jesus, we know the answer to the whole problem is faith, not mere human bloodshed. Duh. Of course God was going to provide a substitute for child sacrifice all along. Of course it sounds like we are cheating by looking at the answers in the end of the book, but aren't these answers already demanded by the very goodness of God? Didn't Anselm "prove" God by assuming the best possible God? Why not assume the same thing, something Jesus-like, was already available to Abraham?

For Adam, the figure of Jesus simplifies the problem of Adam's sentence or curse. Since we know that Jesus died within the same day that he took on sin, the answer for Adam's agony is equally simple. Adam should simply offer Himself to the One whose substutionary-sacrificial nature is unchanging (again, avoiding words like "choice" or "sentence"). So, if Jesus is the answer, then what is Adam's question? Adam has a date with death for which hiding and striving and sweating is a poor answer. Remember also, that Adam has gone from (A) the presence of the Supremely Sacrifical One for whom "in that day" is solvable problem to (B) taking his chances in a world now ruled not by beneficence, but by the law of the jungle. If Jesus can answer the question in one day, then Adam has mistakenly passed up a very clear "in that day" option. The "in that day" option being physical death in payment for sin.

(And, youi know how much I like to take "yowm" literally -- and consistently.)