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Whose Resurrection Doctrine should we believe?

Zao is life

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I accept your overall point. I removed "your game is over" phrase. It was not needed.

I do not apologize for challenging the misrepresentations as they have been going on for years and he refuses to acknowledge our explanations or change. Until he addresses that, I will continue to confront those misrepresentations when they appear. That is only right. Truth matters. Others are watching on. Jesus did that repeatedly, and so did the prophets and apostles.

I am close to Amils on this board and I know they privately do not appreciate him and Timothfly constantly misrepresenting our position despite knowing the reality. Granted, that is their choice, but it is not right.
All I know is - and all I want to know is - both yourself and David (and SJ) are genuine believers in Jesus who both genuinely believe in your eschatological positions. Were it not the case, I would have picked it up. And you're @Spiritual Jew changed to: all genuine people. I've picked that up too.

Sometimes it's just better not to demand an apology. David hasn't misrepresented you personally, he's misrepresented Amillennialism and griped about Amils "not being able to see where they're wrong" (I'm putting what David has said into my own words).

Amillennilaism and Premillennialism and Preterism and Partial Preterism should never be elevated to the status you and David are affording two of those in the list that you and David have elevated them to by arguing with one another and demanding an apology. @Spiritual Jew and SG, wear David's shoes.

@DavidPT, wear SJ and SG's shoes. I genuinely believe that If you don't drop this argument it will have turned into a game - a dangerous game that can get beyond repair.

Lecture over. Hypocrite signing off.
 
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sovereigngrace

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All I know is - and all I want to know is - both yourself and David (and SJ) are genuine believers in Jesus who both genuinely believe in your eschatological positions. Were it not the case, I would have picked it up. And you're @Spiritual Jew changed to: all genuine people. I've picked that up too.

Sometimes it's just better not to demand an apology. David hasn't misrepresented you personally, he's misrepresented Amillennialism and griped about Amils "not being able to see where they're wrong" (I'm putting what David has said into my own words).

Amillennilaism and Premillennialism and Preterism and Partial Preterism should never be elevated to the status you and David are affording two of those in the list that you and David have elevated them to by arguing with one another and demanding an apology. @Spiritual Jew and SG, wear David's shoes.

@DavidPT, wear SJ and SG's shoes. I genuinely believe that If you don't drop this argument it will have turned into a game - a dangerous game that can get beyond repair.

Lecture over. Hypocrite signing off.

I totally agree.

Read back a few posts. I never asked or do i desire an apology. I just asked that he stop deliberately misrepresenting Amil, after being corrected countless times.

I have no difficulty with someone disagreeing with Amil. Iron sharpens iron.
 
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Zao is life

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I totally agree.

Read back a few posts. I never asked or do i desire an apology. I just asked that he stop deliberately misrepresenting Amil, after being corrected countless times.

I have no difficulty someone disagreeing with Amil. Iron sharpens iron.
That's why the second part of your handle is grace :oldthumbsup:
 
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DavidPT

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I totally agree.

Read back a few posts. I never asked or do i desire an apology. I just asked that he stop deliberately misrepresenting Amil, after being corrected countless times.

I have no difficulty someone disagreeing with Amil. Iron sharpens iron.

Story of my life. No one ever takes my side. Except for maybe Keras. So I guess I should at least be thankful there is at least one person around here who can see that I'm being falsely accused of things that I'm not doing.

We need to be done with this so present some examples where I deliberately misrepresented Amil. I want to examine exactly how I supposedly did that.

For example. I have seen others, because Amils don't take the first resurrection to be meaning the bodily resurrection of the saints, that this then means they are doing what the following verse records.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

That would be a perfect example of misrepresenting Amil. When have I ever done anything even remotely like that? I don't nor ever have applied that verse to Amils because of the way they interpret the first resurrection, because to do so would mean I'm deliberately misrepresenting Amil, thus that being deceitful on my part.

For example, if JWs believe Jesus is a created angel but that I don't, and that I instead believe He is God, explain to me how, if debating with them, that I can misrepresent their view and why I would even want to or need to? Why would I want or need to do that? In order to make it appear I have won the debate or something? What? What would be the reason?
 
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DavidPT

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You continue to insist that Satan can't wage war against anyone while in the pit and, yet, you have no explanation whatsoever for why Satan is able to make war against the saints without the beast for almost 2,000 years so far. Why would he have any need for the beast to help make war with the saints in the future when he has already supposedly been doing it himself without the beast for almost 2,000 years?

My reasoning is based on what is recorded in Revelation 13 and Revelation 17. In Revelation 17, at the time of John seeing the visions, he indicated the beast is not, where I take that to mean the beast is in the pit. Then in Revelation 13 we see satan giving the beast it's power and it's seat. This to me means satan can't be in the pit at the time nor would the beast be in the pit either. But Amils have satan in the pit for the past 2000 years. Amils, such as you, have the beast ascending from the pit when satan ascends from it after the thousand years. But that disagrees with Revelation 20:4 and the saints that are martyred because of this same beast, because they refused to worship it. The beast would have to be active and not in the pit if one can be martyred for refusing to worship it. This wouldn't be happening when the beast is not, meaning to me when it's in the pit.

As long as you believe that Satan's binding results in him being completely incapacitated, you're just not going to get it. His binding and him being cast out of heaven are directly related. Why would he have been kicked out of heaven but not bound at that time? I don't believe that makes any sense. And you seem to continue to forget that it says he was bound from deceiving the nations (we obviously disagree on what that means) and not bound from making war with the church.

Because in my mind if one is depicted bound with a chain, then cast into a pit, then the pit locked up, that equals completely incapacitated. Let me provide a passage from the OT that demonstrates that that this is exactly what it adds up to---completely incapacitated.

Jeremiah 38:6 Then took they Jeremiah, and cast him into the dungeon of Malchiah the son of Hammelech, that was in the court of the prison: and they let down Jeremiah with cords. And in the dungeon there was no water, but mire: so Jeremiah sunk in the mire.

This is a real world example. Why would Revelation 20 depict satan in a similar state, but that it wouldn't equal what it does here, completely incapacitated? satan is a spirit being---I get that. Spirit beings can't be detained or held anywhere? Does that mean when satan is cast into the LOF he won't be able to be detained there since he is a spirit being? Probably not, right?

The question is, is the bottomless pit a place? Why wouldn't it be? When is the last time anyone has seen locusts(not literal locusts, yet they are obviously something literal, maybe demons. demons are literal) roaming around all over the place tormenting men with their tails? Revelation 9 records that they emerge from the pit. Where are they at in the meantime if the pit is not literal?
 
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sovereigngrace

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We need to be done with this so present some examples where I deliberately misrepresented Amil. I want to examine exactly how I supposedly did that.

That is not hard to do. You recently wrongly said:

Amils never use both the OT and NT together to prove they are the correct position. They go by what the NT alone says, not by what the OT and the NT together says.

Is this accurate or false?

Apparently, in your mind, if one thing is not literal then neither is anything else that is involved.

Is this accurate or false? When have I ever said this?

I see that as a red flag myself, that one has to first be aware that Revelation 19-20 can be read in another manner other than chronologically, and that maybe not everyone might be aware of that, and that no one could possibly be aware of that via their own reading of the text, thus they have to first be influenced by outside sources.

Is this accurate or false?
 
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sovereigngrace

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in my mind if one is depicted bound with a chain, then cast into a pit, then the pit locked up, that equals completely incapacitated. Let me provide a passage from the OT that demonstrates that that this is exactly what it adds up to---completely incapacitated.

Jeremiah 38:6 Then took they Jeremiah, and cast him into the dungeon of Malchiah the son of Hammelech, that was in the court of the prison: and they let down Jeremiah with cords. And in the dungeon there was no water, but mire: so Jeremiah sunk in the mire.

This is a real world example. Why would Revelation 20 depict satan in a similar state, but that it wouldn't equal what it does here, completely incapacitated? satan is a spirit being---I get that. Spirit beings can't be detained or held anywhere? Does that mean when satan is cast into the LOF he won't be able to be detained there since he is a spirit being? Probably not, right?

The question is, is the bottomless pit a place? Why wouldn't it be? When is the last time anyone has seen locusts(not literal locusts, yet they are obviously something literal, maybe demons. demons are literal) roaming around all over the place tormenting men with their tails? Revelation 9 records that they emerge from the pit. Where are they at in the meantime if the pit is not literal?

Because we are looking at a symbolic portrayal in the most figurative setting in Scripture. This is apocalyptic language describing the spiritual restraint of Satan today allowing the enlightenment of the Gentiles. Why is that so difficult to grasp?

Let us nail this once-and-for-all.

Revelation 20 is not a literal physical depiction.

· Is Satan a literal snake (Revelation 12:9, 14, 15, 20:2)?
· Is Satan a literal dragon (Revelation 12:3,4, 7, 9, 13, 16, 17, 13:2, 4, 11, 16:13, 20:2)?

Of course not. We are looking at figurative language. This symbolism is presented to depict his vicious and subtle malevolence. It shows the danger of his presence and danger of his ability.

Do you believe we are looking at a literal metal chain? Is the abyss a literal physical prison? How can a wicked spirit be restrained by literal metal chains in a literal physical prison?

Imprisonment and chains are constantly used in Scripture to describe spiritual restraint. This is seen in how the Holy Spirit depicts the wicked. For example, Satan is presented in Scripture as imprisoning his followers and refusing to release them from his spiritual prison. The Gentiles are repeatedly depicted in the OT as imprisoned and being in chains. We see this is Lamentations 3:33-34, Psalm 68:6, 79:10-11, 102:19-20, 107:8-16, 146:7-8, Isaiah 14:12-17, 42:6-7, 49:8-9, 58:6-12, 60:1-3, 61:1 and 58:6-12.

So, were the unsaved Gentiles literal "prisoners" walking about in this world in literal physical "chains" confined to a literal physical "prison" before the cross?

Premillennialists have little difficulty accepting the spiritual reality that the wicked today are bound by spiritual chains of sin and are imprisoned by their own lusts in Satan’s prison and yet are able to freely operate physically on this earth. One wonders why they should then struggle with the concept of the spiritual binding of spiritual beings. Why would they dismiss the fact that the kingdom of darkness has been placed in such chains since the first advent?

Imprisonment and chains are constantly used in Scripture to describe spiritual restraint. This is seen in how the Holy Spirit depicts the wicked. For example, Satan is presented in Scripture as imprisoning his followers and refusing to release them from his spiritual prison.

OT evidence of the figurative usage of chains and prison

Psalms 79:10-11 declares, “Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is their God? let him be known among the heathen in our sight by the revenging of the blood of thy servants which is shed. Let the sighing of the prisoner come before thee; according to the greatness of thy power preserve thou those that are appointed to die.”

Were all the heathen literal prisoners? Of course not!

Did this indicate they were immobile? Did this mean they could not kill, steal and destroy? Of course not!

Psalms 102:19-20 says, “For he hath looked down from the height of his sanctuary; from heaven did the LORD behold the earth; To hear the groaning of the prisoner; to loose those that are appointed to death.”

Is the Psalmist talking about literal prisoners? Of course not!

Does this mean the wicked are unable to move freely on this earth, influence others and cause evil? Of course not.

Psalms 107:8-16 describes, “Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men! For he satisfieth the longing soul, and filleth the hungry soul with goodness. Such as sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, being bound in affliction and iron; Because they rebelled against the words of God, and contemned the counsel of the most High: Therefore he brought down their heart with labour; they fell down, and there was none to help. Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saved them out of their distresses. He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death, and brake their bands in sunder. Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men! For he hath broken the gates of brass, and cut the bars of iron in sunder.”

Were these chains literally iron? Of course not!

Does this mean the wicked are unable to move freely on this earth, influence others and cause evil? Of course not.

Psalms 146:7-8 declares, “The LORD looseth the prisoners: The LORD openeth the eyes of the blind: the LORD raiseth them that are bowed down: the LORD loveth the righteous.”

Are these literal prisoners or is it describing the wicked?

Does this mean the wicked are unable to move freely on this earth, influence others and cause evil? Of course not.

Lamentations 3:33-34 says, “For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men. To crush under his feet all the prisoners of the earth.”

Does Satan have all his devotees in a literal physical prison? Of course not!

Psalms 68:6 prophesied of those in darkness in the Old Testament: “he bringeth out those which are bound with chains: but the rebellious dwell in a dry land.”

Were the Gentiles (before the cross) curtailed by literal chains? Of course not!

Does this mean the wicked are unable to move freely on this earth, influence others and cause evil? Of course not.

Isaiah 14:12-17 tells us, “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer (helel or shining one), son of the morning (dawn)! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?”

Does Satan have all his devotees in a literal physical prison? Of course not!

Does this mean the wicked are unable to move freely on this earth, influence others and cause evil? Of course not.

Isaiah 42:6-7 says, "I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house."

Were the Gentiles (before the cross) held in a literal prison house? Of course not!

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Does this mean the wicked are unable to move freely on this earth, influence others and cause evil? Of course not.

Isaiah 49:8-9 says, “Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages; That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.”

Does Satan have all his devotees in a literal physical prison? Of course not!

Does this mean the wicked are unable to move freely on this earth, influence others and cause evil? Of course not.

Isaiah 58:6-12 asks, “Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh? Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward. Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity; And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday: And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not. And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.”

Were these chains literally iron? Of course not!

Does this mean the wicked are unable to move freely on this earth, influence others and cause evil? Of course not.

Isaiah 60:1-3 says, “Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.”

Were the Gentiles (before the cross) held in a literal prison house? Of course not!

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Isaiah 61:1 says, “The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound.”

Are those that Christ come to set free bound with physical chains? Of course not!

Does this mean the wicked are unable to move freely on this earth, influence others and cause evil? Of course not.

It is wrong to believe that Revelation 20 is a literal depiction describing the devil being physically chained, tossed into a physical abyss, and physically sealed so that he cannot deceive the nations anymore and yet still walk about this earth seeking whom he may devour. Amils don’t accept that this is physical language neither do they believe that spirits are physically chained and that they can be restrained by a literal prison. They believe that they are spiritually chained in a spiritual prison.
 
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Timtofly

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One wonders why they should then struggle with the concept of the spiritual binding of spiritual beings. Why would they dismiss the fact that the kingdom of darkness has been placed in such chains since the first advent?
That could be that Satan is spiritually bound since the Cross, but not based in Revelation 20. That is still a future event. Satan is still appearing day and night accusing the brethren for as long as there are still brethren alive on earth.

But the binding in the pit according to Revelation 20 is still a future binding no matter what it entails. Just like the opening of the pit in the 5th Trumpet is still a future event, and not in the past, no matter what the details are. It does not matter if highly symbolic or literal. Both events are still future and happen after the Second Coming.

The kingdom of darkness when it comes to angels that rebelled has been bound since the time of Adam and Eve. If you accept they are free to do as they please that is fine. Even I accept Satan is free to do as he pleases as long as it is God's permissive will.

During the Millennium, the symbolism indicates Satan has no ability whatsoever. All he can do is sit and think about his little season, after the 1,000 years have expired.
 
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sovereigngrace

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That could be that Satan is spiritually bound since the Cross, but not based in Revelation 20. That is still a future event. Satan is still appearing day and night accusing the brethren for as long as there are still brethren alive on earth.

That is simply not true!

In John 12:31-33 Christ predicted, shortly before He defeated the power of Satan at the cross, “now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die (John 12:31-33).

Here was the time of his casting down - after the cross. Here was the time of the unblinding of the nations (the Gentiles). Here Christ gloriously dethroned Satan from his previous, largely unchallenged, global earthly rule and his place of accusation in heaven. Satan’s movement, liberties and sway on earth and in heaven received a severe blow.

Revelation 12:5-11 places the defeat of Satan at the resurrection/ascension: "And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

Previous to Satan's eviction, God was Israel's God, not the Gentiles God. Satan ruled the nations. But through this casting out of Satan, after man's penalty had been paid in full, he no longer had anything to accuse the elect over. It was indeed finished! The powerful spread of the Gospel to the Gentiles lifting the deception that kept them bound. Satan was now bound. The boot was on the other foot. With the global expanse of the great commission the Gentiles now are without excuse. The ignorance is gone. The veil is lifted. The means by which God lifts deception is the preaching of the Word of God. This has now been successfully ongoing throughout the nations for 2000 years.

One of the main effects of Satan being evicted from heaven and being spiritual bound was that the nations would be enlightened. But another immediate effect was that dead believers were released from the captivity of Abraham’s bosom and ushered into the heavenly abode.

As He rose they rose. After all, He was defeating the grave on their behalf.

Ephesians 4:8 says, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive.

Hades had no more hold upon the Old Testament redeemed because the penalty had been paid for sin, and therefore death, Hades and Satan were stripped of their ugly power over them.

Since the cross, Christians never go to Hades. The following Scriptures tell us that death has been defeated. It has no hold over the believer. Jesus has defeated it. That is why the redeemed (dead or alive) rule and reign and function as priests and kings.

But the binding in the pit according to Revelation 20 is still a future binding no matter what it entails. Just like the opening of the pit in the 5th Trumpet is still a future event, and not in the past, no matter what the details are. It does not matter if highly symbolic or literal. Both events are still future and happen after the Second Coming.

The kingdom of darkness when it comes to angels that rebelled has been bound since the time of Adam and Eve. If you accept they are free to do as they please that is fine. Even I accept Satan is free to do as he pleases as long as it is God's permissive will.

During the Millennium, the symbolism indicates Satan has no ability whatsoever. All he can do is sit and think about his little season, after the 1,000 years have expired.

John is allowed to foresee the loosing of Satan and his minions from the abyss just before the second coming. The pit is opened in Rev 9:2-11, showing John who is actually there now and what is going on there. It says: "he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power ... And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon."

I believe Revelation 9 brings much insight to the equation. It shows demons and Abaddon/Apollyon located there currently. Amils hold this to refer to Satan, thus supporting their position on Rev 20. 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude v6 lend support to the Amil contention that demons are currently spiritually bound. Revelation 9 describes an abyss that is full of wicked spirits that are restrained, but will be released prior to the second coming for a short season. This is something many choose to overlook. The abyss is inhabited now with Satan's minions. They had a king over them (Abaddon / Apollyon), a ruler who marshalled their hosts. This has to be Satan – the only king in the kingdom of darkness.

The binding of Satan at the first advent and his casting into the abyss – a place of restraint – is paralleled with the demonic world and the beast experiencing the same. Satan and the beast are both so interconnected and interdependent on each other that they mirror each other in their experiences. The release of Satan at the end from the abyss restriction in Revelation 20:7 corresponds with demons rising from the abyss in Revelation 9:2-3 and the beast also rising from the abyss in Revelation 17:8.
 
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DavidPT

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I believe Revelation 9 brings much insight to the equation. It shows demons and Abaddon/Apollyon located there currently. Amils hold this to refer to Satan, thus supporting their position on Rev 20. 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude v6 lend support to the Amil contention that demons are currently spiritually bound. Revelation 9 describes an abyss that is full of wicked spirits that are restrained, but will be released prior to the second coming for a short season. This is something many choose to overlook. The abyss is inhabited now with Satan's minions. They had a king over them (Abaddon / Apollyon), a ruler who marshalled their hosts. This has to be Satan – the only king in the kingdom of darkness.

The binding of Satan at the first advent and his casting into the abyss – a place of restraint – is paralleled with the demonic world and the beast experiencing the same. Satan and the beast are both so interconnected and interdependent on each other that they mirror each other in their experiences. The release of Satan at the end from the abyss restriction in Revelation 20:7 corresponds with demons rising from the abyss in Revelation 9:2-3 and the beast also rising from the abyss in Revelation 17:8.

Most of what you say here makes good sense until one examines it a bit closer by comparing that with Revelation 20:4 and the saints martyred because they didn't worship the beast. Which beast? The same beast Revelation 13 is referring to, obviously. At the time of John receiving these visions though, the beast that is responsible for the martyrdom of the saints recorded in Revelation 20:4, he said it is not, meaning to me, but I can't speak for others, that it was in the pit at the time. And that it was to ascend out of the pit in the future.

which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands(Revelation 20:4)---this is meaning before satan is loosed, it is meaning before satan is even in the pit, meaning when they are initially martyred, and that this martyrdom happens because of this---and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit(Revelation 17:8).

How can you instead have it ascending out of the pit after the thousand years when Revelation 20:4 and Revelation 13 prove otherwise?
 
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sovereigngrace

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Most of what you say here makes good sense until one examines it a bit closer by comparing that with Revelation 20:4 and the saints martyred because they didn't worship the beast. Which beast? The same beast Revelation 13 is referring to, obviously. At the time of John receiving these visions though, the beast that is responsible for the martyrdom of the saints recorded in Revelation 20:4, he said it is not, meaning to me, but I can't speak for others, that it was in the pit at the time. And that it was to ascend out of the pit in the future.

which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands(Revelation 20:4)---this is meaning before satan is loosed, it is meaning before satan is even in the pit, meaning when they are initially martyred, and that this martyrdom happens because of this---and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit(Revelation 17:8).

How can you instead have it ascending out of the pit after the thousand years when Revelation 20:4 and Revelation 13 prove otherwise?

Please address your false charges against Amils above (#466) before we engage in anything else.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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My reasoning is based on what is recorded in Revelation 13 and Revelation 17. In Revelation 17, at the time of John seeing the visions, he indicated the beast is not, where I take that to mean the beast is in the pit. Then in Revelation 13 we see satan giving the beast it's power and it's seat. This to me means satan can't be in the pit at the time nor would the beast be in the pit either. But Amils have satan in the pit for the past 2000 years. Amils, such as you, have the beast ascending from the pit when satan ascends from it after the thousand years. But that disagrees with Revelation 20:4 and the saints that are martyred because of this same beast, because they refused to worship it. The beast would have to be active and not in the pit if one can be martyred for refusing to worship it. This wouldn't be happening when the beast is not, meaning to me when it's in the pit.
Everything you're saying is based on your assumption that being bound in the pit results in being incapacitated. I disagree with that understanding. We've already established this. You're not telling me anything here that I didn't already know.

What you have yet to explain is why the beast would be in the pit as of the time John wrote the book of Revelation (which we agree on because of Rev 17:8), but Satan was not. That tells me that you believe that Satan can do all the things that he does even without the beast. What then is the purpose of the beast from Satan's perspective? Why would Satan ever give the beast his power and authority if he can just do everything himself?

Revelation 12:17 has Satan making war with Christians. Revelation 13:5 has the beast making war with Christians after receiving power from Satan. What is the difference between Satan making war with Christians without the beast, as you think Rev 12:17 is saying, and Satan making war with Christians through the beast as Revelation 13:5 talks about? What is Satan able to do with the beast's help that he can't do without the beast's help? Anything? If not, then please tell me why Satan would give his power and authority to the beast if he doesn't need the beast's help?

Because in my mind if one is depicted bound with a chain, then cast into a pit, then the pit locked up, that equals completely incapacitated.
But it's not talking about a literal dragon being chained up with a literal chain. So, why would you interpret it that way? Yes, it does give the impression that Satan is fully bound from doing something (deceiving the nations). In the Amil view it means he's fully bound from preventing the gospel from going out into the world rather than fully bound from doing anything. His binding is being figuratively described, not literally, so there's no basis for thinking his binding means he is completely incapacitated.

To think that it's talking about Satan, a spirit being, being literally bound with a chain makes no sense. If you look at the text closely it's not even talking about Satan being bound with a chain. It's talking about a dragon being bound with a chain and the dragon symbolically represents Satan. If the dragon is symbolic then so is the chain and the pit/prison that the dragon is bound in. That's what you're not getting.

The dragon being bound with a chain in the pit/prison does represent something in reality, but it's not describing the reality as if Satan is literally bound and incapacitated. What he is bound from doing is deceiving the nations, whatever that means (we obviously disagree on that).

You take it to be saying that he is bound from not only deceiving the nations but also from persecuting Christians or from doing anything at all since you are not recognizing that it's figurative language and you take it to be saying that Satan himself is somehow bound with a chain rather than a dragon being bound with a chain which symbolizes Satan's binding.

Let me provide a passage from the OT that demonstrates that that this is exactly what it adds up to---completely incapacitated.

Jeremiah 38:6 Then took they Jeremiah, and cast him into the dungeon of Malchiah the son of Hammelech, that was in the court of the prison: and they let down Jeremiah with cords. And in the dungeon there was no water, but mire: so Jeremiah sunk in the mire.

This is a real world example. Why would Revelation 20 depict satan in a similar state, but that it wouldn't equal what it does here, completely incapacitated? satan is a spirit being---I get that. Spirit beings can't be detained or held anywhere? Does that mean when satan is cast into the LOF he won't be able to be detained there since he is a spirit being? Probably not, right?
Show me where I said that Satan could not be detained somewhere such as the LOF. Good luck with that. But would he be detained somewhere with a literal chain that completely restricts his movement? No. That's my point. You're not recognizing the figurative language there.

The question is, is the bottomless pit a place? Why wouldn't it be? When is the last time anyone has seen locusts(not literal locusts, yet they are obviously something literal, maybe demons. demons are literal) roaming around all over the place tormenting men with their tails? Revelation 9 records that they emerge from the pit. Where are they at in the meantime if the pit is not literal?
You're all over the place here. First, you're claiming that the bottomless pit is a literal place. But, then you switch gears and say that the locusts aren't literal and represent something like demons (or exactly like demons) and I agree with that. But, can you explain to me how non-literal locusts can be literally contained in a literal place? I don't believe that makes any sense. It's clear to me that it's all symbolic rather than a mix of literal and symbolic things. In the case of Revelation 9, the locusts are not literal and neither is the place where the locusts are bound.

Even if the bottomless pit was a literal place of some kind, then it certainly shouldn't be understood in the same sense that you'd understand a literal physical place that would contain literal physical locusts. It would be a spiritual place (since it's a place where Satan and demons are bound) which we should not assume is no different than a physical place that can physically contain physical creatures.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Of course Satan is bound after the Second Coming. Why would that not be true?

Because you do not understand Revelation 20. You have zero corroboration to support your theory about that much-debated chapter.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Most of what you say here makes good sense until one examines it a bit closer by comparing that with Revelation 20:4 and the saints martyred because they didn't worship the beast. Which beast? The same beast Revelation 13 is referring to, obviously. At the time of John receiving these visions though, the beast that is responsible for the martyrdom of the saints recorded in Revelation 20:4, he said it is not, meaning to me, but I can't speak for others, that it was in the pit at the time. And that it was to ascend out of the pit in the future.

which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands(Revelation 20:4)---this is meaning before satan is loosed, it is meaning before satan is even in the pit, meaning when they are initially martyred, and that this martyrdom happens because of this---and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit(Revelation 17:8).

How can you instead have it ascending out of the pit after the thousand years when Revelation 20:4 and Revelation 13 prove otherwise?
Why do we have to tell you things over and over again? This has been explained to you many times. It is YOU who assumes that the beast, the locusts (demons) and Satan are unable to do anything at all while in the bottomless pit. Amils do not see it that way. You act as if we're obligated to explain how our view can work according to YOUR understanding of what it means to be in the pit. No, we are not. So, your questions do not apply to how WE understand what it means to be in the pit which makes your questions pointless and irrelevant from our perspective. I wish you could understand that.

Yeah, I get it that our view can't work if YOUR understanding that being in the pit results in being completely incapacitated. No kidding. You don't have to keep telling us that. Imagine me basically telling you over and over again that your view can't work according to the Amil understanding of what it means for Satan and for the beast to be in the pit? What would you think if I said something obvious like that over and over again?

If you want to make an argument that we'll take seriously then tell us why being bound in the pit has to be understood as being completely incapacitated rather than telling us that our view can't work if being bound in the pit results in being incapacitated, which is obvious.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Please address your false charges against Amils above (#466) before we engage in anything else.
@DavidPT I have to agree that you should address post #466. You clearly have misrepresented Amil a number of times, so I hope you're not denying that you've done that. It's clear that you have and a few clear examples were provided in that post. So, please explain exactly why you misrepresented Amil in those posts, so that we can understand how that happens.
 
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Timtofly

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Because you do not understand Revelation 20. You have zero corroboration to support your theory about that much-debated chapter.
What does your point have to do with the Second Coming? You have Satan out and about before the Second Coming, yet you have no corroboration to that point.
 
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DavidPT

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That is not hard to do. You recently wrongly said:



Is this accurate or false?



Is this accurate or false? When have I ever said this?



Is this accurate or false?


Provide the links to the posts. I want to see what I said in context at the time. I want to see why I said what I did. I need to look at the entire posts not just cherry picked portions. I don't deny I said those things you have quoted. I want to examine those things in context since context counts. You do know how to provide the links to those particular posts, don't you?
 
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sovereigngrace

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Provide the links to the posts. I want to see what I said in context at the time. I want to see why I said what I did. I need to look at the entire posts not just cherry picked portions. I don't deny I said those things you have quoted. I want to examine those things in context since context counts. You do know how to provide the links to those particular posts, don't you?

I am on the road at the moment. If you simply go up to the right hand corner and search in quotes you will get all of them.

I'm sure you will find some justification for these statements.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Provide the links to the posts. I want to see what I said in context at the time. I want to see why I said what I did. I need to look at the entire posts not just cherry picked portions. I don't deny I said those things you have quoted. I want to examine those things in context since context counts. You do know how to provide the links to those particular posts, don't you?
Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

2 Peter 3:10-12. Not when but how?
 
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