• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Why a true omniscient cannot coexist with true free will.

Status
Not open for further replies.

Wiccan_Child

Contributor
Mar 21, 2005
19,419
673
Bristol, UK
✟46,731.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
Suppose I, an entity allegedly with free will, and God*, an entity allegedly omniscient, are in a room with two boxes, A and B. God asks me to pick one of the boxes.

God knows I will pick box A (in this scenario, at least). I don't know God knows this, nor have I made my decision (such that it may be).
  • Can I pick box B?
    • If so, then God is not omniscient.
    • If not, then I do not have free will.
This is why a true omniscient being cannot coexist with an entity with true free will.

*The word is only a placeholder for 'the omniscient'. Don't read too much theology from this
 

dayhiker

Mature veteran
Sep 13, 2006
15,561
5,305
MA
✟232,130.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Wiccan,
Your post isn't logical! How can you pick both?
"God asks me to pick one .. I pick box A .. Can I pick B"
No you can't pick B because you picked A, you said you picked A. You didn't say God forced you to pick A. because you said you picked A just like God asked you to. You have no conciousness that God forced you to pick A. So I say your then clause is already ruled out because you picked already picked A.

dayhiker
 
Upvote 0

Wiccan_Child

Contributor
Mar 21, 2005
19,419
673
Bristol, UK
✟46,731.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
Wiccan,
Your post isn't logical! How can you pick both?
In the scenario, I cannot pick both, only one.

"God asks me to pick one .. I pick box A .. Can I pick B"
No you can't pick B because you picked A, you said you picked A.
No, I did not, and you have deliberately misquoted me. I said:
God knows I will pick box A.
I also said:
...nor have I made my decision.
In the scenario, I have made no decision; I have picked no box.

You didn't say God forced you to pick A. because you said you picked A just like God asked you to. You have no conciousness that God forced you to pick A. So I say your then clause is already ruled out because you picked already picked A.

dayhiker
Your premise is flawed: I have picked no box. God predicts that I will pick A, and if he is truely omniscient, then his prediction will be correct.
 
Upvote 0

dayhiker

Mature veteran
Sep 13, 2006
15,561
5,305
MA
✟232,130.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Wiccan,
To be Omniccent a being has to be outside of time. yes, we are in time so I agree that you haven't picked A yet. But when you say the Omnicent knows your going to pick A your talking of a being that is outside of time. So the Omnicence to find out what your decission is looks down the time line and sees you picking A. Then comes back to your time and tells you that you picked A.

So you see I didn't misquote you, You said I will pick A .. how does God know you will pick A, because God isn't bound by time like we are. God can see into the future to see that "I will pick A."

So its your understanding of time that you have to think thru.

dayhiker
 
Upvote 0

Wiccan_Child

Contributor
Mar 21, 2005
19,419
673
Bristol, UK
✟46,731.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
I disagree with your premise that an omniscient must be 'outside time'. What makes you think this?
 
Upvote 0

chaz345

Well-Known Member
Dec 14, 2005
17,453
668
58
✟20,724.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Knowing is not the same as controlling. That you haven't made the choice yet does not prevent Him from knowing what choice you will make.

It's a huge perspective difference. We see and experience time in a linear way so it is hard to get our minds around the idea that somone knowing future events isn't necessarily controlling them.
 
Upvote 0

elcapitan

Senior Member
Jul 29, 2007
519
36
✟23,347.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private

It doesn't matter that he's not controlling us. The fact is, that logically, there is only one choice to make if God is omniscient.

It's like what Henry Ford said about the Model T: "You can get it in any color you like-as long as it's black". Is that choice in any meaningful sense of that word? I think not.
 
Upvote 0

MelissaShae

Well-Known Member
Apr 3, 2007
535
48
44
Tahoka, Texas
✟16,089.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican

It seems as though you are thinking that God is making the choice for us, he is not. We have the free will to choose but he already knows what we are going to choose so it is no surprise to him therefore he is omniscient. If we decided on A and then change our mind and choose B, he already knows that we are going to do this.
 
Upvote 0

elcapitan

Senior Member
Jul 29, 2007
519
36
✟23,347.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
The "God exists outside of time" argument is a red herring. It implies that all time exists simultaneously (or that God can see all time simultaneously), and so the future is as immutable as the past.

If an omniscient God can see into the future and knows (with absolute certainty) that you are going to pick box A, you have to pick box A. If you don't pick box A, it proves that God must not be omniscient. Period.
 
Upvote 0

chaz345

Well-Known Member
Dec 14, 2005
17,453
668
58
✟20,724.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican

If you can't, or choose not to see the relevance of the huge perspective difference, and how foreknoweledge by one party has zero bearing on the freeness of the choice of another party, then continuing is pointless.
 
Upvote 0

elcapitan

Senior Member
Jul 29, 2007
519
36
✟23,347.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private

You don't get it.

If He knows we're going to change our mind, then we also have to change our mind, to be in line with His knowledge. If we can't do anything that God does not know about in advance, we only have one choice. Is that really free will in any meaningful sense?
 
Upvote 0

BloodwashedPilgrim

Regular Member
Jul 18, 2007
179
12
California
✟22,855.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You might disagree with his premise, but that is the premise of omniscience as a characteristic of the Judeo-Christian Triune Godhead. Arguing about the definition of the word doesn't change the validity of the position. So, our God, being omniscient and eternal exists outside of time and space.

Your argument would be much better constructed based on the premise of a truly Sovereign entity in correlation with a being (obviously under the entity's sovereignty) who at the same time has the coexisting trait of "free will".

Omniscience in no way forces one to act. Omniscience merely knows the action which will be made. Being able to see the future (if you will) does not mean that you in any way control and/or manipulate that future. This is why your argument would be much more defensible in a premise of Sovereignty and Free Will.


1) However, consider this, is it not possible for my free will to simply be on a perceptional basis?

Of the two entities, I am the lesser, thus my characteristics are those that are finite and mutable, and the greater entity is that whose traits are infinite and immutable. The greater entity obviously has a perceptional capacity with much greater vastness than do I, as a matter of fact infinitely so.

The question to then pose concerning my inferiority in characteristics is my perception of my alleged free will.

From my viewpoint, I can act entirely of my own discernment and choosing. My finiteness and mere knowledgeable existence does not allow me to see any of the supposed sovereignty superimposed by the greater entity.

2) The other perceptional basis of free will would be concerning limitation in choice, but still allowance for freedom of choice.

I will use your own analogical premise to prove this point.

Box A and Box B sit before me. I choose Box A. Who limited my choices to only Box A and Box B? This has left me with a mere four choices; choose A, B, both or neither. There is nothing else I can do, thus obviously some sovereign entity has already superimposed His sovereignty over my free will in some respect. This perfectly demonstrates that a greater entity must exist.

If I had free will in an exhaustive essence I should have no limit to the choices I could make, that would be true free will as you labeled it.

Example:
Another simple analogy to portray this is a teacher giving a multiple choice test. You have free will to pick any answer for any question you want, however, the teacher supersedes your free will by limiting your answers to those already provided by them.

Does this mean you have no power of choice, no implementation of will? Absolutely not, it means your implementation of free will is not exhaustive.

Your argument can be entirely valid to show two things:

1) There is a sovereign entity in existence.
2) My free will is not as exhaustive as I may want to believe, however, I have still been allowed the implement it.

Thus, without you personally defining true free will, and thus my own interpretation of your intent, I would say you are right.
True Free Will does not exist within our finiteness in correlation to the Sovereign Entity which supersedes our will. However, true Sovereignty must exist, as even your own analogy indicates.
 
Upvote 0

elcapitan

Senior Member
Jul 29, 2007
519
36
✟23,347.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
If you can't, or choose not to see the relevance of the huge perspective difference, and how foreknoweledge by one party has zero bearing on the freeness of the choice of another party, then continuing is pointless.

An omniscient God does not make predictions. He knows, with absolute certainty. If He knows in advance you will pick box A, then you will pick box A. You can't choose otherwise because that would violate the fact that His knowledge is absolute. In other words, is it freedom if you have only one choice?
 
Upvote 0

elcapitan

Senior Member
Jul 29, 2007
519
36
✟23,347.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private

The problem here is that because an omniscient being knows everything from every time, with absolute certainty, he Has effectively limited the number of choices in every situation to 1 (i.e. the one He knows will happen). If we can only choose one option, is that free will (not just "true free will"'), by your definition?

Once again, we cannot make a choice other than the one He knows we will take simply because He is omniscient.
 
Upvote 0

chaz345

Well-Known Member
Dec 14, 2005
17,453
668
58
✟20,724.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican


Since you don't have the same knoweledge, you do, from your perspective, have more than one choice. Like someone else just said only in a different way, our perception of freedom is our reality.
 
Upvote 0

BloodwashedPilgrim

Regular Member
Jul 18, 2007
179
12
California
✟22,855.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Your premise for omniscience is not consistent with its meaning.
1.having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things.

I can know all the answers on the test, but that does not make them the right answers. They are the right answers, because they are the right answers.

In the same way, God can know everything you will ever do, but that does not make it what you will do.
It is what you will do, because it is what you will do. An entity knowing that or not does not change it.

There is no superimposition in the characteristic of omniscience.

I understand what you are trying to say, but it is a fallacy.
 
Upvote 0

elcapitan

Senior Member
Jul 29, 2007
519
36
✟23,347.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
Since you don't have the same knoweledge, you do, from your perspective, have more than one choice.

So? From God's perspective, you don't have freedom.

Like someone else just said only in a different way, our perception of freedom is our reality.

So is there no objective reality? If I close my eyes, and I perceive that everything is black, does that mean that everything disappeared? Please, try harder.

If an omniscient being exists we can have only one choice in every situation, regardless of whether we perceive it that way or not.
 
Upvote 0

dayhiker

Mature veteran
Sep 13, 2006
15,561
5,305
MA
✟232,130.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
It makes no sense to me to say you have a choice of A or B and you only have one choice. This is illogical to me.

No being can be omnisceint if he is inside time. Thihs being just wouldn't know what was going to happen in the future. This being would only know what was happening them and what chioces were made then.

To know what happened in the future one has to be able to go there and see what happened.

The way this is pictured, is think of us living in a 3 dimentional world: length, heigth and width. Limit this to a cube moving down thru time. Like a block on a string. To put an Omniscent into that time is to also put that omniscient into the cube and so into a box. Now an Omniscient has to know everthing but how can a being in a box know everything.

So the Omniscent is outside of time/space and move to any time along the time line see what choice we make and report it back to an earlier time.

This keeps the choice and the Omniscience of both beings in tack. Ony way it makes sense to me.

dayhiker
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.