Whodunnit?

tall73 · Apr 23, 2006

StPaul said:
I don't know about the 10 Commandments, but he did say something regarding Sabbath:

Col. 2:16-17
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat or in drink, or in respect of a festival day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the body is of Christ. "

I agree it is the weekly Sabbath. There is a progression from the Yearly to Monthly to weekly, which parallels the OT accounts. Many sabbatarian scholars recognize this.

However, if you read just what it says they were being judged in their observance. The context shows that they were judging them on the keeping of these days by turning them into a legalistic routine--the very thing Jesus was against with the pharisees.They had imposed self abasement, worshiping of angels, and other elements into their observance, and were ridiculingthose who did not follow it. If you look earlier in Col. you see that they were involved in philosophy and the basic elements of the world. They were essentially blending rigorous observance of the Jewish days with pagan elements.

Col 2:18 Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind,
Col 2:19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.
Col 2:20 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations--
Col 2:21 "Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch"
Col 2:22 (referring to things that all perish as they are used)--according to human precepts and teachings?
Col 2:23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.

The problem was not with the God-made days, but with the human teachings.

The same is true in Galatians.

Gal 4:8 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods.
Gal 4:9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more?
Gal 4:10 You observe days and months and seasons and years!
Gal 4:11 I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain.

The same issue with days and months and seasons and years is there (though a slightly different formula), but notice that here it is spelled out that they are turning back to their OLD way of worship. They are turning back to a legalistic form of what they used to worship, blending some of their old pagan ways with Jewish customs.

I mean,... if it was the 'Sabbath' aspect of it that was so important to God, tell me why He would be displeased with it as Isaiah gives as an account of prophesy?

Isaiah 1:13:
"Offer sacrifice no more in vain: incense is an abomination to me. The new moons, and the sabbaths, and other festivals I will not abide, your assemblies are wicked. "

God Bless!

The problem here was not with the Sabbath or Jesus would not have kept the Sabbath years later. This interpretation that you have given was used by the epistle of Barnabas, but is a misunderstanding of the context.

God was showing his displeasure with the hypocritical religious acts of a people who had turned away from Him. Their ceremonies meant nothing if they were breaking the covenant all week long.

ISA 1:11 "The multitude of your sacrifices--
what are they to me?" says the LORD.
"I have more than enough of burnt offerings,
of rams and the fat of fattened animals;
I have no pleasure
in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.

ISA 1:12 When you come to appear before me,
who has asked this of you,
this trampling of my courts?

ISA 1:13 Stop bringing meaningless offerings!
Your incense is detestable to me.
New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations--
I cannot bear your evil assemblies.

ISA 1:14 Your New Moon festivals and your appointed feasts
my soul hates.
They have become a burden to me;
I am weary of bearing them.

ISA 1:15 When you spread out your hands in prayer,
I will hide my eyes from you;
even if you offer many prayers,
I will not listen.
Your hands are full of blood;

ISA 1:16 wash and make yourselves clean.
Take your evil deeds
out of my sight!
Stop doing wrong,

ISA 1:17 learn to do right!
Seek justice,
encourage the oppressed.
Defend the cause of the fatherless,
plead the case of the widow.

God created the Sabbath. Not the Jews. But they were making a mockery of it and he said that the way they lived he would not be impressed by their ceremonial acts. He was not displeased with His side of the covenant, but with theirs. They agreed to keep the law, and He agreed to make them a nation of priests and to bless them. Instead they turned away, so He said not to bother with these shows.

StPaul · Apr 23, 2006

tall73 said:
God created the Sabbath. Not the Jews. But they were making a mockery of it and he said that the way they lived he would not be impressed by their ceremonial acts. He was not displeased with His side of the covenant, but with theirs. They agreed to keep the law, and He agreed to make them a nation of priests and to bless them. Instead they turned away, so He said not to bother with these shows.

If then perfection was by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchisedech, and not be called according to the order of Aaron?

For the priesthood being translated, it is necessary that a translation also be made of the law. For he, of whom these things are spoken, is of another tribe, of which no one attended on the altar. For it is evident that our Lord sprung out of Juda: in which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priests.

And it is yet far more evident: if according to the similitude of Melchisedech there ariseth another priest, who is made not according to the law of a carnal commandment, but according to the power of an indissoluble life: For he testifieth: Thou art a priest for ever, according to the order of Melchisedech.

There is indeed a setting aside of the former commandment, because of the weakness and unprofitableness thereof: (For the law brought nothing to perfection,) but a bringing in of a better hope, by which we draw nigh to God.

tall73 · Apr 23, 2006

StPaul said:
If then perfection was by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchisedech, and not be called according to the order of Aaron?

For the priesthood being translated, it is necessary that a translation also be made of the law. For he, of whom these things are spoken, is of another tribe, of which no one attended on the altar. For it is evident that our Lord sprung out of Juda: in which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priests.

And it is yet far more evident: if according to the similitude of Melchisedech there ariseth another priest, who is made not according to the law of a carnal commandment, but according to the power of an indissoluble life: For he testifieth: Thou art a priest for ever, according to the order of Melchisedech.

There is indeed a setting aside of the former commandment, because of the weakness and unprofitableness thereof: (For the law brought nothing to perfection,) but a bringing in of a better hope, by which we draw nigh to God.

Jesus is the true High Priest. And He was also the true sacrifice. That has nothing to do with Isaiah's comment.

Did Jesus keep the Sabbath? Then there is no reason to say that God did away with it back in the time of Isaiah. Even if you hold that they stopped keeping it later, it would have to be after the time of Jesus. The disciples likewise rested on the commandment after Jesus' death.

Now if you are saying that the previous commandments were not given by God, there is no proof of that whatsoever.

God clearly gave the Sabbath and other feasts. And He set up the sacrificial system. His problem with the feasts at that time was the people's hearts.

As to the changing of the law, what was the change?

Heb 7:12 For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.
Heb 7:13 For the one of whom these things are spoken belonged to another tribe, from which no one has ever served at the altar.
Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, and in connection with that tribe Moses said nothing about priests.
Heb 7:15 This becomes even more evident when another priest arises in the likeness of Melchizedek,
Heb 7:16 who has become a priest, not on the basis of a legal requirement concerning bodily descent, but by the power of an indestructible life.
Heb 7:17 For it is witnessed of him, "You are a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek."
Heb 7:18 On the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness
Heb 7:19 (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.
Heb 7:20 And it was not without an oath. For those who formerly became priests were made such without an oath,
Heb 7:21 but this one was made a priest with an oath by the one who said to him: "The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind, 'You are a priest forever.'"
Heb 7:22 This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant.
Heb 7:23 The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office,
Heb 7:24 but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever.
Heb 7:25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.
Heb 7:26 For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens.
Heb 7:27 He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself.
Heb 7:28 For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever.

a. The priesthood changed.

b. The sacrifice was given.

c. A new covenant was made.

The change made was in the priesthood, who would receive it.

As to the covenants themselves, the next chapter says why the covenant was changed, and what was changed.

Heb 8:6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.
Heb 8:8 For he finds fault with them when he says: "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
Heb 8:9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more."
Heb 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

The covenant was an agreement on both sides. Previously God had made the covenant with them that they would keep His commands and He would bless them, etc.

But (blue) the promises in the old covenant were bad. Now on who's part were they bad? Obviously not on God's part.

(red) God found fault with the people who did not keep their promises in the covenant.

(green) So God made a new agreement. And this time He makes all the promises and writes the LAW on the heart. So is the law eliminated? No, it is internalized. And just as Jesus spoke of not lusting, not hating, etc. it goes beyond the letter. It is lived out as we walk by the Spirit.

The covenant is based on better promises, on the promises of God which cannot fail.

StPaul · Apr 23, 2006

tall73 said:
Did Jesus keep the Sabbath?

Let us fear therefore lest the promise being left of entering into his rest, any of you should be thought to be wanting. For unto us also it hath been declared, in like manner as unto them. But the word of hearing did not profit them, not being mixed with faith of those things they heard. For we, who have believed, shall enter into rest; as he said: As I have sworn in my wrath; If they shall enter into my rest; and this indeed when the works from the foundation of the world were finished. For in a certain place he spoke of the seventh day thus: And God rested the seventh day from all his works. And in this place again: If they shall enter into my rest.

Seeing then it remaineth that some are to enter into it, and they, to whom it was first preached, did not enter because of unbelief: Again he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, Today, after so long a time, as it is above said: Today if you shall hear his voice, harden not your hearts. For if Jesus had given them rest, he would never have afterwards spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a day of rest for the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, the same also hath rested from his works, as God did from his.

It's pretty clear to me that Sunday (the 'other' day) is the New Sabbath because it is the day that we rest in Him.

God Bless!

BrightCandle · Apr 23, 2006

StPaul said:
Let us fear therefore lest the promise being left of entering into his rest, any of you should be thought to be wanting. For unto us also it hath been declared, in like manner as unto them. But the word of hearing did not profit them, not being mixed with faith of those things they heard. For we, who have believed, shall enter into rest; as he said: As I have sworn in my wrath; If they shall enter into my rest; and this indeed when the works from the foundation of the world were finished. For in a certain place he spoke of the seventh day thus: And God rested the seventh day from all his works. And in this place again: If they shall enter into my rest.

Seeing then it remaineth that some are to enter into it, and they, to whom it was first preached, did not enter because of unbelief: Again he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, Today, after so long a time, as it is above said: Today if you shall hear his voice, harden not your hearts. For if Jesus had given them rest, he would never have afterwards spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a day of rest for the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, the same also hath rested from his works, as God did from his.

It's pretty clear to me that Sunday (the 'other' day) is the New Sabbath because it is the day that we rest in Him.

God Bless!

If we are followers of Jesus we will walk as He walked, not just talk the talk. Jesus' walk included honoring and keeping over 1,000 literal 7th day Sabbaths! If Jesus is our example, and keeping the Sabbath was important enough for Jesus and Apostles, why is it not good enough for you to keep in a literal way on the 7th day in 2006?

The books of Hebrews only provides more evidence in the NT, that the literal 7th day Sabbath would still be there for God's true people in the last days. To say that Hebrews 4 was talking about Sunday or the 1st day is pure conjecture. The only day of week set aside as holy by God is the 7th day. So why not "rest" on the day that Jesus said to "Remember"?

StPaul · Apr 24, 2006

BrightCandle said:
So why not "rest" on the day that Jesus said to "Remember"?

Maybe because insisting that the New Sabbath is not Sunday is just as much conjecture as insisting that the New Sabbath is Sunday.

*refer to post #37 and responses thereof*

God Bless!

BrightCandle · Apr 24, 2006

StPaul said:
Maybe because insisting that the New Sabbath is not Sunday is just as much conjecture as insisting that the New Sabbath is Sunday.

*refer to post #37 and responses thereof*

God Bless!

The clincher is that there is a clear Commandment from Jesus to keep the 7th day holy, while there is no new or old Commandment to keep the the 1st day holy. That explodes the myth of Sunday keeping!

Oblio · Apr 24, 2006

THe Holy Apostle Luke said:
And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother. And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.

So, the ruler did not mention the Sabbath, and did Jesus correct him that he lacked in that practice ?

Our Lord Jesus Christ said:
Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
(Luk 18:18-22 KJVA)

Yep, real clear.

tall73 · Apr 24, 2006

StPaul said:
Let us fear therefore lest the promise being left of entering into his rest, any of you should be thought to be wanting. For unto us also it hath been declared, in like manner as unto them. But the word of hearing did not profit them, not being mixed with faith of those things they heard. For we, who have believed, shall enter into rest; as he said: As I have sworn in my wrath; If they shall enter into my rest; and this indeed when the works from the foundation of the world were finished. For in a certain place he spoke of the seventh day thus: And God rested the seventh day from all his works. And in this place again: If they shall enter into my rest.

Seeing then it remaineth that some are to enter into it, and they, to whom it was first preached, did not enter because of unbelief: Again he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, Today, after so long a time, as it is above said: Today if you shall hear his voice, harden not your hearts. For if Jesus had given them rest, he would never have afterwards spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a day of rest for the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, the same also hath rested from his works, as God did from his.

It's pretty clear to me that Sunday (the 'other' day) is the New Sabbath because it is the day that we rest in Him.

God Bless!

Sunday is not the other day. And his main point is not about the Sabbath in this passage but about salvation and not falling away.

The new day is TODAY, and if you hear His voice, do not harden your heart.

Examine the context and we can go over it some more.

tall73 · Apr 24, 2006

StPaul said:
Maybe because insisting that the New Sabbath is not Sunday is just as much conjecture as insisting that the New Sabbath is Sunday.

*refer to post #37 and responses thereof*

God Bless!

I responded at length to post 37. Feel free to analyze my response.

As to conjecture, there is a clear commandment regarding Sabbath and no commandment regarding Sunday.

If the earliest evidnence you have of Sunday is Ignatius, Justin and Barnabas then you are a number of years from proving Sunday was apostolic.

Even if you take the reference in the Didache which is by no means clear, and you assume an early date, that still puts the keeping of Sunday around 70 A.D.

Contrast this with the fact that Paul, when looking for Christians to persecute, went to the synagogues where the Christians were meeting until they were put out, and I think you will see which was apostolic.

But even apart from timing issues, Sunday will never be the new Sabbath. The Sabbath and Sunday were both kept by the church, and were distinct one from another.

The Laodicean council began to blur the lines a bit there, and the trend continued. But Sunday did not have the resting elements assoicated with it that Sabbath did, nor was its significance the same.

StPaul · Apr 24, 2006

tall73 said:
Sunday is not the other day. And his main point is not about the Sabbath in this passage but about salvation and not falling away.

The new day is TODAY, and if you hear His voice, do not harden your heart.

Examine the context and we can go over it some more.

Examine the context so that you can interpret for me?

Why should I trust your personal interpretation over my personal interpretation especially since I have "prayed that the Holy Spirit guide me in all of my interpretation of Scriptures"....

Are you trying to say that your Holy Spirit is better than mine?

God Bless!

tall73 · Apr 24, 2006

Oblio said:
So, the ruler did not mention the Sabbath, and did Jesus correct him that he lacked in that practice ?

Yep, real clear.

Nor did he mention any of the other commandments that referred to God.

One can assume both Jesus and the ruler were familiar with them.

Oblio · Apr 24, 2006

One can assume both Jesus and the ruler were familiar with them.

Perhaps you can, but what cannot be asssumed is that keeping the Sabbath has any bearing on salvation.

ThreeAM · Apr 24, 2006

StPaul said:
Examine the context so that you can interpret for me?

Why should I trust your personal interpretation over my personal interpretation especially since I have "prayed that the Holy Spirit guide me in all of my interpretation of Scriptures"....

Are you trying to say that your Holy Spirit is better than mine?

God Bless!

The Holy Spirit often works through humans {ie. preachers teachers etc.} to help us. You should listen to Tall73.

ThreeAM · Apr 24, 2006

Oblio said:
Perhaps you can, but what cannot be asssumed is that keeping the Sabbath has any bearing on salvation.

It is a sure thing that those who are saved will keep the Sabbath eventually. If you are saved you will want to obey Christ.

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jo 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Oblio · Apr 24, 2006

The problem here is the equivocation of keeping His copmmandments with Judaic Sabbath legalism.

Redwolf · Apr 24, 2006

Oblio said:
The problem here is the equivocation of keeping His copmmandments with Judaic Sabbath legalism.

Jewish practices are not the issue. The eternalness of the Ten Commandments is.
Christ rebuked them for making the Sabbath a burden and told them it was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. He did not say it is no longer in effect. Far from it.

Oblio · Apr 24, 2006

Then tell us plainly what is in effect.

No more nebulous follow Jesus example ... etc. Tell us plainly what we are to do to keep your Sabbath laws ?

ThreeAM · Apr 24, 2006

Oblio said:
The problem here is the equivocation of keeping His copmmandments with Judaic Sabbath legalism.

Not a problem I'm not a Jew.

Veritas · Apr 24, 2006

Oh no! Not another Saturday Sabbath thread?

Whodunnit?

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