Whose Vengeance is it Anyway?

CatRandy

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When David slew Goliath, God gave him wisdom and the skills to do so.
Many things were allowed under the old covenant that are no longer permissible.
When Jesus returns with the saints, violent actions will ensue resulting in the deaths of many.
11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war.
12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself.
13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.
14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations.
Rev 19:11-15
We return with Christ, however the battle is his, he strikes down the nations.
Why did the disciples carry swords with them? I'm sure it wasn't for decoration.
That would take far to long to cover, however several people have discussed that issue. If you're interested, I believe that John Howard Yoder covered that issue well, I'd recommend reading what he has to say. However, for a short synopsis of his response, that was used as a means of proving that he fulfilled the prophecy that he would be numbered with the transgressors.
36 He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.
37 It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.”
Lk 22:36-37

Also note what Jesus says about this episode in Mark:
52 “Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.
 
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SteveIndy

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I don't rule out option #1 so that is a red herring argument. In fact, non-violence should be the first response. At other times, unfortunately self-defense through violence may be the only remaining option.
2. It's called situation awareness; something you would be acutely cognizant of, if you were properly trained.
3. No one can can guarantee that they would never miss. Does the possibility of missing one's target override the probability that many lives might otherwise be saved? I think not.

The N.T. instructs us to not make provision for the flesh. When you carry a gun or a knife for self-defense is that making provision for the flesh? Also, we are instructed to pick up our own cross and to follow Jesus. Where in all of your argument are you obeying these commands? Your flesh and your reason are dictating your response and they tell you to prepare for such occurrences in advance by arming yourself. This is not obeying Jesus, it is following the world's way of doing things. The way of the Kingdom is not the same and can even confuse the natural man.
 
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Oldmantook

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The N.T. instructs us to not make provision for the flesh. When you carry a gun or a knife for self-defense is that making provision for the flesh? Also, we are instructed to pick up our own cross and to follow Jesus. Where in all of your argument are you obeying these commands? Your flesh and your reason are dictating your response and they tell you to prepare for such occurrences in advance by arming yourself. This is not obeying Jesus, it is following the world's way of doing things. The way of the Kingdom is not the same and can even confuse the natural man.
Contrary to your unfounded claim, carrying a weapon is not making provision for the flesh. Show me just one scripture in he whole Bible where such a verse exists. You will not find it. Lying, theft, covetousness, fornication, adultery, murder, worshipping other Gods, etc. are sins. I don't see carrying a weapon listed as sin. You are adding to God's word - which is a risky thing to do.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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The N.T. instructs us to not make provision for the flesh. When you carry a gun or a knife for self-defense is that making provision for the flesh? Also, we are instructed to pick up our own cross and to follow Jesus. Where in all of your argument are you obeying these commands? Your flesh and your reason are dictating your response and they tell you to prepare for such occurrences in advance by arming yourself. This is not obeying Jesus, it is following the world's way of doing things. The way of the Kingdom is not the same and can even confuse the natural man.
Perhaps to clarify --- or make it worse ?
Is it okay in your way of thinking for believers to hunt for food ?
(I agree NOT to kill in self defense - always be "harmless as doves" as Jesus Says directly) ....
 
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SteveIndy

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Perhaps to clarify --- or make it worse ?
Is it okay in your way of thinking for believers to hunt for food ?
(I agree NOT to kill in self defense - always be "harmless as doves" as Jesus Says directly) ....

When we read Scripture most questions will be answered by simply looking at the context of what is being said. I quoted Romans 13:14 and assumed that Christians would know what was being talked about. "Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. Instead, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the desires of the flesh." Paul elsewhere says, "I become all things to all men." Did he literally mean that he becomes all things? No! Paul would not become a male prostitute to win other male prostitutes to the Lord. If a "Christian" carries a gun he is obeying the flesh's desire of self-preservation by taking the life of another individual against the teachings of Jesus. By all means, if you are hungry hunt for food, and yes, it is okay to also have a spare tire in your trunk.
 
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SteveIndy

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Pacifism is incompatible with Luke 22 and Romans 13.

Luke 22:36 if taken by itself seems to promote self-defense but you must read the rest of the passage. Jesus is not telling His Apostles to kill if necessary He is telling them that a prophecy (Isa. 53:12) which was as yet unfulfilled, i.e. "He was numbered with the transgressors." When Jesus was told that by His disciples that they had "two" swords Jesus replied that two was enough, enough for what? If they were all being sent out they would each need a sword wouldn't they, not just two? The purpose of the swords was to fulfill the prophecy as became obvious in the very next verses when Peter used the sword. Jesus did not applaud Peter's use but rather rebuked him. At this point, prophecy was fulfilled and we never hear of swords again.

Romans 13 is not giving permission for followers of Jesus to use the sword. Paul is here only describing the purpose and creator of Government. God created governments to maintain a semblance of peace in the world ruled by world leaders and not by believers. It is God who raises up and brings down governments according to His will and not according to the Church's desire for a Christian government. We have no model in the first three hundred years of the Church for Christians running the government. until Constantine in the 4th century. Christians should not vote or be involved in government at any level, our citizenship is in Heaven and our loyalty is to our King and Him only; we cannot serve two kings.

Non-resistance or pacifism (if that is what you want to call it) is the pattern of Christ, His Apostles, and the Church of the first three hundred years, and it is the pattern for us today. Nothing has changed except men's hearts.
 
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Newtheran

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Luke 22:36 is a generalized command to all believers in all times given in light of the fact that Jesus no longer walked with his disciples on earth. He says as much. The two swords were applicable only for the specific circumstance of the events prior to the crucifixion. As far as pacifism, not only is it incompatible with Luke and Romans, it is incompatible with a picture of a returning savior with an army of saints that makes war against the nations.
 
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Dave L

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Luke 22:36 is a generalized command to all believers in all times given in light of the fact that Jesus no longer walked with his disciples on earth. He says as much. The two swords were applicable only for the specific circumstance of the events prior to the crucifixion. As far as pacifism, not only is it incompatible with Luke and Romans, it is incompatible with a picture of a returning savior with an army of saints that makes war against the nations.
Can you provide an example from the NT where Christians used violence to defend themselves? Jesus rebuked Peter for doing so of course.
 
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SteveIndy

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Luke 22:36 is a generalized command to all believers in all times given in light of the fact that Jesus no longer walked with his disciples on earth. He says as much. The two swords were applicable only for the specific circumstance of the events prior to the crucifixion. As far as pacifism, not only is it incompatible with Luke and Romans, it is incompatible with a picture of a returning savior with an army of saints that makes war against the nations.

So, you are saying that this passage is giving permission to kill if you find it necessary? You are saying that the promise of Jesus to send the Holy Spirit in His place is bogus? You Are saying that with Jesus gone we are now allowed to do what we were not allowed to do while He was here? You are typical of believers today, you refuse to believe, even when shown the meaning from the text. As far as the returning Jesus as the Lion of the tribe of Judah you are correct, He returns to wage war against unbelievers. But, again you misunderstand plain scripture. When Jesus came the first time He came as a “Lamb” and not a Lion. The Lamb is the model we are commanded to follow. Jesus gave His life without resistance, like a Lamb, and we are to follow His example as His disciples did and as the primitive Church did for three hundred years. Either you are wrong or Jesus and His disciples are wrong; who do you think is wrong?
 
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