Then we can extend abortion in some cases to 26-30 years of age.I'm an evangelical Christian who believes that although abortion is sinful, it isn't murder, at least in the early trimesters before fetal viability, and that it should be permitted until the unborn child can survive on its own, as the mother is a living human being with her own rights and autonomy over her body.
"The shedding of blood" is not a term to be taken in a literal sense. Otherwise, donating blood to the Red Cross, according to your logic, would be a sin equivalent to murder. "The sheading of blood" means to murder or take innocent life that is not yours to take and does not require a cardiovascular system to make that possible.
You cite Aquinas and Augustine. but the thing is you're actually working from very faulty cherry picking. This serves as a rebuttal to just about everything there, when mentioning St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, and several Popes... You open it up for Catholic source rebuttal.
CHAPTER 43
I quote a Catholic source since you tried to use Catholic sources and misrepresented our beliefs. I don't think you did it intentionally since the misrepresentations have been floating around the internet for a long time. It's just they've been there so long that most Catholic apologists shake their heads when they come up.
Also St. Augustine reconciles potential errors in light of the teachings of his mentor St. Ambrose.
And St. Thomas Aquinas would accept ensoulment as intrinsically connected dogmatically to the Immaculate Conception at conception.
So the link refutes the misrepresentations that fly around from the cherry-picking of quotes.
As far as the bodily autonomy argument, that's been refuted in multiple threads over the last week.
I suppose we can go all into it again.
It is not her body.
And, by the way, if the whole situation is as you have outlined, why would it be a sin??
Only the natural man would attempt to interpret Luke 1 as you have.At first glance its normal to see it that way. The natural man would agree.
John the Baptist's fetus was surrounded with water. Sounds were not the same. Ever duck under water and find you can not hear sounds coming from above the water?
Elizabeth said that when the voice of Mary reached her ears the fetus in her womb leaped in the sphere of her joy. Likewise.. When a mother is scared? Adrenalin is pumping through her body as the fetus also physically reacts. No thought in the fetus. Just a biological reaction.
John could not understand. He did not even have vocabulary yet. His fetus leaped as a sign how overwhelmed in joy Elizabeth (who was filled with the Spirit) became when the voice reached 'her ears.' It was recorded to reveal the intensity of her joy.
For, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines." Judg 13:5
Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly? Jb 3:11
I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly." Ps 22:10 (note! not his God in the womb)
Thus saith the Lord that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen." Isa 44:2 (The Lord formed his character after he was born. The potter and the clay)
For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb." Lk 1:15
Abortion is never permissible. A unique human being is created at the moment of conception, and neither you nor anyone else can ever justify the shedding of this innocent blood to anyone, especially not the Just Judge.
It’s amazing how you still parrot this nonsense even after dozens of dozens of credible scientific references have been provided for you to help educate you in what modern science and biology teaches. Do you just not want to learn?Until the fetus can survive on its own, it is nothing more than an organ of the woman.
Until the fetus can survive on its own, it is nothing more than an organ of the woman. Would you really say that a 3 week old embryo is its own body? No, it is an extension of hers?
Anyway, it's still a sin because God makes us in the womb and we should not flaunt our noses at Him.
Firstly- no, it's not. Can you honestly imagine God telling her, Go ahead and shed this innocent blood. Do not take up your cross and follow me.If the mother must choose between her own life and the baby's life, abortion certainly is permissible. Can you imagine God telling her to die before the fetus is ready to live outside her body?
I'm an evangelical Christian who believes that although abortion is sinful, it isn't murder, at least in the early trimesters before fetal viability, and that it should be permitted until the unborn child can survive on its own, as the mother is a living human being with her own rights and autonomy over her body.
I consider it to be murder post-viability in the third trimester, and would oppose it except for the life health of the mother.
Murder can best be defined as the unjustified killing of a living human being.
And contrary to what many people say, the Bible does not say that life begins at conception, but at ensoulment.
Genesis 2:7 - And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Adam didn't become a living being until he was fully formed, until God created and infused a soul in him, not when he was still a collection of dust that God placed in the garden.
Obviously, this was a special case though, every human being alive now spent nine months as a fetus in their mother's womb, but the question is when was the fetus ensouled?
St. Augustine said that "
The law does not provide that the act abortion pertains to homicide,
for there cannot yet be said to be a live soul in a body that lacks sensation."
Thomas Aquinas said that "the intellective soul [true person] is created by God
at the completion of man's coming into being."
Jacques Martin said that to "admit that the human fetus receives the intellectual soul from the moment of its conception,when matter is in no way ready for it, sounds to me like a philosophical absurdity. It is as absurd as to call a fertilized ovum a baby."
Indeed. Just like it is absurd to call a planted acorn a tree.
You see, while Augustine felt abortion at any stage was sinful, he did not believe that early abortion —the first three months—was murder because the fetus had not been animated by a God-given soul yet. Likewise, Thomas Aquinas, and Popes Innocent III and Gregory XIV also believed that early abortion was not murder, while later ones were, after quickening, when the fetus starts moving and kicking.
As such, terminating a fetus in the early trimesters does not kill a living human being. Therefore, it is not murder. I agree with that principle.
Imagine if a woman, in a fit of jealously, rammed her car into her cheating boyfriend, grievously injuring him and irreparably damaging one of his vital organs. As a result, if he doesn't get an organ transplant he will likely die or be dead in two yearsfrom complications.
His girlfriend happens to be a perfect match; can the state force her to donate her organ to save her? No, they can't, and neither should they be able to, for she has bodily autonomy over her person, and no state can take that away from her.
The state can and should charge her with aggravated assault and, if he dies, vehicular manslaughter. But they should not be able to forcibly strap her to a medical exam room and extract a kidney from her, relegating her from womanhood to being a simple incubator.
The same logic applies with abortion, women are allowed to get abortions before viability because she has bodily autonomy, and she can't be forced to live as a human incubator.
Firstly- no, it's not. Can you honestly imagine God telling her, Go ahead and shed this innocent blood. Do not take up your cross and follow me.
Second- abortion is never medically necessary.
Third- such cases represent no sizable percentage of abortion cases. This stance of yours cannot be equally applied across the spectrum.
Prove it. The ball is in your court. You are also responsible for explaining why "hard cases" should get to make the law.Oh yes, sometimes it is medcally necessasry. Science and medicine support this. Only pro-lifers say there is no medical reason for it. So what if there are very few medically necessary abortions? That doesn't give anyone the right to deny it ever happens.
In reality most of us could not survive by ourselves at any age. We are actually very communal.Then we can extend abortion in some cases to 26-30 years of age.
Seems to be the going rate for “kids” to survive on their own in the millennial generation.
In reality most of us could not survive by ourselves at any age. We are actually very communal.
Which means that few if any of us are viable. So the whole 'viability argument' to justify abortion actually disappears.
Biblically, the only "rights" anyone has, to include women, are to love, worship, and obey God. If there are any "God given human rights" other than those, we then would be in a position to demand them from God and tell Him He is wrong when we do not have them. However, I do agree with you that someone can still be a Christian and support abortion. But that doesn't mean that abortion is a position that a Christian ought to take. Adultery is something that is legal and just as sinful as any other sin, but condoning and supporting sin at any level is a position that no Christian ought to take. Let they be walking in the flesh and not the spirit. Galatians 5If you mean the single word "cannot," you are totally wrong. It is not an opinion, but a fact, that a person can be a Christian and support women's right at the same time. Otherwise I would not be a Christian. Are you trying to tell people they are not Christians just because they support abortions when the mother has to choose between her own life and the baby's life or takes a Plan B pill?
How many total pages of Augustine have you read? How many total pages of Thomas? Just wondering.I didn't misrepresent Aquinas or Augustine, I accurately put what they believed about how early abortion isn't murder as the fetus has not been ensouled by God yet. For Aquinas, it was the 40th day for male fetuses and the 80th day for female fetuses, and not only was abortion sinful, but after that time period it constituted murder. For Augustine, it was after the three-month mark when abortion became murder.
Because biblically there is no "God given right" to bodily autonomy.What are the refutations to the bodily autonomy argument I raised with how we can't force a woman to donate her organ to save a victim of a car crash she was involved in, even if she intentionally caused the crash, such as the example with the jealous girlfriend ramming her cheating boyfriend?
What are the refutations to the bodily autonomy argument I raised with how we can't force a woman to donate her organ to save a victim of a car crash she was involved in, even if she intentionally caused the crash, such as the example with the jealous girlfriend ramming her cheating boyfriend?
There is no other situation on Earth but abortion where people argue that humans should be forced to relinquish their bodily autonomy and act as incubators for the state. In my mind, it is frankly misogynistic. Women are autonomous beings, with God-given free will, and have lives of their own, and should make their own decisions.
I didn't misrepresent Aquinas or Augustine, I accurately put what they believed about how early abortion isn't murder as the fetus has not been ensouled by God yet. For Aquinas, it was the 40th day for male fetuses and the 80th day for female fetuses, and not only was abortion sinful, but after that time period it constituted murder. For Augustine, it was after the three-month mark when abortion became murder.
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