• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Why ... (2)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Loudmouth

Contributor
Aug 26, 2003
51,417
6,143
Visit site
✟98,025.00
Faith
Agnostic
You base this conclusion on what? What we know is that there were some kind of kinds in which the kind came after, how do you then conclude that it is impossible for created kinds not sharing common ancestry?

How is it impossible for dry to be wet? Because if it is wet, then it isn't dry. Do you understand this or not?

If two species share a common ancestor then they can not be separately created kinds. Separately created means not sharing a common ancestor, BY DEFINITION.
 
Upvote 0

Oncedeceived

Senior Veteran
Jul 11, 2003
21,214
629
✟66,870.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
And they are . . . ?

Loudmouth there is no way to list angles, however, if we use Feduccia; he believes (wrong or right doesn't matter) has a different angle than other scientists.



I mean this in the kindest way possible, but you are wrong. It's ok. You will notice that they are lumping eukaryotes and prokaryotes into the same basket. Just because there is HGT between bacteria does not negate the netsted hierarchies produced in metazoans that lack HGT.

Thank you for being kind. :) How do you know that they lack HGT? The way I understand it is that there is no certain way to detect that.




How is it a straw man?

It is not an accurate depiction of the Biblical kinds.
 
Upvote 0

Oncedeceived

Senior Veteran
Jul 11, 2003
21,214
629
✟66,870.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
How is it impossible for dry to be wet? Because if it is wet, then it isn't dry. Do you understand this or not?

If two species share a common ancestor then they can not be separately created kinds. Separately created means not sharing a common ancestor, BY DEFINITION.

Don't yell!

What is the definition of separately created kinds?
 
Upvote 0

Oncedeceived

Senior Veteran
Jul 11, 2003
21,214
629
✟66,870.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
In my experience, yes. There are some very interesting characters in science, and I have met a few that are driven more by ego than data.

I suppose that is true in what ever field one looks at. :(


All are scientists. You are claiming that scientists who go against the consensus are outcasts and never listened to when history shows that you are completely wrong. The scientists who are not listened to are the scientists who are wrong.

You didn't read what I said. I am not talking about history. I am talking about today.



What are these alternatives, and why do YOU think they are good alternatives?

I was just using him as an example.
 
Upvote 0

Loudmouth

Contributor
Aug 26, 2003
51,417
6,143
Visit site
✟98,025.00
Faith
Agnostic
You didn't read what I said. I am not talking about history. I am talking about today.

Sorry, but I am not going to ignore the last 200 years of history to focus on one day.

I was just using him as an example.

Then why don't you show me someone who has a good alternative theory other than evolution that explains biodiversity, and why you think it is a good scientific alternative.
 
Upvote 0

Loudmouth

Contributor
Aug 26, 2003
51,417
6,143
Visit site
✟98,025.00
Faith
Agnostic
Loudmouth there is no way to list angles, however, if we use Feduccia; he believes (wrong or right doesn't matter) has a different angle than other scientists.

Scientists have already looked at that angle, and found that the evidence does not support it.

But even more so, Feduccia was claiming that birds evolved from reptillian ancestors. It wasn't an angle other than evolution. It was evolution. The only question is was which branch birds evolved from, and the evidence showed that Feduccia's hypothesis was wrong.


Thank you for being kind. :) How do you know that they lack HGT? The way I understand it is that there is no certain way to detect that.

If there were it would be immediately detectable when you start to compare genomes. The closest thing that can be found to HGT is insertions of exogenous retroviruses that produce the same genes in different species.

It is not an accurate depiction of the Biblical kinds.

Why not? If I asked why there was a fish with lungs and gills would that be an inaccurate depection of the Biblical kinds? What about an animal with fur that lays eggs? How do you determine which are inaccurate and which are accurate? Where do trilobites fit into the Biblical kinds?
 
Upvote 0

Oncedeceived

Senior Veteran
Jul 11, 2003
21,214
629
✟66,870.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No, I'm claiming that his claim as such is not falsifiable.

So, even if it is true, it doesn't matter if it is not falsifiable? He may not have the evidence now but what if he does later? I mean I don't care one way or the other, but it seems to me that there was no evidence previously for the dino/bird evolution so it seems a little strange. I don't think he is even saying that it couldn't be a dino, he is just skeptical with the evidence in hand.
 
Upvote 0

Oncedeceived

Senior Veteran
Jul 11, 2003
21,214
629
✟66,870.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Scientists have already looked at that angle, and found that the evidence does not support it.

Support what exactly?

But even more so, Feduccia was claiming that birds evolved from reptillian ancestors. It wasn't an angle other than evolution. It was evolution. The only question is was which branch birds evolved from, and the evidence showed that Feduccia's hypothesis was wrong.

I didn't say it wasn't anything other than evolution. Do you always have such tunnel vision? You just seem to expect that I am arguing against evolution every time I post.

How do they know he is wrong? What did they base their conclusions on?

If there were it would be immediately detectable when you start to compare genomes. The closest thing that can be found to HGT is insertions of exogenous retroviruses that produce the same genes in different species.

How are they detected, because I thought that was the whole problem. Epigenesis works in the genome and so does HGT through recombination and such.


Why not? If I asked why there was a fish with lungs and gills would that be an inaccurate depection of the Biblical kinds? What about an animal with fur that lays eggs? How do you determine which are inaccurate and which are accurate? Where do trilobites fit into the Biblical kinds?

I don't know and either do you.
 
Upvote 0

Oncedeceived

Senior Veteran
Jul 11, 2003
21,214
629
✟66,870.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0

Oncedeceived

Senior Veteran
Jul 11, 2003
21,214
629
✟66,870.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Sorry, but I am not going to ignore the last 200 years of history to focus on one day.



Then why don't you show me someone who has a good alternative theory other than evolution that explains biodiversity, and why you think it is a good scientific alternative.


What?????? How in the world did you come up with that?
 
Upvote 0

Loudmouth

Contributor
Aug 26, 2003
51,417
6,143
Visit site
✟98,025.00
Faith
Agnostic
That is not a definition.

Yes, it is. Separately created species means that they were created separately from other species which necessarily means that they don't share a common ancestor. That is what those words mean.

That is a set in stone straw man.

So you are fine with a single universal common ancestor for all life, a universal common ancestor that all life evolved from?
 
Upvote 0

Oncedeceived

Senior Veteran
Jul 11, 2003
21,214
629
✟66,870.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yes, it is. Separately created species means that they were created separately from other species which necessarily means that they don't share a common ancestor. That is what those words mean.

Where did species come about? Species is not a Biblical word.


So you are fine with a single universal common ancestor for all life, a universal common ancestor that all life evolved from?

I don't know and either do you.
 
Upvote 0

Loudmouth

Contributor
Aug 26, 2003
51,417
6,143
Visit site
✟98,025.00
Faith
Agnostic
Support what exactly?

Oncedeceived: Loudmouth there is no way to list angles, however, if we use Feduccia; he believes (wrong or right doesn't matter) has a different angle than other scientists.

Me: Scientists have already looked at that angle, and found that the evidence does not support it.

Does it make sense now?

I didn't say it wasn't anything other than evolution. Do you always have such tunnel vision?

That is why I keep asking you to explain yourself which you rarely do. I askedy you what you meant by angles, and you were as etheral as usual. It would really help if you would start filling in the blanks instead of floating all over the place.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY ANGLES? You said in a previous post, "Really? There are many angles to every facet of science." What does that mean?

When you say that there are separately created kinds, how can that mean that they were not separately created?

You just seem to expect that I am arguing against evolution every time I post.

Then explain what you are arguing.

How do they know he is wrong?

Because they found transitionals with a mixture of theropod and avian features which supported the theropod origin of birds.

What did they base their conclusions on?

Comparative morphology of living birds and extinct non-avian dinosaurs.

How are they detected, because I thought that was the whole problem. Epigenesis works in the genome and so does HGT through recombination and such.

HGT moves exact copies of genes or chunks of genome from one species to another. We have sequenced the human and mouse genome, as one example. If there were a gene in mice that was nearly identical to a human gene while being much different in other primate and rodent species then it would be exceedingly easy to detect. Nothing like that has been found outside of ERV's.

Recombination events involve DNA that is already in the genome, and epigenetics does not even change DNA sequence (it involves DNA methyloation and histone ubiquitination). Epigenetics is also short lived and needs constant stimuli to stay on the same track. None of these are considered HGT in and of themselves. HGT involves the movement of genetic material from one species to another.

I don't know and either do you.

But you just said that you did know.

"It is not an accurate depiction of the Biblical kinds."

So at first you say that a depiction is not accurate, and the next you are playing dumb. Why is that?
 
Upvote 0

Loudmouth

Contributor
Aug 26, 2003
51,417
6,143
Visit site
✟98,025.00
Faith
Agnostic
Upvote 0

Oncedeceived

Senior Veteran
Jul 11, 2003
21,214
629
✟66,870.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Could you at least try to lift a finger and illuminate this discussion? At least try?

reputation_goldstar.gif
reputation_goldstar.gif
reputation_goldstar.gif
reputation_goldstar.gif
reputation_goldstar.gif
reputation_silverstar.gif
reputation_silverstar.gif
reputation_silverstar.gif
reputation_silverstar.gif
reputation_silverstar.gif
reputation_bronzestar.gif
reputation_bronzestar.gif
reputation_bronzestar.gif
reputation_bronzestar.gif
reputation_bronzestar.gif

reputation_green.gif
reputation_green.gif
reputation_green.gif
reputation_green.gif
reputation_green.gif
reputation_greenh.gif
reputation_greenh.gif
reputation_greenh.gif
reputation_greenh.gif
reputation_greenh.gif
reputation_gold.gif
reputation_gold.gif
reputation_gold.gif
reputation_gold.gif
reputation_gold.gif


Originally Posted by Loudmouth
Sorry, but I am not going to ignore the last 200 years of history to focus on one day.



Then why don't you show me someone who has a good alternative theory other than evolution that explains biodiversity, and why you think it is a good scientific alternative.


What?????? How in the world did you come up with that?[/Quote]

Sorry. I always go back to the post to make sure. I do get lazy sometimes though. :)
 
Upvote 0

Oncedeceived

Senior Veteran
Jul 11, 2003
21,214
629
✟66,870.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.