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Loudmouth

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I don't find the word species in the Bible. I find kinds. I never used the word species in reference to kinds.

However, you did use the words phylum and kingdom to refer to kinds even though those two don't appear in the Bible with reference to organizing life.

Kinds refer to living things that are a set thing that comes from the same kind of thing that came before. I referred to Kingdom, to domains, to phyla to show that there are indeed living things that are a set thing that come from life forms that are set and come before.

Why does kind refer to kingdom, phyla, or doman? Why those? Why not family or order or genus? What criteria are you using to determine if two species belong to the same kind?

And I have shown evidence that all life is part of a set in that all life shares a universal common ancestor. I have also shown that the evidence is consistent with the natural process of evolution as the mechanism by which biodiversity was created from this single universal common ancestor.
 
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Loudmouth

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That is true, however, that doesn't change the consensus that the Big Bang has actual evidence and is believed to be most probable to most scientists. It is also the consensus that the universe had a beginning.

What evidence do you have that a deity is the one who started it?

Take it up with the scientific studies, I used verified, testable studies to provide evidence for the predictions the Bible made.

Where does the Bible predict that life will fall into a nested hierarchy?

False. If there was evidence that the universe did not have a beginning it would falsify the Bible.

What evidence do you have that a deity was responsible for the beginning of the universe?

What morphologocial feature or DNA marker shared between species would falsify design?

The materialist double standard once again, you claim that you will only consider those things possible that can be proven by scientific methodology, for instance, the Big Bang. However, you throw that out if it is used in the Theists argument. You want your cake and to eat it too.

Until you present evidence that a deity was responsible for the beginning of the Universe you really don't have an argument to begin with.

For example, it is said that Thor is in the clouds creating thunder. We can scientifically show that thunder comes from clouds. Is this scientific evidence for Thor?

No, that is false. I have shown you evidence that supports the claim that the universe is designed.

Where?

The evidence supports that there is something that holds the universe together that is non-detectable. This supports the claim that God does indeed hold the universe together.

That is an argument from ignorance which is a logical fallacy.

It is equally evident that there is nothing in the materialist world view that can show that this is possible with only a materialistic processes. I am not trying to show a gap that God fills, although it can be shown to be so, it is a point in my claim that the Christian worldview is more consistent with the reality of our universe than is the materialistic one.

A god of the gaps is exactly what you are arguing for.

What you continually misunderstand is that I am not trying to claim there is a gap in the knowledge but a complete disconnect to it. It is not possible in the materialistic worldview to provide evidence for the phenomenon of this non-material aspect of the universe.

What non-material aspect? Evidence please.
 
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Oncedeceived

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I am claiming that the evidence is exactly what we would expect to see from the natural process of evolution.

There is no evidence for many of the things you say occurred through that process.


The evidence for those living forms are the fossils they left.

There were no fossils! That is my point. In the Cambrian explosion all present Phyla were present but no precursors for them.



I do have that evidence. It is the nested hierarchy. It is the exact pattern of shared and derived features that we would expect to see from the natural process of evolution. This is the evidence demonstrating that all life evolved from a common ancestor. How each fossil fits into that phylogeny is difficult to determine since fossils do not come with DNA. However, no fossil deviates from the pattern of a nested hierarchy. Each and every fossil supports the conclusion that life evolved naturally through the process of evolution.

There are fossils missing, very critical fossils missing. Which is the way it is, but they still are missing. The human fossil collection is one of the best we have and that still has large areas that continue to shift and lack fossil support.

Let me show you evolution in process:

corvette


Ok my photo insert is not working it seems. :(

1953 - 1962 Chevrolet Corvette

Look at what evolution looks like by intelligent design.




Men claimed that, and they could already see that there was abundant life in the sea. Not really that hard to make a post-diction.

It is listed in a certain order. There is no reason why it would be listed as taking place before land animals.
 
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Oncedeceived

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However, you did use the words phylum and kingdom to refer to kinds even though those two don't appear in the Bible with reference to organizing life.

Very true. See the quote below. I said: Kinds refer to living things that are a set thing that comes from the same kind of thing that came before. I referred to Kingdom, to domains, to phyla to show that there are indeed living things that are a set thing that come from life forms that are set and come before. The words do not appear in the Bible anymore than species does, but species was not something that I referred to in my claim. You switched what I actually said to species so that you could use a straw man against my argument.



Why does kind refer to kingdom, phyla, or doman? Why those? Why not family or order or genus? What criteria are you using to determine if two species belong to the same kind?
The point is that there are separate life forms that remain separate. There are life forms that come before other life forms that are the same kind of life form. That is the whole point.

And I have shown evidence that all life is part of a set in that all life shares a universal common ancestor. I have also shown that the evidence is consistent with the natural process of evolution as the mechanism by which biodiversity was created from this single universal common ancestor.
And you do so much of the time without evidence for your core belief. You also can not show that life shares a universal common ancestor. You can support that belief with evidence but the evidence is not there for a universal common ancestor.

You have not shown that all the evidence is consistent with natural processes as you have not given me material empirical evidence for the universal common ancestor. You have given me supportive evidence for such a possibility but there is no evidence of the universal common ancestor itself.
 
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Loudmouth

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Very true. See the quote below. I said: Kinds refer to living things that are a set thing that comes from the same kind of thing that came before. I referred to Kingdom, to domains, to phyla to show that there are indeed living things that are a set thing that come from life forms that are set and come before.

Just as we would expect to see if life came about by the natural process of evolution. Again, this goes back to the forensic science analogy I have been using. You keep suggesting that if design is true then it should look exactly like a natural process other than design occurred. This doesn't make any sense.

The point is that there are separate life forms that remain separate. There are life forms that come before other life forms that are the same kind of life form. That is the whole point.

So which are they? Separate or the same kind of life? Are chihuahuas and great danes separate because they do not interbreed, or are they the same kind? What criteria do you use to determine if two species are separate or the same kind?

You also can not show that life shares a universal common ancestor.

I most certainly can:

29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: Part 1

You have not shown that all the evidence is consistent with natural processes . . .

Then show me one piece of evidence that is not. Show me a single species that uses completely different codons. Show me a species with teats and feathers. Show me a primate that isn't a mammal.

You have given me supportive evidence for such a possibility but there is no evidence of the universal common ancestor itself.

Supportive evidence is evidence.
 
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Oncedeceived

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What evidence do you have that a deity is the one who started it?

I am arguing for the Christian God and creation according to the Christian Bible. If you wish to argue the creation narratives of other religions then you probably are in the wrong place. ;)


Where does the Bible predict that life will fall into a nested hierarchy?
I have given you this over and over again. It is consistent with the Christian narrative of creation due to living forms (kinds) coming after separate kinds of the same kind. This brings about what man calls the nested hierarchy.


What evidence do you have that a deity was responsible for the beginning of the universe?
God said that He created the universe...a beginning. It has been shown that the universe had a beginning according to tested verifiable evidence of such. There is more evidence according to tested verifiable evidence of the universe being "designed" or fine tuned for life and not only life but intelligent life in the form of man. There are features in the universe that support the Christian God's having created the universe.

What morphologocial feature or DNA marker shared between species would falsify design?
Well let me put it this way, is it more reasonable and logical that life formed and created by an intelligent being would share commonality?

We see that with Darwin life was to evolve slowly with step by step processes that were inheritable by reproduction resulting in common decent. However, as we look farther into the evolution of such life forms, we find that it wasn't always slow, it could in fact speed up and the long time periods once needed to evolve were lessened to a great degree. Punctuated Equilibrium was born. Then low and behold, we find that evolution is not just by reproduction and heredity. We find that creatures unrelated can have the same feature without being aided by reproduction within species...Convergent evolution is born. Then we find that not only could creatures evolve the same features at the same time independently, we find that creatures could even evolve without the aid of traditional reproduction all together..horizontal evolution is born.

The point of all that above is to show that we are coming behind God and learning how it was all done. The nest hierarchy is what man has classified the living forms that were created through the ages. We learn more and more that is isn't as simple as small steps with long periods of time.



Until you present evidence that a deity was responsible for the beginning of the Universe you really don't have an argument to begin with.
Well the same could be said to you. Until you present a common universal ancestor that is responsible for the nested hierarchy we don't have an argument to begin with.

For example, it is said that Thor is in the clouds creating thunder. We can scientifically show that thunder comes from clouds. Is this scientific evidence for Thor?
It could support that premise. I don't know if you would find anyone that believes that Thor is creating thunder, but if there were it would be supportive of their claim. Does it prove it...no. It doesn't supply proof that Thor indeed is creating thunder but it does support it. We would then have to move on and see what else would support Thor.



In the thread when speaking to Davian.



That is an argument from ignorance which is a logical fallacy.

That would be true if I were claiming you were lacking evidence due to not knowing, I am using it as evidence to support my argument.


A god of the gaps is exactly what you are arguing for.

That is simply not true. I am not saying that the gaps in your knowledge is filled with God (although I might believe that might be the case) I am claiming that in your empirical position, there are elements that are not consistent in that position.



What non-material aspect? Evidence please.

I have given them. Laws of logic, laws of physics, laws of mathematics...
 
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Loudmouth

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There is no evidence for many of the things you say occurred through that process.

All of the evidence we have is consistent with the natural process of evolution. Every fossil we have fits the nested hierarchy. Nowhere do we find a fossil with derived mammalian features and feather impressions, as one example. Nowhere do we find modern mammalian species in Cambrian strata.

Again, you are arguing that design should look exactly like evolution occurred. That makes zero sense.

There were no fossils! That is my point. In the Cambrian explosion all present Phyla were present but no precursors for them.

So you have searched all of the geologic record across the whole planet and have found zero precursors? Really? Also, if evolution is true then we should find the ancestors to living species in the Cambrian. That's the whole point. Finding all of the phyla in the Cambrian is exactly what we should see if evolution is true since the ancestors of all life were there in the Cambrian.

Even more, there are no fossils of flatworms anywhere in the fossil record. Does this mean that flatworms were created yesterday?

So once again you are saying that if life was designed it should appear as if life was produced through an entirely different and natural process. That doesn't make sense.

There are fossils missing, very critical fossils missing.

For every transitional fossil that is found you will proclaim that there are now two more critical fossils, one on either side of the newly found fossil. We know how this game is played.

At the end of the day, EVERY fossil we have found is consistent with evolution. ALL of the fossil evidence indicates that life evolved. ALL of the fossils fall into a nested hierarchy that the theory of evolution predicts.

Let me show you evolution in process:

corvette


Ok my photo insert is not working it seems. :(

1953 - 1962 Chevrolet Corvette

Look at what evolution looks like by intelligent design.

Corvettes do not fall into a nested hierarchy, or were you unaware of that? Once again, you are making my point for me. Cars do not fall into a nested hierarchy just as we would expect from a design process. This is why a nested hierarchy is evidence for evolution and evidence against design.
 
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Cheeky Monkey

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Ok, you claim that you only believe in the evidence that natural evolution is all there is and that it is in the evidence in which you believe this. However, you can not claim there is evidence for all the living forms before the Cambrian Explosion. Materialistically, you have no evidence that life evolved from the previous life forms because you have no evidence of those life forms necessary for the ones you do see in the Cambrian Explosion. There is no evidence for those life forms. So your empirical worldview is refuted.

Mine on the other hand is reinforced. God claimed that there would be life forms found in abundance in the sea. And God said: 'Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let fowl fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.'

Actually there's a good amount of molecular evidence for deep divergence of animals prior to the Cambrian.
 
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Loudmouth

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I have given you this over and over again. It is consistent with the Christian narrative of creation due to living forms (kinds) coming after separate kinds of the same kind. This brings about what man calls the nested hierarchy.

So the Christian narrative says that all life came about through the natural process of evolution from a single universal common ancestor?

Or are you once again using the same failed argument that separate creations will just appear to have evolved, just like a crime scene only appears as if the suspect left fingerprints and DNA.

God said that He created the universe...a beginning. It has been shown that the universe had a beginning according to tested verifiable evidence of such.

But what evidence do you have to back the claim that God was responsible for that beginning?

There is more evidence according to tested verifiable evidence of the universe being "designed" or fine tuned for life and not only life but intelligent life in the form of man. There are features in the universe that support the Christian God's having created the universe.

Where is this evidence?

Well let me put it this way, is it more reasonable and logical that life formed and created by an intelligent being would share commonality?

No, it is entirely unreasonable that life would fall into a nested hierarchy if different kinds were created separately. It is the most unreasonable argument there is.

We see that with Darwin life was to evolve slowly with step by step processes that were inheritable by reproduction resulting in common decent.

Why can't life evolve at different tempos other than slow?

Punctuated Equilibrium was born. Then low and behold, we find that evolution is not just by reproduction and heredity. We find that creatures unrelated can have the same feature without being aided by reproduction within species...Convergent evolution is born.

Convergent evolution is one of the best pieces of evidence against design that there is. Are you sure you want to go down that road? We could start with the duck bill from the bird species and the duck bill from the mammal species. According to you, same designer so we should have the same design. Is that true? Nope.

Bird bill:
SkullDuckWoodTop01.jpg


Platypus bill:

skulla.jpg


Those two bills couldn't be less alike. In fact, the platypus bill even has cusped cheek teeth early in development, just like other mammals.

So why the completely different skeletal designs for what is superficially the same bill? This, and thousands of other examples, is exactly why convergent evolution falsifies the "common designer" argument. Designs stay within evolutionary lineages even when they are superficially similar. Only evolution is able to explain this. Design just can't do it.

Then we find that not only could creatures evolve the same features at the same time independently, we find that creatures could even evolve without the aid of traditional reproduction all together..horizontal evolution is born.

Really? So the platypus and the duck evolved the same feature through horizontal evolution? Oh, that's right . . . they didn't. Perhaps you should learn some biology before making such grandiose claims.

The point of all that above is to show that we are coming behind God and learning how it was all done.

Just as a forensic scientist comes in behind God to find the fingerprints he plants at crime scenes?

The nest hierarchy is what man has classified the living forms that were created through the ages.

It is exactly the pattern we should see if evolution occurred, not design.

Well the same could be said to you. Until you present a common universal ancestor that is responsible for the nested hierarchy we don't have an argument to begin with.

I already have the observed mechanisms. I have the evidence. You don't. No one has ever seen a supernatural deity creating anything. However, we do see the mechanisms of evolution producing a nested hierarchy.

It could support that premise. I don't know if you would find anyone that believes that Thor is creating thunder, but if there were it would be supportive of their claim. Does it prove it...no. It doesn't supply proof that Thor indeed is creating thunder but it does support it. We would then have to move on and see what else would support Thor.

Do you find that to be a compelling argument for the existence of Thor?

I contend that the cereal Lucky Charms is evidence for Leprechauns. Are you further convinced by this argument?
 
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Oncedeceived

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All of the evidence we have is consistent with the natural process of evolution. Every fossil we have fits the nested hierarchy. Nowhere do we find a fossil with derived mammalian features and feather impressions, as one example. Nowhere do we find modern mammalian species in Cambrian strata.

Every fossil fits into the nested hierarchy but its position is sometimes difficult. It is somewhat subjective in nature as well. New molecular data suggests that animal relationships are sometimes very different than what where compiled by older evaluations of morphology.

Considering that fossils are incomplete in many cases and can never have DNA analysis we can not be sure of their common ancestry to others and the fact that there are discrepancies in animal classification by morphology vs. DNA analysis we can see that it may not be as cut and dried as one might think. That does not mean it will throw the whole nested hierarchy out, it will just exemplify the past inaccuracy in some cases and will rearrange the system to accommodate the new findings.


Again, you are arguing that design should look exactly like evolution occurred. That makes zero sense.


Evolution did occur! I have never claimed it didn't. However, we are looking (if I am correct) back at creation. God designed living organisms with the ability to adapt and evolve to the circumstances they found themselves in, just like we see today.


So you have searched all of the geologic record across the whole planet and have found zero precursors? Really? Also, if evolution is true then we should find the ancestors to living species in the Cambrian. That's the whole point. Finding all of the phyla in the Cambrian is exactly what we should see if evolution is true since the ancestors of all life were there in the Cambrian.

There are no fossil precursors for most of the Cambrian fossils presently. It is necessary for common ancestors prior to the Cambrian fossils. However, that is not the case. If ToE is true we should have numerous lifeforms leading up to the complex life forms found in the Cambrian but that is not what we find and so it is a failed prediction of ToE so far. The timing on the appearance is also lightening fast in accordance with what we see today.

Even more, there are no fossils of flatworms anywhere in the fossil record. Does this mean that flatworms were created yesterday?

It does mean that something so common is not found in the fossil record, how does that compare then with other less common fossils and life forms of all kinds? How can we know what we are missing is more important than what we have?
So once again you are saying that if life was designed it should appear as if life was produced through an entirely different and natural process. That doesn't make sense.

Lets make an analogy here: The pyramids in Egypt. We are still trying to figure out how these were constructed. These were made with human intelligence and yet the technology we know they had just doesn't add up. If something that was so much more recent, made with intelligent design is hard to figure out, how do you suppose the creation of the universe is? We learn by taking the things we know and filtering them through our own understanding and knowledge. ToE is man's understanding of the natural world. Man has made connections and understands how the process works, but they also make their own interpretations on that knowledge.

So like the way we try to piece together information on the formation of the Great Pyramids, we still do not know how it was done. We are intelligent because we come from intelligence.

Why would God make it look like evolution:
1. Evolution was a process in which God designed into His life forms.
2. Why would it look "natural"? God knows intelligence. He knows that humans would need to KNOW. We would be bored to just have life without anything to learn. IF it wasn't the way it is, what would we do with ourselves? If we were like hamsters in a cage we would go insane. But, if God supplies life and intelligence, he supplies the natural world for us to explore and learn. IF there were no pattern or processes for the universe and it just was then it would not allow for our intelligence to grow.

For every transitional fossil that is found you will proclaim that there are now two more critical fossils, one on either side of the newly found fossil. We know how this game is played.

In this case we are talking about lack of fossil evidence all together for most of the cambrian life forms if not all.

At the end of the day, EVERY fossil we have found is consistent with evolution. ALL of the fossil evidence indicates that life evolved. ALL of the fossils fall into a nested hierarchy that the theory of evolution predicts.

No, in fact, the human linage continues to shift and the nested placement changes. That is why, no matter what is found, the system can be used to reflect the change.



Corvettes do not fall into a nested hierarchy, or were you unaware of that? Once again, you are making my point for me. Cars do not fall into a nested hierarchy just as we would expect from a design process. This is why a nested hierarchy is evidence for evolution and evidence against design.

I wasn't showing nested hierarchy but the design itself. What would preclude us from nesting the car design into a nested hierarchy on form and structural design?
 
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Loudmouth

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Every fossil fits into the nested hierarchy but its position is sometimes difficult. It is somewhat subjective in nature as well. New molecular data suggests that animal relationships are sometimes very different than what where compiled by older evaluations of morphology.

If evolution is not true then we should see tons and tons of violations of the nested hierarchy, and they should be so obvious as to be unavoidable. We don't see that.

Considering that fossils are incomplete in many cases and can never have DNA analysis we can not be sure of their common ancestry to others and the fact that there are discrepancies in animal classification by morphology vs. DNA analysis we can see that it may not be as cut and dried as one might think. That does not mean it will throw the whole nested hierarchy out, it will just exemplify the past inaccuracy in some cases and will rearrange the system to accommodate the new findings.

I see a lot of claims, but no studies to back it up.

Evolution did occur!

Are you saying that all life evolved from a single, universal common ancestor. If not, then you are not agreeing with me. Quit pretending that you are agreeing with me.

God designed living organisms with the ability to adapt and evolve to the circumstances they found themselves in, just like we see today.

Why does this necessitate a nested hierarchy? Why couldn't God create an animal with teats and feathers that has the ability to adapt and evolve in the circumstances they find themselves in? Are you saying God is incapable of doing this?

There are no fossil precursors for most of the Cambrian fossils presently.

Did you search the entire fossil record, and then make sure that all specieds that have ever existed were part of that fossil record? If not, your argument means nothing.

The DNA evidence is so overwhelmingly supportive of the theory of evolution that fossils are just icing on the cake. Your singular focus on fossils is very close minded and short sighted.

It is necessary for common ancestors prior to the Cambrian fossils.

It is not necessary that we should have found them after searching such a tiny, tiny fraction of the fossil record, nor is it necessary that these common ancestors ever fossilized to begin with. We are talking about the theory of evolution, not the theory of fossilization.

If ToE is true we should have numerous lifeforms leading up to the complex life forms found in the Cambrian . . .

You need to support this argument with evidence.

It does mean that something so common is not found in the fossil record, how does that compare then with other less common fossils and life forms of all kinds? How can we know what we are missing is more important than what we have?

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. That's what you need to understand.

Lets make an analogy here: The pyramids in Egypt. We are still trying to figure out how these were constructed. These were made with human intelligence and yet the technology we know they had just doesn't add up.

The pyramids do not fall into a nested hierarchy.

Why would God make it look like evolution:
1. Evolution was a process in which God designed into His life forms.
2. Why would it look "natural"? God knows intelligence. He knows that humans would need to KNOW. We would be bored to just have life without anything to learn. IF it wasn't the way it is, what would we do with ourselves? If we were like hamsters in a cage we would go insane. But, if God supplies life and intelligence, he supplies the natural world for us to explore and learn. IF there were no pattern or processes for the universe and it just was then it would not allow for our intelligence to grow.

The elements do not fall into a nested hierarchy. Minerals do not fall into a nested hierarchy. Planets do not fall into a nested hierarchy. Aren't we able to learn about these things? Why would separately created kinds need to fall into a nested hierarchy in order for us to learn abou them?

What other ludicrous reasons are you going to come up with?

In this case we are talking about lack of fossil evidence all together for most of the cambrian life forms if not all.

We have fossil evidence for Cambrian life forms. We have their fossils. What are you talking about?

No, in fact, the human linage continues to shift and the nested placement changes. That is why, no matter what is found, the system can be used to reflect the change.

Since when?

I wasn't showing nested hierarchy but the design itself. What would preclude us from nesting the car design into a nested hierarchy on form and structural design?

Design units are shared between car models, and this distribution of design features violates a nested hierarchy. Cars are not nested, just as we would expect from intelligent design. I can find the same tires on a Ford Focus and a Chevy Malibu, and yet find two different types of tires on two different Chevy Malibus. This is just one example, but there are literally millions that I could find. This isn't even getting into the vehicle transitionals where we have a half car/half airplane, half car/half boat, and a half airplane/half boat. We could also talk about such things as air bags that start in one car lineage, and then immediately migrate their way into all car lineages in a clear violation of a nested hierarchy.

Do you need more examples?
 
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Smidlee

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How each fossil fits into that phylogeny is difficult to determine since fossils do not come with DNA. However, no fossil deviates from the pattern of a nested hierarchy. Each and every fossil supports the conclusion that life evolved naturally through the process of evolution.
Of course no fossil deviates from the pattern of a nested hierarchy since fossil's interpretation are based on human opinion. Boobs doesn't fossilize well so how do they know to was a mammal? they guess at it (this bones look kind of like a mammal bone). Some where down the line according to evolution a reptile rebelled against the nested hierarchy and grow boobs and long hair. Thus nested hierarchy still make sense and even more so if they leave evolution out of it. nested hierarchy is mammal begot mammal but evolution states fish begot reptile begot Boobzilla ,etc.
 
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Cheeky Monkey

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Of course no fossil deviates from the pattern of a nested hierarchy since fossils are based on human opinion.

Fossils are based on human opinion??? You should try dropping one of these opinions on your toe. You might find that they're quite substantial.
 
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Loudmouth

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Of course no fossil deviates from the pattern of a nested hierarchy since fossil's interpretation are based on human opinion.

It isn't opinion, chief. It is a FACT that no fossil has three middle ear bones and feather impressions. You can try to run away from the facts all you want, but they aren't going anywhere.

Boobs doesn't fossilize well so how do they know to was a mammal?

Why don't we see a living species with boobs and feathers? Why don't we see an octopus with a backwards facing retina? Why don't we see a living bird species with three middle ear bones?

Some where down the line according to evolution a reptile rebelled against the nested hierarchy and grow boobs and long hair.

How is that rebellion agains the nested hierarchy? Do you even understand how cladistics works?

nested hierarchy is mammal begot mammal but evolution states fish begot reptile begot Boobzilla ,etc.

Acting like a fool isn't helping.
 
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Smidlee

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It isn't opinion, chief. It is a FACT that no fossil has three middle ear bones and feather impressions. You can try to run away from the facts all you want, but they aren't going anywhere.
According to what I read it very seldom fossils are together in one place. So there is a lot of interpretation goes into those fossils and put them together.


Why don't we see a living species with boobs and feathers? Why don't we see an octopus with a backwards facing retina? Why don't we see a living bird species with three middle ear bones?
Why? These why are after the facts. Why don't we see mammals with wings .... opps we already know bats exist. What you are doing is cherry picking based on what we already know. Why don't we see a fish with boobs ... oh that's right we do.


How is that rebellion agains the nested hierarchy? Do you even understand how cladistics works?
Of course naturalselectiondidit.
 
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Loudmouth

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According to what I read it very seldom fossils are together in one place. So there is a lot of interpretation goes into those fossils and put them together.

And where have you shown that this interpretation is wrong?


Why? These why are after the facts. Why don't we see mammals with wings .... opps we already know bats exist.

We also know that the wings of bats are nothing like the wings of birds, insects, or fish. The wings of the bat are a lineage specific adaptation, just as the theory of evolution predicts.

What you are doing is cherry picking based on what we already know.

We already know that life falls into the nested hierarchy predicted by the theory of evolution. We keep finding new living species, btw. We are also finding new fossil species. All of them keep matching these predictions. All of them. All of the facts support the theory of evolution.

Of course naturalselectiondidit.

We observe natural selection occuring, unlike deities magically poofing species into being.
 
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Cheeky Monkey

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I think you smart enough to know I referring to their interpretation.

So interpretations are interpretations? How insightful. And the real solid fossils have real solid features which fit the real measurable pattern of a nested hierarchy. You can check the direct observation of solid physical evidence if you like.
 
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