who wrote the Desire of Ages-

[djconklin]

I noticed that even Dr. Veltman referred to hearsay that was circulating in his day

Such as?

Incidentally, I believe Ellen White to be a legalist who did a poor job of portraying the magnificent doctrine of justification by faith.

Actually, she taught righteousness by faith--see Jones and Waggoner on the issue. She never taught that we can be saved by our own works.
===
Two good books to read:

1) Macfarlane, Robert Original Copy: Plagiarism and Originality in Nineteenth-Century Literature. (OUP, 2007).

[A must read book by anyone interested in the plagiarism question. He shows how various authors during the period 1859-1900 wrestled with what it meant to be an original author, the questions of originality and plagiarism were examined. The extreme views of originality were rejected, as were the plagiarism hunters who didn't understand that some borrowing was always necessary for communication. The number of weekly rose from 300 in 1800 to 6,000 in 1900.]

2) Edwards, W. A. Plagiarism: An Essay on Good and Bad Borrowing. (1933).

"... The practice of Homer, Sophocles, Bach, Burns, and Molière [and Shakespeare] forces us to realize that borrowing may be the foundation of great art, that the mere fact of borrowing in itself tells us nothing. We must go further and ask what use has been made of the borrowed material ..." (pg. 6). "And before we decide that a poet or dramatist is thieving we had better make sure that he is not using a contemporary common-place or convention" (pg. 65). [In EGW's case the kind of study that Dr. Veltman recommended would tell us if she had violated the conventions of her day.] "Source-hunters are usually too easily satisfied" (pg. 82). [This is because they are typically novices in the field of literature (see Pollock's remark about "tyro's") and haven't thought things through as to the various possibilities.] "They seem to have little understanding of how poets may borrow without forfeiting their integrity" (pg. 83). "... those public nuisances who read contemporary encyclopedias ... in order "to be curious in cavilling and propounding captious questions, thereby to show the singularity of their wisedomes"" (pgs. 102-3). "When an artist can so "translate" and transform his borrowings we must revise our notions of borrowing, and admit that all borrowing cannot be condemned. On the contrary, there are times when it leads to achievements of the highest order" (pg. 113). Montaigne: "I make others say what I am not able to say so well myself" (pg. 117).

 

[Adventist Dissident]

ummm not exactly, however thank you for clarifying how you define the terms....

exactly how do you stormy do you define the term? that is moderate

 

[djconklin]

Interesting quotes on plagiarism:

"Critics and journalists--chiefly it is true, of the baser sort--gather around him and yelp at his heels, shrieking "Stop, plagiarist!" as if he were running away with their ideas ..."
"... there are people who are more deserving of censure than the plagiarist himself, and they are the people who hunt him down and persecute him. We have infinitely more sympathy for the man in the pillory than for the rabble that pelt him--the one may have provoked our dislike, but the other provokes our loathing." page 305
"We are getting weary of this cry of plagiarism. ... the outcry of theft does not proceed, as a rule, from those whose thunder has been stolen, but from people who have no thunder that is worth stealing. It is the easiest form of criticism to accuse a man of want of originality, and it is one that commends itself especially to little minds." pg. 306

Anon., "The Cry of Plagiarism," The Spectator (Feb. 28, 1891): 305-6. Note the date.

 

[djconklin]

Here's some quotes from a journal article I recently finished reading:

'Show that your pigs are fat, not what they fed upon' ... "Using fat hogs as a figure of speech for popular authors ...

Human nature is such that we cannot brook superiority with patience, and, of course, in all ages of the world excellence of every kind has always been subjected to a severe ordeal of criticism. ...

A charge of plagiarism against an author is considered as pretty sure evidence of his superiority as a writer. It is an indirect confession of his fatness; and evinces a disposition on the part of the critic who makes the charge, to prove that it was dishonestly acquired. Charges of this kind most frequently come from young men of small reading and little experience" (pg. 331).

"Of course it is necessary that nature should have furnished a tolerably broad and capacious foundation for mental fatness to be laid upon. It is impossible to make a very fat hog of a Guinea pig" (pg. 333).

"'Books, books,' says Bulwer; 'magnets to which all iron minds insensibly move.' Minds of a softer metal, of a less investigating character, do not move in that direction. The mind grows by what it feeds upon, and no man can be an original thinker without a great deal of knowledge" (pg. 333).

"Sir Walter Scott was always esteemed an original writer, but Lord Jeffrey, in reviewing his works, said: 'Even in him, the traces of imitation are obvious and abudnant.'" (pg. 336).

Mitchell, A. "Plagiarism," The Knickerbocker 63/4 (April 1954): 331-6.

 

[djconklin]

Terry, Richard "'Plagiarism': A Literary Concept in England to 1775," English (Spring 2007): 1-16.

"As long ago as classical Greece, we can find [a] lively discussion of the practical distinction between acceptable and culpable forms of literary borrowing ..." (page 1).

The critics can't tell us about this distinction because they are totally unaware that acceptable borrowing even exists.

 

[Mankin]

A bit of an unfounded argument based on hearsay. I would not be quick to assume anything about who the writer was to the Desire of Ages.

 

[djconklin]

A bit of an unfounded argument based on hearsay.

Short, sweet and to the point! I like that!

 

[Mankin]

^Thanks.

I also fail to see the point of this thread. Whatever your position on EGW is, you have to agree that this argument is grasping at straws.

It would be like if someone suggested Leo Tolstey never wrote The Kingdom of God is in You based on a bit of inconclusive information from a third source.

Also, it brings up the question, why would she lie about writing a book? And if one book is not written by her, it would be probable that she didn't write any of the books. However finding evidence for such a claim would be extremely difficult. Is EGW guilty of some plagarism in the modern vision of the word? Yes. Guilty of not writing any of her books? Very unlikely.

 

[sentipente]

Five pages? Unbelievable.

 

[djconklin]

Five pages? Unbelievable.

All for a claim that should never even have seen the light of day. You are correct: unbelievable. Some people will believe anything but the truth.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Also, it brings up the question, why would she lie about writing a book?

Very simply, Money, Power and Status. Ellen white was very influential and a very powerful figure in adventism and espically for a woman in the 19th and early 20th centruy. Women of that era did not enjoy the power the EGW had. This is something that you being young cannot appreciate. you world has alway promoted women rights and inclusiveness. your lack of experiance and lack of understanding of history and human nature is coming through. People are basicly selfish Mankin. They will do what ever it takes to promote themselves. protect themselve and justify themselves. even at the expense of others.

And if one book is not written by her, it would be probable that she didn't write any of the books.

you hit it right on the head. there has been a stench srounding the source of her witing since there inception. Marion Davis claimed to author some of the books, Fanny Bolton claimed to author some of the books, washburn and Crisler claiming to write some of her books, We know that someone finished Prophets and Kings, besides EGW. Are you beginning to see a pattern???

However finding evidence for such a claim would be extremely difficult.

how would you know did you look?

Is EGW guilty of some plagarism in the modern vision of the word? Yes. Guilty of not writing any of her books? Very unlikely.

and exactly how did you come to this conclusion? was it the hours of reading you did, the thousands of pages you studied or was it the desire to fit in with those around you???

 

[Mankin]

Yes I understand the nature of people's selfishness and I am aware of the fact that during her times, women were disdained. There is no reason to talk to me as if I'm a mewling infant. You also assume I want to fit in with the posters here when I didn't even read the posts after yours, save for one by conklin.

And how do you know that these people aren't lying? You present no documentation at all in your opening post. If a woman wrote a complex book during those times, it is more likely that it would be questioned whether or not she wrote the book. You assume that she did not write the book cut claimed that she did in order to gain social status(when in fact her religious ideas would have lowered her status among mainstream Protestants). Yet, if she did not write any of her books, it would have been much more likely that she would have been debunked earlier considering the fact that women were considered inferior during those times.

My point is, from reading your post, your claim seems to be the haphazard musings from a third party source.

And to your question, I don't have the time or desire to read through thousands of pages of EGW and commentaries. I'll just stick to People's History of the United States thank you.

 

[Mankin]

If someone posted a haphazard theory about George Bush, I would question this said theory regardless of the fact that I strongly dislike George Bush.

We can assume that Tolstoy never wrote War and Peace if we take your example. In fact, if we take your example to the extreme, we can't assume any famous authors wrote any of their pieces of literature.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Nice Rant Mankin,



If you look at the op you will notice that it is open for discussion.

who wrote the Desire of Ages-
originally posted, in fromer adventist fellowship, i thought it was really good. this was posted by Colleen Tinker.

I received a letter this week from a Proclamation! reader/supporter. This person, whose identity I will protect, has a familial connection with Elder Washburn, one of the pioneer Adventist preachers of whom some of you no doubt remember hearing.

This person said that several years ago, an elder family member gave this person a box of letters to read. They had been written by Elder Washburn. I will quote the last two paragraphs of this person's letter:

"In the letters he wrote about [the] 1888 meeting when Jones and Waggoner taught, and SDA pastors rejected Righteousness by Faith—but he and Mrs. White did not. Also, he told about Mrs. White asking him and an Elder Crisler to write research papers on the life of Christ. They did and footnoted all the books they used. He said to his surprise, that big research paper was published, had Mrs White's name on it, and was called, The Desire of Ages.

"The letters were later burned by [another family member] so no one would know what they said. But I had read them all."

I find this letter fascinating—I thought you all might, also.
Colleen
​

If you will notice Mankin that the claim to prophetic authority is made with out foundation. you are shifting the burden. I do not have to prove that ellen is inspired you do. I have given my objections as to why I don't believe it. now it's up to you to convice me other wise. I used to be a believer, because of the evidence I now am not. your move. why should I not believe them. Even the denomination has said she borrowed & Copied. you can argue all you want the legalities, of weather she knew or did not know it was write to copy. I think that is a redherring. that is a direct admission that her wirtings were copied, They just did not know better. which is just laughable. considering they copywrited all of EGW's writings and all the review and hearld articles. this was a business. they knew what they were doing.

 

[Mankin]

You assume too much icy. I was never arguing whether or not she was inspired but whether or not she wrote the DOA. If you want to start a thread on her inspiration then by all means do so.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

You assume too much icy. I was never arguing whether or not she was inspired but whether or not she wrote the DOA. If you want to start a thread on her inspiration then by all means do so.

the premise of the post is that she is not inspired and we are looking at evidece to suppor that. This is one such peice. sorry you missed that.

 

[ListenerFriendly]

I'll just clear everything up here and now. I wrote the Desire of Ages in a former life... I admit it--reincarnation is no joke!

PEACE

 

[djconklin]

Just found today that William Hanna self-plagiarized an entire chapter from a book he wrote the year before!

 

[djconklin]

the premise of the post is that she is not inspired and we are looking at evidece to suppor that. This is one such peice. sorry you missed that.

Unsubstantiated hear-say isn't evidence. If you watch more TV shows like Law & Order, the various CSI shows, or on cable Forensic files then you will learn what constitutes as evidence and what does not.

 

[djconklin]

Even the denomination has said she borrowed & Copied. you can argue all you want the legalities, of weather she knew or did not know it was write to copy. I think that is a redherring. that is a direct admission that her wirtings were copied, They just did not know better.

There's no problem with borrowing per se. The questions you need to ask are: How much? and What was done with what was borrowed? See Macfarlane's book Original Copy. He looked at how 6 authors from the time handled the questions. As long as you didn't borrow too much, and/or put what you did borrow into a new setting, and/or improved on what you borrowed then it was acceptable.

They also didn't have any standards for how to cite one's sources. So, in 1917 (EGW died in 1915) J. Paterson wrote a book on the life of Paul and he borrowed from Conybeare and Howson and from Farrar without putting their material in quotes or telling the reader where he got the wording from. And he had two doctorates: one in law and the other in literature. So, if anyone knew what was an acceptable practice for the day it was him.