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Cheeky Monkey

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For even one change in a binding site to happen it would mathematically take more millions of years than history allows for. Take that times all the changes that are required for evolution and you are beyond the age of the earth. That is for ONE species only.

Bold Biology for 2009 - Biologic Institute
And when a different mechanism is used rather than the one tested?



Actually no. That would be evidence for non-convergent evolution.
Or design. In fact nothing on earth would test the design hypothesis because an omnipotent inscrutable designer could do anything for any reason. It's just a story, not an hypothesis.


I don't see how as the universe and life is ordered, is governed by laws and science has no answer to how life started.
Nor is there an answer to the onset of turbulence but that doesn't mean that a Great Turbulator exists. A few hundred years ago we didn't understand lightning so I guess Thor was real then.


Any statement about anything that is not able to be observed or tested or repeated is "presuming". (Evolution for example) Of course the Christian has a supposed eyewitness account from someone that did observe it.
No it doesn't.
 
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Smidlee

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Or design. In fact nothing on earth would test the design hypothesis because an omnipotent inscrutable designer could do anything for any reason. It's just a story, not an hypothesis.
I do agree there is a limit of how much you can learn about the Creator from the creation. It's exactly the same with man's created universe like "World of Warcraft". There is a limit of how much you can learn how the game was design from within the universe (game). You need access to the code to really understand it's design. Even the code wouldn't tell you much about the designers. You need to meet them in person.

So even if someone see design in nature does not mean they know the Creator.
 
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Cheeky Monkey

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I do agree there is a limit of how much you can learn about the Creator from the creation. It's exactly the same with man's created universe like "World of Warcraft". There is a limit of how much you can learn how the game was design from within the universe (game). You need access to the code to really understand it's design. Even the code wouldn't tell you much about the designers. You need to meet them in person.

So even if someone see design in nature does not mean they know the Creator.

When you can actually demonstrate (rather than just presume) that the universe was designed then we can discuss the limits of what we can learn about it.
 
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Smidlee

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When you can actually demonstrate (rather than just presume) that the universe was designed then we can discuss the limits of what we can learn about it.
I told you many times I demonstrate the universe is designed by the fact matter and energy alone can't explain the origins of stars, planets, life,etc. There is third element need ... information, code, etc. products of a mind.
These are the same requirement I need for man's universe "World of Warcraft:
1) matter - PC with the right hardware
2) electricity- 120 volt 60 Hz to be exact
3) code -software is what makes "WoW" what it is and not Mario.

All the pagan nature religions believed the universe created us while the Bible claim the universe was created by the Word (code,information) of God.
 
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Cheeky Monkey

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I told you many times I demonstrate the universe is designed by the fact matter and energy alone can't explain the origins of stars, planets, life,etc. There is third element need ... information, code, etc. products of a mind.
These are the same requirement I need for man's universe "World of Warcraft:
1) matter - PC with the right hardware
2) electricity- 120 volt 60 Hz to be exact
3) code -software is what makes "WoW" what it is and not Mario.

All the pagan nature religions believed the universe created us while the Bible claim the universe was created by the Word (code,information) of God.

There's no code for stars. You are just confusing metaphors with reality. The map is not the territory.
 
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Smidlee

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There's no code for stars. You are just confusing metaphors with reality. The map is not the territory.
From what I read scientist still has no idea how stars are formed without stars already present. In World of Warcraft everything is part of the code including the stars.
 
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Oncedeceived

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You did when you said that life was designed and created separately.

You don't even know what created separately means so how in the world do you conclude that design precludes evolution?



Skunks fall into a monophyletic group. What is your purpose in pointing this out?

You wanted a study to back my claim.

Then why do you keep claiming that life was designed and created separately? Also, I do have the evidence that all life shares a common ancestor.

And why do you continue to avoid telling me what it means to you to be created separately.


Supportive evidence is evidence. That's how it works.

If it works for you, it works for me. Remember that.



Why is a nested hierarchy necessary?

Mantra. It is necessary because that is how life progressed throughout its history.

That is false. The theory of evolution says nothing about the chances of specific species being fossilized and surviving in enough numbers to have been found. In fact, Darwin wrote an entire chapter in Origin of Species on why we will always be missing some of these fossils.

No, you have misunderstood what I was saying. I was saying that there would need to be precursors to have the life forms in the Cambrian according to ToE. Missing fossils is one thing, missing an entire stage in the evolution model is another.

'I cannot doubt that all the Silurian trilobites have descended from some one crustacean, which must have lived long before the Silurian age....Consequently, if my theory be true, it is indisputable that before the lowest Silurian strata was deposited, long periods elapsed, as long as, or probably longer than, the whole interval from the Silurian to the present day.....The case must at present remain inexplicable; and may be truely urged as a valid argument against the views here entertained' Darwin.

The DNA evidence is overwhelming.

It doesn't matter. It is supportive evidence. It doesn't prove empirically that which is missing.

That you think fossils are the only way to evidence evolution.

Don't presume to tell me what I think. I don't think fossils are the only way to evidence evolution.
DNA is the empirical proof (as in "proven beyond a reasonable doubt").

For what?


Baloney. I have both DNA and fossil evidence. What do you have other than claims?

So do I. I also have a worldview that consistently works with what we see in nature. I have evidence that supports what the Bible says about the universe. All these things support that what the Bible says is true concerning our universe and the life we see in it.


Sorry, but evidence that is consistent with normal natural processes is not evidence of God. Never has been.

Who says? Who has the authority to claim that natural processes are hands off to God. Who has the authority to tell God that evidence that points to Him is not allowed. If I and millions of other Christians are correct, God created this universe and everything in it and His authority will not be left unchallenged. It might be inflating to think that you are debating the existence of God with mere humans, but if we are right, God will be the one that proves you wrong. God said that men would worship the created rather than the Creator.


You are telling me that I have to accept that God exists without any evidence. Sorry, that isn't going to happen. Present the evidence, then I will consider it.

I am not telling you have to accept God at all. That is between you and God. However, you claim that there is no reason to accept that there is any evidence for God and the Creation Narrative and that is false.



I have no presupposition that God does or doesn't exist. Don't project your presuppositions onto me. Keep them to yourself.

I think that is just your safe little corner that you hide in. You can tell me that you just want evidence for God but I don't believe that to be the truth and I think you know it. You want to continue to believe that there is no God. You don't want to be a believer and have the whole scientific community who you hold in high esteem to brand you stupid or ignorant of the world. I could be wrong of course, but I doubt it.

I see that you are projecting your own close-mindedness onto me. If you present evidence that God exists then I will accept that God exists. I have no presuppositions one way or the other.

You know you might be right. Maybe you do want some irrefutable evidence so that it would make it more acceptable in the world's eyes to see that there is evidence for His existence. Maybe then it wouldn't be so ridiculed and the believers wouldn't be considered stupid. But God doesn't want it that way. It is a personal choice and with that choice comes different outcomes. Just sayin'.


Species that do not share a common ancestor. Those are separately created kinds. I have said this multiple times now.

Exactly, you keep saying the same thing, all the while not saying anything at all. What are separately created kinds?


The only preconceived idea is yours. You have admitted that you start with the presupposition that whatever we see God had to create it, no matter what. This leads you to pretend as if God's actions will be indistinguishable from God not acting at all. It leads you to absolutely ludicrous conclusions.

You start with the preconceived idea that only evolution could be true. So?


How did you determine this? Do you have a time machine?

We do not have any currently.



Cars do not fall into a nested hierarchy.

Whatever. I don't care one way or the other.

For humans we do see ape-like precursurs. For apes we see monkey-like precursors. For primates we see mammal precursors, and it continues right down the line.

So?


What features would a fossil need in order for you to accept it as being transitional?

You are not getting this whole thing.
 
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Cheeky Monkey

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From what I read scientist still has no idea how stars are formed without stars already present. In World of Warcraft everything is part of the code including the stars.

A couple of hundred years ago we didn't know how lightning formed. Does that mean Thor made back then? Right now we don't understand how high temperature superconductors work. Is there a little spirit in them making them work?
 
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Smidlee

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A couple of hundred years ago we didn't know how lightning formed. Does that mean Thor made back then? Right now we don't understand how high temperature superconductors work. Is there a little spirit in them making them work?
Just because lightning can be explain by energy and matter only doesn't mean everything can. I'm not arguing what is not known but what is known.
 
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Cheeky Monkey

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Just because lightning can be explain by energy and matter only doesn't mean everything can. I'm not arguing what is not known but what is known.

Really? Because the post I just replied to was a dead ringer for the argument from ignorance. We don't know how stars form therefore god.
 
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Smidlee

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Really? Because the post I just replied to was a dead ringer for the argument from ignorance. We don't know how stars form therefore god.
We don't know how stars are formed by matter and energy only just I don't know how World of Warcraft is form by matter and energy only. We do know things can be form by matter,energy and intelligence.
 
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Cheeky Monkey

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We don't know how stars are formed by matter and energy only just I don't know how World of Warcraft is form by matter and energy only. We do know things can be form by matter,energy and intelligence.

As far as I can see WoW is formed of matter and energy, the supernatural entities in it are not real. But you're just making the argument from ignorance again, all about what isn't known. What direct evidence do you have of actual design?
 
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Smidlee

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As far as I can see WoW is formed of matter and energy, the supernatural entities in it are not real. But you're just making the argument from ignorance again, all about what isn't known. What direct evidence do you have of actual design?
Wow is code. Do you know information is not matter or energy even though it "rides" on matter or energy? The physical property of a DVD can't explain the origins of the movie coded on it.
There is nothing supernatural with information,code,design as we do it all the time. We ourselves are the greatest evidence of design. We do what we are. We are after God's image we create stuff even just for beauty.
`
 
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Cheeky Monkey

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Wow is code. Do you know information is not matter or energy even though it "rides" on matter or energy? The physical property of a DVD can't explain the origins of the movie coded on it.
There is nothing supernatural with information,code,design as we do it all the time. We ourselves are the greatest evidence of design. We do what we are. We are after God's image we create stuff even just for beauty.
`

Information is just patterns of matter and energy.
 
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Cheeky Monkey

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No. Patterns by itself means nothing without something to decode it. Snowflakes produces a pattern but isn't information.

Information and meaning are not synonyms in this context. The snowflake pattern is information under information theory but the meaning requires us to make a meaning.
 
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Smidlee

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Information and meaning are not synonyms in this context. The snowflake pattern is information under information theory but the meaning requires us to make a meaning.
Information, in its most restricted technical sense, is a sequence of symbols that can be interpreted as a message. Information can be recorded as signs, or transmitted as signals. Information is any kind of event that affects the state of a dynamic system that can interpret the information.
 
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Cheeky Monkey

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To me, universal genetic code is evidence for design.

Like the fact that there are no tigers around me is evidence that my laptop keeps tigers away. A non-universal genetic code is just as consistent with design by an omnipotent inscrutable supernatural being.
 
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Cheeky Monkey

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Information, in its most restricted technical sense, is a sequence of symbols that can be interpreted as a message. Information can be recorded as signs, or transmitted as signals. Information is any kind of event that affects the state of a dynamic system that can interpret the information.
So where is "meaning" in there? Also how does that preclude a snowflake from being encoded information about the process of nucleation and freezing?
 
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