Who's free will matters most?

[Curious Atheist]

Many arguments are answered with 'because God allows us free will'. Like trying to reason why God doesn't show himself in physical form anymore. But here is an example:

A man rapes a woman, she is so disturbed she ends up killing herlself.

She had no free will due to the man, who continues to do the same dozens of times in his life time. All the victims commit suicide and therefore go to hell, no questions asked.
The man eventually dies and goes to hell with his victims, he was not tempted by Satan he was just born.

So what do we learn from this? God created all the victims and knew the rapist would do what he did because God knows everything that could ever happen. But doesn't ever intervene, ever without question. Not one time would he make the world a better place.

But in our society we would stop the rapist and take his freedom away whenever we could. Is this not moral according to God. Is it more important to let someone choose whether or not to believe in God than the lives of multiple victims?

Is it never seen as evil to let something happen? In our legal systems can you not be prosecuted for allowing a murder to happen? There has to be times when in-action isn't a good thing to do. But God can only be good? So he has no free will of his own to not act when in-action would be bad. But then bad is only the absense of good (God)....so then do bad things happen only when God isn't there, despite him being everywhere...so he chooses to be abscent whenever something bad might happen?? Why? The thought process to get to an answer is full of contradictions.

 

[BFine]

Many arguments are answered with 'because God allows us free will'. Like trying to reason why God doesn't show himself in physical form anymore.
*How do you know for sure?

But here is an example:

A man rapes a woman, she is so disturbed she ends up killing herlself.
*In 2010 a Colorado rape victim shot and killed her attacker...I'm just adding that for balance.

She had no free will due to the man, who continues to do the same dozens of times in his life time. All the victims commit suicide and therefore go to hell, no questions asked.
*Fact: Not all rape victims kill themselves.
The man eventually dies and goes to hell with his victims, he was not tempted by Satan he was just born.
*The man lived according to the world's standards of which satan is in control of according to the bible.

How do you know all suicide people go to hell?

So what do we learn from this? God created all the victims and knew the rapist would do what he did because God knows everything that could ever happen. But doesn't ever intervene, ever without question.
* You say God doesn't intervene? sure he does.
You didn't add the little "extras" to your story.... you told only the parts that support your views.
You didn't mention that the man & some of the victims had rejected Christ and lived as they pleased. You didn't mention the people who had cautioned the females about being out alone/unarmed or the danger of going into seedy areas etc. You didn't mentioned the "pings" in their consciousness that told them that it wasn't a good idea to let some guy picked them up at the club, or they should not be alone in a certain person's home/car etc. (fact: most rapist and their victims know each other.)

I remember being at the airport during a snowstorm and the flights got canceled. I was trying to convince a young co-ed to go in halves with me for a hotel room, I also asked another woman if she would share the cost. They both said no.
The co-ed got an offer from a real cute guy and she agrees to share his room...I warn her she is putting herself in danger...I said that to her privately. She laughs and tells me I'm being judgmental...she leaves the airport with him and his older friend who picks them up.
I can only hope she is safe.

Not one time would he make the world a better place.
*Your story support your views/beliefs.
We all can tell similar stories...I will do that now.

But in our society we would stop the rapist and take his freedom away whenever we could. Is this not moral according to God. Is it more important to let someone choose whether or not to believe in God than the lives of multiple victims?
*Not according to news media here in BC...some people actually stood around and watched a girl being raped. Some took pictures with their cellphones.
Saying people are basically good is stretching things nowadays.

Is it never seen as evil to let something happen? In our legal systems can you not be prosecuted for allowing a murder to happen?
*Osama bin Laden --When the SEALs entered the room in which bin Laden was hiding, his wife charged them and was shot in the leg, Carney said. Bin Laden was then shot in the chest and head. He was unarmed. [News excerpt taken from ABC newsreel.]

There has to be times when in-action isn't a good thing to do. But God can only be good? So he has no free will of his own to not act when in-action would be bad. But then bad is only the absense of good (God)....so then do bad things happen only when God isn't there, despite him being everywhere...so he chooses to be abscent whenever something bad might happen?? Why? The thought process to get to an answer is full of contradictions.

*How did Jaycee Dugard survive being held captive for 18 yrs.?
She didn't lose her mind, how do you account for that?
Why did the people who knew something was up not do something?
(They all talked a good talk but did nothing.)
Why did the police not dig deeper, especially the ones who
suspected something was up at the Garrido home?
Did you know a policewoman was ignored who reported
something at the Garrido home that could of lead to Jaycee
being found much sooner?
We can speculate until the cows come home.

A true story:
Suicidal man has gun in his hand is about to kill himself , in his last breath he says: Lord if you are there let me know!
Instantly a knock sounds on his door, he opens the door and there's a Christian man who reveals the Lord directed him to come to his home ASAP. The suicidal man breaks down crying and confesses he was about to kill himself when he asked the Lord to let me know you are there. The two men continue talking and the man gets saved and attends church the same church we go to. He tells us how he came to know the Lord and his testimony inspires many.
His life turns around, he gets a job and is able to take care of his family and do some wonderful things in the church.

One more thing...the guy who got saved didn't live in a housing community-- he lived off the main road on his own land. His home isn't visible from the road...so it's not like the man from my church was out walking around the neighborhood inviting folks to come to church.

 

[razeontherock]

Sorting out the apparent contradictions here really isn't so difficult, but must be done. If I might assist, I have to start with the concept of "dominion," which you have left out.

In simplest terms, it means "the ability to do." As in, what dead people don't have. That's the single biggest symptom of death; dead people can't do anything.

So you have to start with the premise that G-d GAVE mankind dominion.

The rapist has more dominion than his victim. And generally, rape is not about sexual attraction, but about sordid desire to control, or exert that very thing. Studies on the subject conclude this, but I'll never understand any of it, not being a rapist.

Crime in general works the same way: a person values their own desire, at the exclusion of at least their intended victim, or possibly everyone else. Dominion means they can do that, as long as they are alive.

trying to reason why God doesn't show himself in physical form anymore.

that's an unrelated tangent, but I need to challenge you to think your thought through. When did G-d ever "show Himself in physical form?" Once you remove the false concept from your thinking, you'll find that G-d does what you poorly allude to MUCH more frequently now.

She had no free will due to the man

Nonsense. In theological terms, free will has nothing to do with this. I'm not sure how you're using the term that this involves free will, can you explain?

Victims often do nothing due to fear, and perpetrators often seek out victims of this type. This is snake-like behavior, and I do think the Bible depicts satan as a snake for this very reason. Training programs teaching people how to resist violent crime are very effective, and largely not because intended victims subdue criminals, but because criminals avoid people with that kind of confidence.

THAT, is free will!

All the victims commit suicide and therefore go to hell, no questions asked.
The man eventually dies and goes to hell with his victims, he was not tempted by Satan he was just born.

You've got some truly horrible assumptions there.

God can only be good? So he has no free will of his own to not act when in-action would be bad.

Back to the top: G-d gave dominion over the earth and everything in it to our species. If you want G-d to stop a crime in progress, make a citizen's arrest.

No contradictions. (Not until you find yourself involved in the US court system, anyway)

 

[elman]

Many arguments are answered with 'because God allows us free will'. Like trying to reason why God doesn't show himself in physical form anymore. But here is an example:

A man rapes a woman, she is so disturbed she ends up killing herlself.

She had no free will due to the man, who continues to do the same dozens of times in his life time. All the victims commit suicide and therefore go to hell, no questions asked.
The man eventually dies and goes to hell with his victims, he was not tempted by Satan he was just born.

So what do we learn from this? God created all the victims and knew the rapist would do what he did because God knows everything that could ever happen. But doesn't ever intervene, ever without question. Not one time would he make the world a better place.

But in our society we would stop the rapist and take his freedom away whenever we could. Is this not moral according to God. Is it more important to let someone choose whether or not to believe in God than the lives of multiple victims?

Is it never seen as evil to let something happen? In our legal systems can you not be prosecuted for allowing a murder to happen? There has to be times when in-action isn't a good thing to do. But God can only be good? So he has no free will of his own to not act when in-action would be bad. But then bad is only the absense of good (God)....so then do bad things happen only when God isn't there, despite him being everywhere...so he chooses to be abscent whenever something bad might happen?? Why? The thought process to get to an answer is full of contradictions.

God is good all the time. There is no hell in the sense that Dante painted it. Suicide is usually a choice. Many of the problems you dream up are based on the assumption this life is all that matters. You might be wrong.

 

[drich0150]

Many arguments are answered with 'because God allows us free will'. Like trying to reason why God doesn't show himself in physical form anymore. But here is an example:

A man rapes a woman, she is so disturbed she ends up killing herself.

She had no free will due to the man, who continues to do the same dozens of times in his life time. All the victims commit suicide and therefore go to hell, no questions asked.

Who says so? Do you or they have scriptural backing that suicide is the unforgivable sin? Because my bible reads differently.

The man eventually dies and goes to hell with his victims, he was not tempted by Satan he was just born.

That's if He doesn't find Christ and get forgiveness of His sins.

So what do we learn from this? God created all the victims and knew the rapist would do what he did because God knows everything that could ever happen. But doesn't ever intervene, ever without question. Not one time would he make the world a better place.

So you believe that everyman ever set out to rape a woman did so? If this were true then I believe their would be a woman alive who didn't get raped.

But in our society we would stop the rapist and take his freedom away whenever we could. Is this not moral according to God.

Where do you get this stuff? You do know that the bible does endorse state sanctioned imprisonment?

Is it more important to let someone choose whether or not to believe in God than the lives of multiple victims?

Choice in this life is the prevailing percept.

Is it never seen as evil to let something happen?

Sin is anything not in the expressed will of God.
Evil is a malicious intent to commit sin.

So it truly depends on why one allows evil to happen.

In our legal systems can you not be prosecuted for allowing a murder to happen? There has to be times when in-action isn't a good thing to do. But God can only be good? So he has no free will of his own to not act when in-action would be bad. But then bad is only the absence of good (God)....so then do bad things happen only when God isn't there, despite him being everywhere...so he chooses to be absent whenever something bad might happen?? Why? The thought process to get to an answer is full of contradictions.

[/QUOTE]Brb

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

Many arguments are answered with 'because God allows us free will'. Like trying to reason why God doesn't show himself in physical form anymore. But here is an example:

A man rapes a woman, she is so disturbed she ends up killing herlself.

She had no free will due to the man, who continues to do the same dozens of times in his life time. All the victims commit suicide and therefore go to hell, no questions asked.
The man eventually dies and goes to hell with his victims, he was not tempted by Satan he was just born.

So what do we learn from this? God created all the victims and knew the rapist would do what he did because God knows everything that could ever happen. But doesn't ever intervene, ever without question. Not one time would he make the world a better place.

But in our society we would stop the rapist and take his freedom away whenever we could. Is this not moral according to God. Is it more important to let someone choose whether or not to believe in God than the lives of multiple victims?

Is it never seen as evil to let something happen? In our legal systems can you not be prosecuted for allowing a murder to happen? There has to be times when in-action isn't a good thing to do. But God can only be good? So he has no free will of his own to not act when in-action would be bad. But then bad is only the absense of good (God)....so then do bad things happen only when God isn't there, despite him being everywhere...so he chooses to be abscent whenever something bad might happen?? Why? The thought process to get to an answer is full of contradictions.

That's possibly the most convoluted story ever. What are you even asking?

All your moral dilemmas involve death and you complain that God let them die in some horrible fashion with the foreknowledge that they would die.

Take away the "horrible fashion" bit and you've just included everyone on Earth. Death is part of life. God "letting people die" does not make him evil.

Everyone dies.

Also, theological free will and a woman's lack of control while being raped are entirely different things.

 

[Curious Atheist]

Christians are very pedantic when they read a question...

My story is purely hypothetical. I am merely asking why it is more important for a rapist destined for hell to have the free will to not believe in God.
Freedom can be taken away by someone who is stronger such as God. Or the freedom of the woman taken away by a physically stronger man. Her free will to not be raped or hurt has been taken away. Your arguments try to imply she could have made a different choice with hindsight either not to get into the situation to begin with or learn how to deal with the situation. But this irrelevant to the story and I wouldn't ever blame the victim! Call me a godless heathen but I think that is immoral.


Am I wrong in thinking that it is a sin to kill yourself? As you are rejecting God's gift of life? If it isn't why not just kill yourselves and go straight to heaven??

 

[addo]

I think significant free will could partially be an answer. God doesn't merely want us to have 'free will', but significant free will. That is, if we make important decisions, they should also have big consequences, whether good or bad. In your example an injustice occurs, in that there is a victim of someone's free will. But shall God stop or cancel all the bad consequences of someone's actions? No, because we have significant free will, in which we can make actions that can have severe consequences. Free will is of no use if you just put a person in a locked room where his choices don't have important consequences. He may hit the wall, shout very loud, etc. but there are no important consequences of his actions. On the other hand God made us social being. We live in a society together with other people and our choices can have big consequences -whether good or bad- that can often affect other people as well.

 

[Curious Atheist]

I think significant free will could partially be an answer. God doesn't merely want us to have 'free will', but significant free will. That is, if we make important decisions, they should also have big consequences, whether good or bad. In your example an injustice occurs, in that there is a victim of someone's free will. But shall God stop or cancel all the bad consequences of someone's actions? No, because we have significant free will, in which we can make actions that can have severe consequences. Free will is of no use if you just put a person in a locked room where his choices don't have important consequences. He may hit the wall, shout very loud, etc. but there are no important consequences of his actions. On the other hand God made us social being. We live in a society together with other people and our choices can have big consequences -whether good or bad- that can often affect other people as well.

So we are more powerful than God? I can turn myself in to an agent of Satan if I wanted to and God can't stop me? If I am going to hell anyway I may as well carry on killing and causing misery, sending people to hell with me. All my victims would be punished in the same way I am if they weren't lucky enough to be born in a Christian country in the right year and followed all the rules 100%.
God doesn't sound like a very nice person, not at all.

 

[razeontherock]

My story is purely hypothetical. I am merely asking why it is more important for a rapist destined for hell to have the free will to not believe in God.

More important than what? There is no less important in your hypothetical.

Freedom can be taken away by someone who is stronger such as God. Or the freedom of the woman taken away by a physically stronger man. Her free will to not be raped or hurt has been taken away.

No, her "free will" has not been taken away. This is not at all what free will means. Her freedom has been taken away, certainly.

The only direct intervention G-d could do, would be to strike the perp dead, immediately bringing him to Judgment for his sin with no possibility of Mercy. When atheists criticize G-d as you are doing, you never consider the ramifications of your supposedly superior intellect.

If you want G-d involved in some better way, make a citizen's arrest or better yet become a cop. A good cop. That is G-d's direct involvement!

Your arguments try to imply she could have made a different choice with hindsight either not to get into the situation to begin with or learn how to deal with the situation.

No one here has blamed the victim, but you do pretend her free will was instantly removed as though any perp were a surgeon. Again, criminals rarely overpower their intended victim; instead, they look for people they think will not resist.

 

[razeontherock]

So we are more powerful than God?

More powerful? No. Do we have more dominion, in the here and now? YES. G-d chose to give mankind dominion; He cannot take that back. You have yet to reflect on this, regardless of how many times I have pointed out to you that it is fundamental to every scenario you have posted.

I can turn myself in to an agent of Satan if I wanted to and God can't stop me?

Your life is but a vapor.

If I am going to hell anyway I may as well carry on killing and causing misery, sending people to hell with me. All my victims would be punished in the same way I am

This reads as though you recognize you are an agent of satan already. Do you realize what that entails? It doesn't have to be anything like killing and intentionally causing misery. And your idea that all in hell are punished with the same severity is false.

if they weren't lucky enough to be born in a Christian country in the right year and followed all the rules 100%.

These are not the requirements for Salvation but you new that already, right?

 

[drich0150]

My story is purely hypothetical. I am merely asking why it is more important for a rapist destined for hell to have the free will to not believe in God.

Where would righteousness be in only allowing certain people "free will" and denying others of it?

Freedom can be taken away by someone who is stronger such as God.

Because if one can do such a thing, you believe it to be required? What governing principle should one adhere to when deciding who to take free will from?

Or the freedom of the woman taken away by a physically stronger man. Her free will to not be raped or hurt has been taken away.

Actually no. She still has free will as the bible describes it. You are describing freedom of choice. "Free Will" as the bible describes and freedom of choice are not the same thing. Why because true "Freedom of choice" is a philosophical illusion. No one has complete freedom of Choice. free will is the ability to be outside of the expressed will of God.

Am I wrong in thinking that it is a sin to kill yourself?

It is a sin. It's not the unforgivable sin.

As you are rejecting God's gift of life? If it isn't why not just kill yourselves and go straight to heaven??

What of His charge to go out into the world and share the gospel? If all who find God, kills themselves then who would be left to share the good news?

 

[Emmy]

Dear CuriousAtheist. I say this humbly and with love. You are obviously not ready yet, to trust God and His Love for you, and you cannot, or will not see. Even if you do not like me to, I shall put you on my prayer-list. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.